Girly Stuff

[Syphon the Sun]

If that's not what you're saying, then I'm at a loss but will chalk it up to you being a goofball and/or me liking to over-complicate things.

I was mostly just pointing out that we all follow hundreds, thousands of social norms all the time and very, very few are the kind you're all talking about. And I think that's important to remember. How you stand in an elevator, what you say when someone sneezes ("you are so good-looking"), saying please and thank you, greeting people, all that jazz: social norms. And there's nothing inherently "wrong" or "evil" about them. Whether you think a particular social norm is right or wrong, should be changed or left alone, is a wholly different beast from whether social norms as a construct have value. So, yeah. Just wanted to point out that not all social norms are serious business. Most are meaningless and if you break them, you might make people somewhat uncomfortable, but it's not like you're treated as a leper.

Plus, I really like to stand in elevators facing everyone.

[Gravity Defier]

So, yeah. Just wanted to point out that not all social norms are serious business. Most are meaningless and if you break them, you might make people somewhat uncomfortable, but it's not like you're treated as a leper.

Touche, Bologna, touche. :)

[CezeN]

I never claimed that social norms were right, please point out the specific part of my post that gave you that idea.

Feminine things being socially incorrect behavior for a man is no different than any of the other social norms we all follow.

So...social norms aren't right but it's incorrect for a man to participate/enjoy feminine things because it goes against social norms? Which is it, Cezen? Do you or do you not think that social norms being what they are are right or wrong? If they're not right, then to hell with what the "masses" think, it's not selfish to be true to who you are. It's also never just one person bucking against the masses, trying to challenge social norms.

It's a matter of things being the status quo for so long that generations of people have a hard time understanding how things outside that are not inherently wrong or evil. Like, black people being humans, women being equal to men, gay people not being evil people who corrupt the institution of marriage and the mental health of children, men who like to dress as women because they feel they were born more aligned with what is considered traditionally feminine are not the devil, women who like to play sports are not butch lesbians, boys who like to play with dolls are not sissies, etc.

None of those things would be okay now -hell, some still aren't because some people are close minded and others yet don't want to rock the socially norm but bull s*** boat- if it weren't for people challenging the norm.

No, social norms aren't right but it's socially disapproved of for men to participate in feminine things depending on how feminine people in general think it is. That's why I said "socially incorrect", meaning something you wouldn't want to do socially in front of everyone. Whatever you do in the privacy of your own home, where your opinions or your family opinions make life go round, is up to you.

Right and "socially expected" aren't synonymous here. Like I said earlier, social norms are neither right or wrong.

I said it was selfish to try to change a norm to fit your standards if it's neither right or wrong. However, it's egotistical to think that societies opinions doesn't matter when you function in a society where people's opinions on you affect your everyday life. Like, you'd have to have a pretty inflated opinion on the importance of your own opinions.

You're mentioning all these serious things, which are more than social norms. More like social injustices. The fact is that the great portion of social norms that you follow with out even realizing aren't negative in any way. A person being kind enough to hold the door open for someone behind them is not negative. A man holding a chair out for a women is not negative, but chivalrous. I could go on to counteract all the serious issues that are more than social norms with tenfold more that are less than harmless. You can cherrypick the social norms that are great issues in society and then try to argue with those outliers "f*** social norms, they're evil or wrong", but the vast majority you don't have a problem with.

Great, but what greatly positive affect would come from challenging the norm that Zumba is feminine? Zumba is an exercise. There's a variety of exercises any one person can do, whether men do Zumba or not matter's insignificantly in the grand scheme of anything. Same with whether men wear pink or dresses. Do you think there's really something going to come of challenging the status quo that booty shaking is feminine? No.

[Eaquae Legit]

Great, but what greatly positive affect would come from challenging the norm that Zumba is feminine? Zumba is an exercise. There's a variety of exercises any one person can do, whether men do Zumba or not matter's insignificantly in the grand scheme of anything. Same with whether men wear pink or dresses. Do you think there's really something going to come of challenging the status quo that booty shaking is feminine? No.

