Poker Is Not A Crime

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Poker Is Not A Crime

Postby Sparrowhawk » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:14 am

"♫ You Gotta' Know When to Hold 'Em. Know When to Fold 'Em. Know When to Walk Away. Know When to Get the f*** on the Floor and Put Your Hands on Your Head...♫"

Yeah, let's keep our law enforcement focus on marijuana, poker and illegal immigrants. It's not like we have murder, rape, pedophilia and gang warfare to worry about. SWAT teams definitely need to be utilized and National Guard forces mobilized for the enforcement of drug, gambling and other vice laws instead of violent crime.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill

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Postby anonshadow » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:39 am

Well, you know, worrying about moral safety is much more important than worrying about actual safety, isn't it?

That's absolutely ridiculous.



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Postby Sparrowhawk » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:23 am

That about sums it up. The moral sensitivities of a vocal minority taking precedence over the objective enforcement of public safety.

Yet "Protect and Serve" will still be the mantra of the coming police state.

The State will never cease its efforts to control the behavior of consenting adults, whether it be games, sex, use of chemicals ingested or otherwise, etc. I get a lot of static from people when I rant and rail against things that they perceive as being minor, like this instance of poker crackdowns, yet most just can't seem to wrap their heads around the big-picture goals being actively pursued by State interests. Every infringement on the freedom of action of consenting individuals is another step down the quick dark path of totalitarianism. Even the strongest of free democracies is not immune to the subtle tendrils of statism, and one of the easiest methods to desensitize even the most well-informed and active citizen (and let's face it, most Americans aren't) to the curbing of freedom is to target these kinds of activities. It never ceases to amaze me how dull my fellow citizens are, and I'm no genius by a long-shot.

Poker is a f****** game, one that people play (and pay for) by choice, for their own amusement/pleasure/interests, and yet our tax dollars continue to pay for paramilitary raids against those who choose to engage in it and no one wakes up to smell the insanity.

"Democracy is not a good that people can enjoy without trouble. It is, on the contrary, a treasure that must be daily defended and conquered anew by strenuous effort." - Ludwig von Mises
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill

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Postby hive_king » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:05 pm

First of all, cracking down on poker is just stupid. especially with SWAT teams. This is just as bad as the law banning internet poker.

However, I must disagree with you on one point. You seem to have the idea that there is some concentrated, planned effort to transform America into a police state. There isn't, there is just random, reflexive moves by the government when a new problem arises. There is no master plan to turn us into Cambodia or the Soviet Union. I mean, the government has been doing stupid s*** like this for all of our history (alien and sedition act, anyone?) and we still have more liberties than almost any other country. I'm not saying we sholdn't fight laws like these, we should, but to think there's some shadowy plot is just stupid. Are the illumanati behind it, AB?
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby Seiryu » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:30 pm

Killing a man with a poker is a crime, though.
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Postby AnthonyByakko » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:52 pm

First of all, cracking down on poker is just stupid. especially with SWAT teams. This is just as bad as the law banning internet poker.

However, I must disagree with you on one point. You seem to have the idea that there is some concentrated, planned effort to transform America into a police state. There isn't, there is just random, reflexive moves by the government when a new problem arises. There is no master plan to turn us into Cambodia or the Soviet Union. I mean, the government has been doing stupid s*** like this for all of our history (alien and sedition act, anyone?) and we still have more liberties than almost any other country. I'm not saying we sholdn't fight laws like these, we should, but to think there's some shadowy plot is just stupid. Are the illumanati behind it, AB?
Random, reflexive moves? Are you f****** serious? Nothing done by the small cabal of people that actually wields power in this country is done by random acts of reflexive impulse. You don't think people plan this s*** out? That they just make up crazy laws at "random" to see what happens? There is always a reason for something, even things that seem completely inane and wierd, like banning people from playing internet poker. It stems directly from an inate desire in the political community to curb freedom of action to soften the populace into a more malleable form. Sometimes things seems disconnected or even as if governmental action is contradicting itself - and sometimes it is. There are different people with different ideas about how to achieve their agendas, but one thing is for certain - there is always an agenda. Do you honestly believe people get into politics to serve their country in the same way many soldier's do? I think not. You look at big-money, big-name people like Bush, Hillary, Kennedy, etc, and they have more than enough money and clout to live like kings without any political action whatsoever. Hell, the President's salary is about a million a term - what was Bush making previous to that in his oil ventures? Billions? There's only one reason after money why someone gets into politics - power. Power over people. Regardless of how they want to shape society, as evidenced by the differences in agendas in the Republicans and Democrats, they all want the same thing - more power. Every action taken by the government must be questioned and critically examined. To not do so is self-destructive and unpatriotic, not to mention against one's one best interests. The government only has one power - the use of force against those it rules; luckily our laws make it very difficult for the government to use that force, as they are forbidden from it except in very specific circumstances outlined by our founding documents and time-tested law. But don't think for a minute that they won't do everything they can to increase the range and scope of when and against who they can unleash their force against. It's not conspiracy-theory to declare that government and its operators seek power and the ability to use their force to shape and mold society's to their will. It's historical, cultural, psychological fact. You don't need a shadowy plot to explain the government's penchant for seeking out ways to infringe rights, it's right there in the open. It's just that Republicans have found ways of doing a better job of not only accruing power, but doing it right out in the open and right in our faces. I didn't say there was some secret society at work here, and there doesn't even need to be - it's right in front of your nose, as it's been from the beginning.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

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Postby Eddie Pinz » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:13 am

Come on...poker is a plague on this society...I can't turn on the TV without seeing a poker show...I mean you want them to focus on murder and rape...I mean its not like murder is that big of problem...Its not like the city of brotherly love, my hometown, isn't averaging over a murder per day in the year 2007...oh wait...nevermind...

