The Obligatory Buffy thread

[starlooker]

Kelly, I believe we have discovered a pattern.

According to both of us, Angel goes into decline after Season 3. Although, I preferred what I saw of Season 5 to what I've seen of Season 4, neither were as strong as 1-3.

According to you, Buffy declines after Season 3.

According to me, Bones declines after Season 3.

Does this apply to other shows? Is that, perhaps, the median time at which a show starts declining?

The glaring exception I can think of to this pattern is NCIS which is still going strong after 7 seasons, as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, the plots of the actual episodes (not the long, drawn-out back story plots, but just the crime-of-the-week stuff) are completely and totally formulaic. (However, that doesn't stop me from loving it since I'm one of the few people in the world who doesn't really care if I know the ending to a story or not -- in a lot of cases, I prefer knowing ahead of time. I'm much more character-driven than plot-driven.)

Anyhow, I don't watch enough television in general to know if this is an actual pattern or if it's just a coincidence, but I'm suspicious.

[Graff^]

This somewhat of a pattern. Most writers use their better ideas first. By three years + they start grasping at straws. some people hire new writers after 4 years some don't.

[Young Val]

I'd argue the 3 season curse applies to LOST as well.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

Stargate SG-1 really only got going after it's 3rd season. That's a bit of a special case, though since it was only then that the show had gained enough traction that they could branch out from the central plot of the movie from which the series began.

[neo-dragon]

SG-1 is overrated. Not bad, but highly overrated.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

Eh. It has a few absolutely stellar plotlines and episodes that everyone remembers with a LOT of mediocre stuff inbetween. It's practically anime-esque filler half the time. And it was only in the later seasons when the show really stopped taking itself seriously and threw in tons of self-referential humor that it really came into its own.

[ValentineNicole]

Angel season 5 spoiler...
Oh my God, Cordi!! *tear*

And, for the record, Angel season 5 is WAY better than season 4.

And the Buffy/Spike plot (and the musical) make the later seasons of Buffy way more enjoyable, despite the angst-y back from the dead stuff.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

Eh. The whole Cordelia/Jasmine/Connor thing was so squicky it kinda ruined her character for me completely. The episode in S5 was a good send-off, but still, when I think of Cordelia ... yeah...

But, yeah, Season 5 is one of the best stretches in the Buffyverse, and the puppet episode was amazing.

[zeroguy]

Does this apply to other shows?

The only shows (that I liked) that I can think of off the top of my head that I've watched for more than three seasons are The Simpsons and Peep Show, and this "3 seasons" thing applies to neither (in my opinion). Not exactly similar genres, though....

[Edit: Okay, Daria too. I don't remember season boundaries for it, but I think I remember liking all of it so whatever. Also some anime, but that's completely different at the very least for manga adaptations...]

Edit again (I don't feel like bumping the thread for this): Okay, Home Movies, too. I think it fits the "lessens after season 3" rule, assuming I'm counting my seasons right.

[Young Val]

Season 5 of Angel didn't really do it for me. (Some spoilers to follow)

Setting aside the Connor/Cordelia/Jasmine debacle, I actually liked the over-arching plot of the 4th season. I liked the conflict between Connor and Angel, I liked Angel having to deal with Cordelia's loss and then her sudden return and memory loss. I liked the return of Faith, and Wesley's return to the group (sort of). I liked Lilah, and the dynamic between Gun and Fred (although I STILL think Fred and Gun are a far better couple than Fred and Wesley).

I really, really hated Cordelia and Connor sleeping together. It was just gross. In every way. And yes, I too get that it was motivated largely by Charisma's pregnancy or whatever, but ew. No.

Still, there was a lot I liked about the 4th season.

The 5th season had no real over-arching plot to speak of. I dislike Fred/Wesley as a couple, although it was nice to see him happy for a little bit. It was nice to see Spike again, but he can't fill the void left by Cordy. The whole season felt very choppy and light to me, and I know that's because the WB got such awful feedback from fans about the 4th season, but... I don't know. It didn't do it for me. I felt like it was a smart show that got dumbed down.

Yeah, the puppet episode was cute, but meh.

And the cliffhanger finale just pissed me off.