Yes, because as Rei said, right now for men to do feminine things is not simply unusual or odd, it is somehow shameful, as if feminine things were lesser. Changing THAT perception would do the world a lot of good, IMO.

[Gravity Defier]

Great, but what greatly positive affect would come from challenging the norm that Zumba is feminine? Zumba is an exercise. There's a variety of exercises any one person can do, whether men do Zumba or not matter's insignificantly in the grand scheme of anything. Same with whether men wear pink or dresses. Do you think there's really something going to come of challenging the status quo that booty shaking is feminine? No.

Yes, because as Rei said, right now for men to do feminine things is not simply unusual or odd, it is somehow shameful, as if feminine things were lesser. Changing THAT perception would do the world a lot of good, IMO.

Amen and preach it.

Cezen, you're not proving to me that Rei and Jan were wrong. I'm glad you can parrot what Syphon said, less effectively I might add, even though it doesn't disprove that those so-called social injustices I mentioned exist(ed) because they're the status quo or were at one time. It wasn't my point to say all things the masses follow are bad or even that serious. It was my point to say there are serious and less serious but still non-trivial things that are wrong that are followed for longer than they need to be because "that's just the way they are; society would never approve of anything else." And that's stupid, shortsighted, and as you suggested, unjust.

[CezeN]

I would argue what I have heard (possibly here, possibly elsewhere, I have forgotten): Until it is acceptable for men to participate in things that are feminine, we will not have gender equality. As things currently stand, as good as it has been that women are able to participate in masculine things, to a large degree people have been unknowingly or knowingly accepting women becoming more like men instead of women being equal to men. The strongest evidence of this is the disdain that is still so socially acceptable to feel towards men who participate in feminine things, things that make them girls, their status reduced.

Eh, I think it depends on what degree the activity is considered feminine or masculine. And, it depends on the type of activity.
Whether it's a role, behavior, ect.

Because I can understand why one might consider that people thinking "being a stay-at-home dad is wrong" might be negative for society. Since that has more to do with traditional gender roles in terms of working. However, on the other hand, I don't think people thinking that Zumba is feminine is negative. Zumba has more to do with movements - booty shaking - that specifically fits the curves of the female body. Considering Zumba feminine is not much different from considering walking from the hips feminine, and walking with more emphasis on moving the shoulders masculine.

While I agree that there needs to be gender equality in certain areas, when it comes to body movements, the male and female bodies aren't equal. They are different. Bootyshaking does not need to be amended to an accepted masculine form of excercise, as bootyshaking specifically fits the contours of the female body.

However, now I understand your first post and your side of the issue.

[CezeN]

Great, but what greatly positive affect would come from challenging the norm that Zumba is feminine? Zumba is an exercise. There's a variety of exercises any one person can do, whether men do Zumba or not matter's insignificantly in the grand scheme of anything. Same with whether men wear pink or dresses. Do you think there's really something going to come of challenging the status quo that booty shaking is feminine? No.

Yes, because as Rei said, right now for men to do feminine things is not simply unusual or odd, it is somehow shameful, as if feminine things were lesser. Changing THAT perception would do the world a lot of good, IMO.

Amen and preach it.

Cezen, you're not proving to me that Rei and Jan were wrong. I'm glad you can parrot what Syphon said, less effectively I might add, even though it doesn't disprove that those so-called social injustices I mentioned exist(ed) because they're the status quo or were at one time. It wasn't my point to say all things the masses follow are bad or even that serious. It was my point to say there are serious and less serious but still non-trivial things that are wrong that are followed for longer than they need to be because "that's just the way they are; society would never approve of anything else." And that's stupid, shortsighted, and as you suggested, unjust.

Well, it's glad to see that I'm missing your point as much as you've been missing mine this entire thread.

And I didn't read Syphon's post before formulating my reply, we probably said the same thing because the point that you were missing was obvious.
I'm glad you can piggyback on another person's post, by the way.

