Uranium

[hive_king]

Why would God create Uranium? God is attributed with omnibenevolence, yet he makes a mineral who's main use is to cause huge explosions that destroy entire cities and kill people by the hundreds of thousands. If God hadn't given uranium the properties it has, we wouldn't have nuclear weapons. That doesn't seem "all loving" to me.

[Vasslia Cora]

Uranium also allows us to generate huge amounts of power.

[Hegemon]

Actually, I think that uranium's main use so far has been to power cities.

It's not typically used to nuke places.

Plus.... It reminds me of a story I heard... It was maybe part of a movie or a tv show? I really cannot recall... Anyways, the question was why would God allow things like pain and war and stuff.

The person being asked the question asked the first guy if he would let his son ride a skateboard. Naturally, he answered yes.

So the guy asked him why he would. There is the possibility to hurt himself, but at the same time there is also the possibility to have a lot of fun. So basically, because he loves his son, he allows his son the chance to learn. And God then does the same for us.

[anonshadow]

Why did God create the sun? When it goes supernova, it will wipe us out.

Uranium has the power to blow things up. So do a lot of things. Knives have the power to hurt things. Guns have the power to shoot things. People choose to use them to that effect.

It's not all that impressive when people don't kill each other because there are safety locks on all the doors. At some point, you need to give the adult a knife and cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Uranium can power cities as well as destroy them.

[hive_king]

Ah, but God could have designed Uranium so that it could power cities but not make nuclear bombs. It wouldn't be too hard, and this is God we're talking about, his powers are infinate. And nuclear power produces an amazing amount of waste that is harmful to people.

It just seems like throwing a gun into a playpen and seeing what happens. The bible does think of us as children, saying "we have not the wisdon to guide our own step." Sure, we could kill eachother without Uranium, but it just makes it that much easier.

[DEK]

Maybe he's proving the point that we can't guide our own steps. Otherwise some people would think that we didn't need God in our lives.

[lyons24000]

Best reply ever, DEK.

[mr_thebrain]

kind of drastic and ineffectual way to prove a point though, isn't it?

[lyons24000]

H_K's problem is he just wants to get the Religion forum going. He doesn't really care what we talk about he just wants to start controversy.

[mr_thebrain]

then i stand by my previous statement.

[lyons24000]

Satan the Devil contradicted God, therefore questioning His right to rule. So God is allowing time for man to rule himself so it can be proven that we need Him.

[Jayelle]

Where'd you get that from? Milton?

[DEK]

More like, the Bible. Satan directly contradicted something God said, thereby saying either that God was mistaken, or that He deliberately lied about something and didn't act in Adam and Eve's best interest. Either one of those is a sure-fire way to challenge authority. In the interest of Justice, God has allowed a test, to see who the best ruler is.

[lyons24000]

Yes, man or God? Since the Bible says man cannot direct his steps then I vote for God.

[DEK]

I agree.
Shall we start a poll?

[Jayelle]

More like, the Bible. Satan directly contradicted something God said, thereby saying either that God was mistaken, or that He deliberately lied about something and didn't act in Adam and Eve's best interest. Either one of those is a sure-fire way to challenge authority. In the interest of Justice, God has allowed a test, to see who the best ruler is.

Care to tell me where you find that in the bible?

[lyons24000]

Genesis 3-Satan challenges Jehovah.

[DEK]

Particularly verses 3 and 4, where Satan calls Jehovah a liar (or an idiot).

[Jayelle]

In Genesis 3, a serpent tells Eve to eat the fruit because it will cause her know have the knowledge of good and evil. It does. They are banished from the garden. In no place is there a challange of Satan (who isn't even around- it's a serpent).
Verses 2-5 read as follows:

----------------------------
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

------------------------------

and btw, I also can't find "we have not the wisdom to guide our own step." in my bible.

[lyons24000]

The Serpent is Satan the Devil. Revelation 12:9 calls him "The Original Serpent".

Jeremiah 10:23-Man cannot direct his steps

[DEK]

Revelation 12:9
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
It doesn't get more original than Genesis. And the part where Eve says that God said "you will die", and the serpent responds "You will surely not die" is the challenge.

[Jayelle]

That's taking some pretty huge liberties with the text to say that this is a "challange" to God and that "In the interest of Justice, God has allowed a test, to see who the best ruler is."

[DEK]

Contradicting God is a challenge in my book, and tempting the first human couple into disobedience is mutiny. Satan (the Serpent) knew that God was telling the truth, because He doesn't lie. Therefore Satan was intentionally lying to and deceiving Eve. This is just like political mud-slinging nowadays. You say something bad about the other guy so that people will listen to you.