[starlooker]

True. There are things I am liking about Season 4. And I can't really compare season 5 to it firmly yet, since I saw parts of it first and didn't really have any context for it.

Spoilers for both Seasons 4 and 5:

I am looking forward to Fred/Wesley somewhat. Although, more than that, I'm rather looking forward to Illyria. Frankly, I am just not that crazy about Fred. Having her want revenge/murder on the professor was a good twist, though, and I do like the way it's affecting the Fred/Gunn dynamic. But I can't wait until she turns blue and can hear the plants talking back and kicks Spike's ass. Despite the fact that it leaves no strong female human good guys on Team Angel.

Two more episodes into Season 4, and I am still missing normal Cordy. Even if I didn't know the spoilers, I don't think I would like her much at this point.

I really, really, really am in love with the whole Wesley/Lilah dynamic. I mean, don't get me wrong, broody Wesley bothers me but that's more because I like Wesley and would kind of like to see him happy more than being annoyed by him.

The thing of it is, Season 5 has to be choppy in a weird sort of way, because there are so many majorly important characters who are dead (or incapacitated) and having memories erased does away with so many plotlines. It's like going back to Season 1 or starting Season 1 of a brand new show. Like the first few episodes of Angel were mainly disconnected stories about killing bad-guys-of-the-week that eventually began to weave themes together. A Season 6 might've gotten it back on track.

Also, the cliffhanger ending pisses me off as well. I get what Whedon was trying to do conceptually. But entirely failing to respect that an audience needs some form of closure is a slap in the face. It's engrained into us to want an ending to our stories. From the time our parents read us "The Pokey Little Puppy." The closure doesn't have to be happily ever after. It doesn't have to mean we think Angel has won all the fights and is now a happy human.

Fine. Redemption is a never ending struggle against greater forces. Great. Could you have made that point in a way that did not leave the characters that YOU wanted us to love entirely unresolved and facing off against the armies of hell?

I'm mentally ranting against a lot of people I have never personally met today.

[neo-dragon]

(No spoilers follow)

What I really found funny about the ending of Angel is that the only reason why it ended after season 5 at all is because the WB canceled it. Not to mention the budget cuts the show received, which is why so many episodes in season 5 takes place in the Wolfram and Hart building. Fans were of course pissed off by the decision. Then when the finale aired, immediately after the controversial final scene, WB put up a "thank you for your support" message to the fans. It was generally seen as insincere to say the least. I remember one post on aintitcool news comparing the whole situation to giving someone a puppy to love and raise for 5 years, then killing it and saying "thanks for caring for it". So you can blame Joss for the ending if you don't like it, but you should also blame the WB for not supporting the show during the final year and forcing Joss to end it before he wanted to.

And there's always the "After the Fall" comic series which you can read or look up on wikipedia if you want more Angel.

[Young Val]

Well, of course WB cut funding and ended the show earlier than I'd have liked. But Joss could have (and in my eyes, should have) come up with a more emotionally satisying ending. God knows, he managed to do it for Dollhouse (er...to an extent, anyway. I still can't process what he did to Boyd).

[ValentineNicole]

Last episode of Angel...

Honestly, Spike is the best man of all of them. I don't care what anyone else thinks.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

After the Fall was a much better follow-up to Angel than Season 8 was to Buffy.

Spike... is far and away the most interesting character in the Buffyverse. I like the ignore the bits where, say, he sits down and has a heart-to-heart with Joyce as simply writers just having no idea what to do with him once he was kept on for the sake of his popularity. The most interesting thing about Spike is even after his attempt at raping Buffy and getting his soul back, he doesn't spend the rest of his time in a remorseful fugue, or even desperately looking for a way to atone. That might just be because it would have been redundant for Angel, but Spike could have just as easily had his entire motivations reset by his ensoulment, but he doesn't. He's still Spike, he just gives some consideration to the pain he causes from there on out. Angel's soul gave him a messiah complex, Spike's just made him human.

I still can't process what he did to Boyd.

Thankfully I was watching it on hulu when that happened, and I could pause it and scream for a good half an hour before moving on.