Last, I'm pretty sure I said that societal norms change, not that "they would never approve of anything else". While you guys have been focusing on "serious issues", I've been focusing on the trivial ones that had to do with my original post. Zumba specifically.
Rei and Jan were wrong in that they were hearing me saying something I wasn't saying, telling me to "rebel against the idea that feminine is bad" when I never claimed feminine was bad. And of course, they didn't specifically respond to what I asked. (Not their fault, no one did...)

[Rei]

Actually that WAS my response to your question. I was following in the long tradition of the Socratic method.

[Jayelle]

Actually that WAS my response to your question. I was following in the long tradition of the Socratic method.

It was my answer as well and it was off the cuff, not "serious issues " . I think you should do Zumba because it's not manly. In exactly the same way I should play video games and read comics.


As for the other whole debate, meet me at camera 3 (aka the race relations thread).

[Luet]

I think you should do Zumba because it's not manly. In exactly the same way I should play video games and read comics.

I assume you mean that you enjoy those things first and it's an added benefit that they go against the stereotype of your gender role, correct? You wouldn't choose a hobby you don't enjoy just to prove a point, right? Just curious. I personally don't like video games or comics but my niece adores video games and I encourage her to do so.

[Jayelle]

I think you should do Zumba because it's not manly. In exactly the same way I should play video games and read comics.

I assume you mean that you enjoy those things first and it's an added benefit that they go against the stereotype of your gender role, correct? You wouldn't choose a hobby you don't enjoy just to prove a point, right? Just curious. I personally don't like video games or comics but my niece adores video games and I encourage her to do so.

Yes. That's what I meant. I was more thinking that I do those things and people say "Hey that's awesome that a chick likes comics!" and people *should* say "Hey, that's awesome that a guy does Zumba!".

[CezeN]

I can't describe the stares I got doing Zumba, mostly because I purposely didn't try to meet people's eyes out of shame. So, I can't really tell if the girls approved, or thought it was funny, or what. However, one of my female friends said me doing it was cute....

Bullshit at its finest.

If anyone ever comes up to me and says "hey, you're that guy who did Zumba..." I would probably slit my own throat on the spot.

/Zumba

[megxers]

In shallower girly news, my mother just cut 4-5 inches off my hair with scissors and electric clipper-thing. I think we are in disagreement with how big in inch is.

[starlooker]

So, my ob/gyn is totally on board with the IUD plan. The plan right now is for me to deliver the placenta and her to pretty much immediately put in Mirena. Turns out there aren't too many reasons to worry about it causing breastfeeding problems -- it can, but it's rare. I'm pretty happy about it. They normally wait 6 weeks, but there's been more of a push to put it in within 48 hours of delivery -- within 10 minutes of delivering the placenta is apparently ideal.

So, woohoo! One baby is DEFINITELY enough, for now.

[LilBee91]

Yay!

Also, can someone explain to me why no one ever tells you about delivering the placenta? You hear about the birds and the bees, watch videos of childbirth, and hear all of the woes of pregnancy and childbirth from 10-years-old on. But I'm pretty sure I didn't hear about the placental delivery stuff until college. I think some graphic discussions of that, or perhaps seeing an actual placenta, would greatly lower incidences of teen pregnancy. Not that it's even close to a big deal once you're having your baby, but for us folk who aren't making babies (or maybe just me), it's kind of icky.

[Luet]

I really can't remember when I learned about the placenta but I think I was pretty young. I was 7 when my little brother was born and we were in the room for that, so I imagine I knew by then. Also, my mom was very open about teaching me about girl stuff. Not to mention, she's kind of weird...as in, she has a piece of each of our umbilical cords taped onto a page of our baby books.

[neo-dragon]

Not to mention, she's kind of weird...as in, she has a piece of each of our umbilical cords taped onto a page of our baby books.

You never know when you'll need some stem cells.

[thoughtreader]

So I had my follow up with the Dr today, My uterus has been much less pissed off the past few days. Not crazy painful but I can tell its there as compared to the usual I know its there but can't tell because it doesn't feel any different. So I'm feeling petty good about it.
She said everything on the ultrasound was normal and the IUD was still in a good place. it may have just shifted slightly and given me pains similar to insertion pains because of the slight shift. So thats good. She gave me the option to remove it or leave it in and see if it continues to keep feeling better. I opted to keep it in because I don't have to figure out other options and cost of birth control. She also drew blood to run test to try and figure out why I wasn't having a period. She said it could be all kinds of things and the test should shed some light on it.
But there is some good news the Dr said that because I have had periods in the past when on birth control I respond to hormones so even if I'm having ovulation issues it should be easy to treat someday when I want to have babies.