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Postby hive_king » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:03 pm

By "reflexive", I mean that someone in the government sees what they feel is an ill in society, such as gambling, and they decide to try to use a law to cure the ill. They are, the vast majority of the time, responding to individual problems as they come.

You also seem to have the idea that politicians act as some sort of unified force. First of all, this is dead wrong. Just look at the news, and all you see are many small groups and individual members al trying to make the world a better place as they see it, and/or line their own pockets. People very rarely work together, and very rarely make palns. Besides, what good would it do a politician to conciously restrict freedom when they have to follow the law too, and when they can be one election or one term-limit law away from being just an average citizen? It defies common sense.

Also, if politicians just want more power, then why do they try to stop eachother from things that would increase the absolute power of the government. Many of these, you have large minorities that are fighting to prevent a law that might increase power, such as opposition to Bush's repeal of habeas corpus. This goes to belie your theory. Not to mention you have instances like California passing a medical marijuanna law. It might not be a total repeal of the law, but it is limiting the power of the government and could lead to total repeal of marijuanna laws.

Also, do you have any sort of evidence of a unified agenda to usurp power other than a hunch that the current climate could be so. I mean hard evidence. It would be nice for empirical evidence to back up your claim, but knowing you, that'd be too much to ask for.

One other thing I've been wondering about. We have an administration that is trying to do away with habeas corpus, that has already eviscerated the right for a warrent and for due process, that is trying to destroy the wall between church and state. There are such huge and earth-shaking constitutional infringements that could forever damage our country and rule of law, yet you get most excited about smoking and gambling bans. Why such small fish when we have huge man-eating sharks out there?
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby Sparrowhawk » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:53 pm

By "reflexive", I mean that someone in the government sees what they feel is an ill in society, such as gambling, and they decide to try to use a law to cure the ill. They are, the vast majority of the time, responding to individual problems as they come.
I won't contradict this point, to a point. There are politicians who aren't rich and who aren't part of the cabal-at-large that leads the parties and their agendas. Some genuinely (albiet stupidly) believe that laws can cure social ills. While this only adds to the ability of government to restrict individual action, they aren't consciously trying for that affect - oh wait, they actually are, it's just that their motivations for doing so are "better." I suppose I can applaud them for doing exactly the same thing as assholes like Kennedy, Bush, Hillary, Pelosi, Lott, etc, but doing so with "good" intentions.
You also seem to have the idea that politicians act as some sort of unified force.
They're called political parties.
People very rarely work together, and very rarely make palns.


I don't really know what to say. I mean, as far as the big time decisions go, it's all down to the two political parties, their leadership cabal, and the agenda each of the two is trying to push. So yes, they do make plans, they do it all the time, and they are quite unified.
It defies common sense.
I never said it didn't. I never said the stupidity of government action made any sense at all.
Not to mention you have instances like California passing a medical marijuanna law.


This is actually a good point. I do indeed see where the confusion may stem from; individual states and local governments (even though they have their own set of problems) are not really the primary problem, and perhaps I didn't specify. States are supposed to be "laboratories of democracy", where the people of a state can choose their way of governance, and are free to continue or discontinue it as they see fit. Other states, seeing the results, are free to attempt the same thing or steer clear of it if the results are negative. The federal overbearance we are seeing (and which is that "primary" problem I talked about) prevents this from having the intended benefit. In the instance you provided, even though California may pass medical marijuana bills, it is still illegal federally, and there are numerous examples (some of which I have expounded on in the past) of people who are given permission and legally use, grow or distribute to patients medical marijuana, under the authority of the state of California and the city they live in, yet are still stormed upon by federal stormtroopers and imprisoned for doing what they were under the impression was a legal, state-authorized activity. I know that I get riled up and make generalities about government, but it's really federalism and the rise of federal power (as well as those that wield it - primarily the big-money politicians in the big positions) that's the problem.
Also, do you have any sort of evidence of a unified agenda to usurp power
Political parties. There are only two of them, and they frequently collude to infringe upon the rights of individuals and states.
One other thing I've been wondering about. We have an administration that is trying to do away with habeas corpus, that has already eviscerated the right for a warrent and for due process, that is trying to destroy the wall between church and state. There are such huge and earth-shaking constitutional infringements that could forever damage our country and rule of law, yet you get most excited about smoking and gambling bans. Why such small fish when we have huge man-eating sharks out there?
Every battle to ensure the rights of man is a battle worth fighting.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill

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Postby anonshadow » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:20 am

Nick, I think the real problem here is that you never watched the X-Files. If you had, you would have become well-schooled in the art of identifying government conspiracies.



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Postby Sparrowhawk » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:29 am

I was always too busy watching TNG to watch X-Files.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill


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