[Jayelle]

So? The whole deal with God is that he's the most powerful. Satan has nowhere near the power that God does.

[DEK]

Yes, but God does not use power to force his authority(2 Corinthians 9:7). His sovereignty is based on the fact that, as Creator of the universe, he knows what is best for everyone. Satan was challenging that by essentially claiming that God was withholding something good (i.e. the forbidden fruit) from his loyal subjects. God could have destroyed him in an instant for the challenge, but that would have left it unanswered. So to prove His sovereignty, God allowed has humans to rule themselves for a time. Then, once it has been determined that he is the best choice for ruler, people will willingly serve Him.

[Jayelle]

uh-huh. That's your interpretation. That's not exactly what the text says.

[DEK]

How would you interpret it?

[Jayelle]

Well... with Biblical interpretation you have a few options. You can intepret the Bible literally, figuratively, or a mix of the two.

According to a literal interpretation, the serpent in Genesis is a serpent. Clearly you aren't using an exclusively literal interpretation, and that's fine I don't usually either.

With any figurative interpretation you need to decide if you are going to interpret the Bible image by image—verse by verse, or if you are going to intepret it in the context of the text as a whole. In the first case, it doesn't make sense to identify the serpent in Revelation with the serpent in Genesis, since if each verse stands alone then they aren't cross-textual.

In the second case (which I prefer) you don't get to quote passages all by themselves, and it doesn't make sense to connect verses without understanding the text as a whole. This means that you need to read the whole Bible, and even better—study Jewish, Palestinian, Christian imagery and traditional interpretations—and decide based on that what you think the text says.

As far as Satan goes, it is Hebrew for "accuser", and the first use of the word in the Bible is in the book of Job, where Satan seems to be one of God's angel's whose job is to play what we now call (fittingly) a devil's advocate. The idea of Satan rebelling against God is based partly on Rev. 12 and partly on Isaiah 14, but mostly on John Milton's Paradise Lost.
Isaiah 14:12-13 reads "How you are fallen from heaven o Lucifer! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, 'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars...". Taken out of context this seems like a pretty good description of what you're talking about. But IN context, check out how this speech starts, back in verse 4: "You will taunt the king of Babylon. You will say, ..." This is a passage about Nebucchadnezzar of Babylon. And the Bible never even uses the term "Lucifer". It's a Latin name, first used in a Christian context by Jerome in his Vulgate. The Bible never says that Lucifer is satan.

Revelation 12 has war between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels. But in the context there's nothing to suggest that this happens before creation, or that Satan wanted to take over for God (in fact, Satan is never put on a plane with God, but only with Michael), or that there was any debate about how to relate to humanity.

[Jayelle]

And in regards to the other verse you quoted at me:
2 Corinthians 9:7 is a passage refering to the responsibilities of church members to support the church financially. In the greater context of the chapter and book, the passage says that the point of giving to God is that it is good for the giver—that legalistic rules about how much you need to give are not helpful if you aren't giving helpfully. It doesn't really say much about whether God uses power to force his authority in general. A traditional orthodox intepretation of God's relationship to creation is that God orders all of creation with his power but that God's relationship to humans is one of love based on free will. It's not that God doesn't use power to force his authority (Gen 3:9-24,4:12, 19:1-29, Job 38,39, Psalm 2, etc) it's more that God chooses to relate to human beings in terms of Love rather than power.

[Taalcon]

As far as Satan goes, it is Hebrew for "accuser", and the first use of the word in the Bible is in the book of Job, where Satan seems to be one of God's angel's whose job is to play what we now call (fittingly) a devil's advocate.

I don't think it's inferred that he was doing a 'job' or 'duty' in bringing accusations against God and humanity. It presents that the sons of God came before God, and that Satan also came among them. It's not established whether or not he was summoned to give a report, or whether he came of his own volition.

The idea of Satan rebelling against God is based partly on Rev. 12 and partly on Isaiah 14, but mostly on John Milton's Paradise Lost.

The interpretation and understanding of a Rebellion is attested to in theological writings far before Milton. Milton took the concept and added additional drama to it.

Isaiah 14:12-13 reads "How you are fallen from heaven o Lucifer! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, 'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars...". Taken out of context this seems like a pretty good description of what you're talking about. But IN context, check out how this speech starts, back in verse 4: "You will taunt the king of Babylon. You will say, ..." This is a passage about Nebucchadnezzar of Babylon.