[starlooker]

Seriously happy to hear that last piece of news, Teresa!

Well, apparently either the hospital or my insurance vetoed the "insert Mirena right after the birth" plan. So, I get to have it put in at my post-partum visit and just hope nothing goes wrong, I guess. Sigh.

Anyhow, the good news is that lessens the already very remote chance that it would interfere with breastfeeding.

[thoughtreader]

So I got my blood test back, and everything is normal. Which is good. The Dr was mainly testing for PCOS and I don't have it. She also tested kidney, thyroid, liver and other things and they were all normal.
BUT...
I might have a genetic disorder.
When my test came back negative my Dr looked back over my history and connected some things I would never have thought to connect; my height (or lack there of), my congenital cataracts, broad chest, frequent childhood ear infections, and lack of period. Put them all together and I might have Turner's syndrome. So I'm being referred to a geneticist to get tested and see if I have it or not (NO idea how we are going to pay for the testing but I guess thats a bridge we will cross soon). I'm hoping for a no but the more I read about it the more likely it seems. Not the a positive diagnosis will change anything much I'll still be me, just extra monitoring to make sure other things I could have problems with don't happen or are caught early. If I do have it I most likely have a more mild case.
I'm just trying to stay positive and keep myself in a good place while I continue to play the waiting game.

*sigh* its just one more thing added to the pile of crap....

[LilBee91]

*hugs*

I hope it all turns out okay.

[Gravity Defier]

*hugs* I'm sorry, Teresa. I understand it might be manageable but you keep getting s*** flung at you, don't you?

[Luet]

I just got my hair cut by a newish friend/acquaintance. I found out while it was getting cut that she had her license less than a year. I was unhappy afterwards, so I went back to have her fix it. I am still unhappy but what are you going to do? It's now too short to really fix. I guess I will just live and learn and never go back to her again. I came home and cut it some more myself to try to fix the overall shape. But, grrr!

[Eaquae Legit]

I had gel nails done a few weeks ago, and it was super fun! I missed the whole masage and such, but it doesn't work with the gel to soak the hands. I was impressed with how sturdy they were! My nails never stay so nice that long! They lasted close to three weeks, by which time they were growing out anyway. The only downside was how hard it was on my nails to get it off. I'll probably do the gel nails again someday, but not till I can afford to get them removed professionally too.

[Gravity Defier]

I'm not quite sure how to start this post, or even what I hope to get out of posting it, other than a sense of relief, maybe.

I like my boy. Quite a bit. A whole heaping bunch. A hell of a lot. I'm also probably the most emotionally stunted adult female I know because "like" is not really the brunt of it and I'm too much of a chickenshit to say what I actually mean. He knows this, I've kind of danced around the point, so it won't be a surprise if I hint at it here, too. Part of me not wanting to say it now is because I'd rather do it in person. I really wish Janelle was here right now because we had a silly inside joke when more or less this same thing happened to a Pwebber about, oh, 8 years ago. She could laugh with (and at) me and I could tell her it's only stupid when it's not you.

Part of it is just plain old fear at being the first one to say it (though I don't want to not be the first one to say it); I've never been in that position before and I kind of want to be. I don't think I'd care if I was the only one to say it, at least not for a while, though after a point, if it wasn't returned, that would suck. Part of it is stupid...stupidity. "If I say it once, I have to keep saying it. All the time. Then I'll be drawing attention to the fact that I like him a lot over and over again. That's embarrassing." Yeah, that makes no sense to me, either. It's this weird, "Now that I have you, I'm going to act like I'm above being all mushy." I'm not, though. I'm mushy! I think sugary, sappy, gag-me that's corny stuff all the damn time. It's just kind of unnatural feeling.

Being treated nicely by a boy is so utterly bizarre.

I was supposed to see him this upcoming weekend but I ruined that. He mentioned friends of his being in town (not that I'd have to hang out with them the whole time or even most of it, not that he didn't want me to come because of that, just that friends were going to be around) and I panicked. My last experience with this involved waking up to a note that stated, more or less, that "My friends asked me to leave you behind; they don't want to hang out with you and I want to hang out with them. Food in the fridge if you're hungry." They hated me. I was/am scared zero's friends will be the same, if/when I ever meet them. So I canceled my trip up there and rescheduled for later. I then spent the next day in a funk, wondering what was wrong with me and why couldn't I be a different/better person. I wondered what I'd do if it turns out his friends do hate me. And most of all, now I'm a little sad I have to go even longer before seeing him again.

I'm not good at this relationship stuff. I had the foresight to talk to zero about all this before I posted it but beyond that, I don't really know what I'm doing.

[Petra456]

I was supposed to see him this upcoming weekend but I ruined that. He mentioned friends of his being in town (not that I'd have to hang out with them the whole time or even most of it, not that he didn't want me to come because of that, just that friends were going to be around) and I panicked. My last experience with this involved waking up to a note that stated, more or less, that "My friends asked me to leave you behind; they don't want to hang out with you and I want to hang out with them. Food in the fridge if you're hungry." They hated me. I was/am scared zero's friends will be the same, if/when I ever meet them. So I canceled my trip up there and rescheduled for later. I then spent the next day in a funk, wondering what was wrong with me and why couldn't I be a different/better person. I wondered what I'd do if it turns out his friends do hate me. And most of all, now I'm a little sad I have to go even longer before seeing him again.

I'm always afraid of this with Will's family. He never had any really close friends back home, so I kinda got it easy on the front. When I first meet people I am so shy it's awkward, and it takes me FOREVER to warm up to people. I've met his family a couple of times, and I talk to his Mom pretty frequently on Facebook, but I still have this overwhelming feeling that they just don't like me.

On a completely different subject, Will has a job interview tomorrow and this got me thinking about possible future alone time, or even just girl time with my best friend. He's always telling me I should go out and have girl time, or just have some time with Buddy but I feel so awkward leaving him at home. If he gets this job we will almost have conflicting schedules where i'll have a good 5 hour or so chunk of time by myself most of the week. If he's at work, I wouldn't feel so bad going over to Buddy's more often. I want to say i'm excited for girl time, but it's not even anything particularly girly. So i'm just excited for some alone time? On the other hand, it makes me sad he won't be here most of the time when I get home.

For some reason I thought this belonged in the girly thread.

[Gravity Defier]

Even though he doesn't want to hear it from me, please tell him I said good luck.


As for ever meeting family...ha. Yeah. I'm starting to wonder if I'm cut out for relationships. Maybe the reason I'd been alone for so much of most people's typical dating years is because it's not meant for me for the long haul. Says the cynic and scared girl. :)

[Gravity Defier]

My present to myself for surviving the first month here:

[Young Val]

IT'S SO PRETTY.

I love full skirts with that stripe pattern! It's my new favorite thing!

You look lovely.

[Petra456]

Absolutely gorgeous! I love the neckline, and the stripes, and the cut of the skirt, and how gorgeous you are!

[LilBee91]

Beautiful!

I love the dress. And you.

[Luet]

So, so pretty!

[Eaquae Legit]

Love it, especially the rose details! Congrats on a whole month!

[Gravity Defier]

Thanks :)

I felt stupid because I was trying it on when my bulletin board got delivered (at like, 9:30 in the morning); I was a bit overdressed for the UPS guy.

[Luet]

I need some sports bra advice. I just started exercising with short spans of jogging. Well, during the premenstrual week, my chest gets really sore. I have always worn cheap hanes sports bras around the house but they definitely do NOT cut it when it comes to jogging. Today I had to hold onto my chest with one arm which is not very feasible. So, any sports bra recommendations? Preferably under $20 and available at Target or the like but if have to go to a real department store, I will.