Many (myself included) view most of the prophecies and writings of Isaiah to be extremely layered in meaning, often having several 'true' meanings.

And the Bible never even uses the term "Lucifer". It's a Latin name, first used in a Christian context by Jerome in his Vulgate. The Bible never says that Lucifer is satan.

It's true - the term used literally means, "Day Star", and even in the surface reference to the king of Babylon, it is symbolic in use. The term is also understood to work in context with the allegory of the fall of an angelic personage.

For the record, I'm not arguing for DEK and lyons' POV (those are interpretations held by Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower, which I don't agree with).

[anonshadow]

Ah, but God could have designed Uranium so that it could power cities but not make nuclear bombs. It wouldn't be too hard, and this is God we're talking about, his powers are infinate. And nuclear power produces an amazing amount of waste that is harmful to people.

All powerful things have the ability to greatly affect people's lives. That's what makes them powerful. Powerful doesn't necessarily mean good. When you are powerful, or are in the possession of powerful things, you have a choice. You can choose to try to positively influence people's lives, you can choose to try to negatively influence people's lives, or you can choose to just sit there and do nothing because something bad could happen.

Power doesn't mean anything if all you can do with it is good, and even then, it could cause wars to obtain the power. It could cause violence in and of itself.

And God has granted us free will.

It just seems like throwing a gun into a playpen and seeing what happens. The bible does think of us as children, saying "we have not the wisdon to guide our own step." Sure, we could kill eachother without Uranium, but it just makes it that much easier.

The Bible portrays us as being children. It may offer evidence that, when it was written, God thinks of us as children. But the Bible itself is not capable of conscious thought and therefore cannot think of us as children. /nitpicking

With great power comes great responsibility. The more powerful we get and the more our numbers swell, the more we need--and the more we have the responsibility to handle it responsibly.

[Dr. Mobius]

Why would God create Uranium? God is attributed with omnibenevolence, yet he makes a mineral who's main use is to cause huge explosions that destroy entire cities and kill people by the hundreds of thousands. If God hadn't given uranium the properties it has, we wouldn't have nuclear weapons. That doesn't seem "all loving" to me.

He's also attributed with omniscience. Besides making Hawking look like a retard by comparison, I assume that would allow him know that, sometime in the future, mankind is better because of uranium.

[suminonA]

Why did God create the sun? When it goes supernova, it will wipe us out.

I suppose you say "us" as in "Humans", because none of the present living individuals would actually be a witness to the Sun going supernova.

So, how do you know that Humans won't colonise other planets before that happens?

Ah, but God could have designed Uranium so that it could power cities but not make nuclear bombs. It wouldn't be too hard, and this is God we're talking about, his powers are infinate. And nuclear power produces an amazing amount of waste that is harmful to people.

Well, you can’t have one without the other. The fission of each uranium atom releases energy. Controlling the fission rate, and thus the energy release, makes “power for our cities”. Lumping together more than the critical mass of uranium produces a chain reaction that cannot be controlled, because of the huge power (energy by unit of time) released in that process. This manifests itself as an explosion. This is the atomic bomb.

There are things that, given the present physical laws of the Universe, are impossible, even for the most “potent” engineer that you can think of.

A.

[DEK]

I think what Hive_King meant is that God, being God, could have designed the physical laws of the universe in such a way that uranium could generate power without being destructive. In my opinion, that is something like never letting your son or daughter do anything dangerous, no matter what their age. Sure, they don't get hurt, but they never learn all the lessons that go along with being hurt. Part of the joy of raising a child (or so I'm told) is watching them become, at least to some degree, independant. If God sees us as children, then he'll want us to grow and learn, even while he cares for us. It also bears mentioning that, by itself, uranium is neither good nor bad. It is the people who use it who decide whether it will be used to power cities or destroy them. I'm also fairly certain (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) that uranium, in its natural form, is too diluted to be of any use for good or evil. It takes a long process to refine it, and it is during that process that human influence takes effect, deciding what it will be used for.

[Taalcon]

I think what Hive_King meant is that God, being God, could have designed the physical laws of the universe in such a way that uranium could generate power without being destructive. In my opinion, that is something like never letting your son or daughter do anything dangerous, no matter what their age. Sure, they don't get hurt, but they never learn all the lessons that go along with being hurt. Part of the joy of raising a child (or so I'm told) is watching them become, at least to some degree, independant. If God sees us as children, then he'll want us to grow and learn, even while he cares for us.

This is something I agree with fullheartedly. I believe a chief purpose of our life here on earth is to grow and to progress - that is why we have the gift of Agency.