[starlooker]

Today's reaction to the episodes where Angel becomes Angelus and then tries to play twisted mind games from inside a steel cage:

1. Could someone please, please, please smack Connor upside his peasy little head?

2. Gotta agree with Angelus about Cordy's yapping, lately.

3. SO glad the whole Wes, Gunn, and Fred triangle started getting some more traction.

4. Reminded me of the Buffy musical, the way that some untoward event means that everyone now knows everyone else's secrets.

5. On the whole, enjoying season four.

[starlooker]

More thoughts on the past several episodes.

1. Faith kicking Connor's ass = Awesome. Hallelujah, about time someone did it.

2. I'm not sure how I feel about the comparison I get to Alyson Hannigan, looks-wise. The scenes she and Fred had were hilarious.

3. It's weird thinking the person I think of as Zoe Washbourne acting like a being of creepy sweetness and light.

4. Loved Darla. Even though it's kind of impossible for Julie Benz not to look like a villain, no matter how much pink and white you dress her up in.

5. Cordelia = Sadness.

6. Lilah's death = Sadness. She was totally my favorite villain.

[starlooker]

Beginning of Season 5:

Eve is such a sad, sad, sad attempt at a replacement for Lilah. Pathetic, really. She looks like a little girl dressed up in her Mommy's clothes and lipstick.

[Jayelle]

All of these rants about Angel really express why I had trouble with that show as well. It just was so much "Hey, here's something you might like.....OH NO, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE IT AWAY NOW!" It speaks volumes to me that the only consistent cast member for all the episodes was Angel himself. I liked the first couple of seasons, and season three was okay, but even starting at the beginning with the death of Doyle, they just keep pulling the rug out from under your feet. It just never got comfortable.

[locke]

So... either my sister is now playing Dungeons and Dragons or I think my sister is watching Buffy now, this was on her facebook wall (K is my sister, D & M are two of her friends):

M: Anya,
I have a simple question for you. Do you like Wesley or Jonathan? This is a serious matter. Xander will be very upset, either way. But that's okay, because I want him now. (:

Love always,

...Buffy

D: xander not so upset yet maybe later

o
M: Xander may or may not be upset. But I will stay have him. Mwahahahaha......maybe.

o
K: um, why would xander be upset?

M: Because you're Anya, sweetie.

o
D: cause your anya????
o
K: okay this is like actually anya right not hypothetical anya

o
M: It's kind of both. I just wanna know if you like Jonathan or Wesley? Hmm. I think you know who they are hypothetically.

o
D: yes maybe answer the q!!!!

o
K: uh....no

o
M: I have the right to slay you if you don't answer.

o
D: aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaa

o
K: willow cant do a thing to me and buf, you dont scare me, im a vengeance demon

o
D: ex demons sweetie you can die

o
M: Ex-demon because you're blonde! Just wait until I stab you in the heart, Anya.

o
K: oh just get all technical, i can call on my scary demon friends to make it so you cant leave a house

o
M: Dude, I'll just slay 'em all. They totally don't give me the wiggins.

o
D: umm halleys not coming back remeber the house insident

o
K: I am like a thousand years both your superiors, you have no idea the contacts i created over that time frame

o
D: she the slayer and i have witchy powers

o
M: Anya, you're so dead if you slept with my Angel during that time frame.

o
K: yeah, they never really adressed that issue, though spike....

o
M: Ah, Spike just loves me. I just use him. ;D

o
K: oh well i am vengeance demon and that makes me awesome, ex or not, you are hardly an individual slayer anymore.....

o
M: Psh, please. Faith hasn't got anything on my awesomness.

o
K: this true but there are like hundreds of others now

o
M: Thanks to Willow!!

o
K: yep though at least you live through it
o
M: Yeah, now we should reverse the spell.

My little sister called herself a vengeance demon, I'm still loling over it. :-p

[Jayelle]

That is a very odd conversation. How old is your sister?

[locke]

she's nearly 16. :p

Buffy is an improvement on Twilight, though. she's also got in to doctor who of late.

[Eaquae Legit]

Doctor Who is awesome, and it also has the occasional vampire-like creature.

We watched the hyena episode last night. Buffy (the show) has aged pretty well! And it's weird seeing creepy-Xander for once. He's usually so affable. Also, I love that episode since it ushers in Principal Snyder, who I love so much.

[Paul]

I tried watching this show. I really did. I only made it about half way through the first season. I just have a lot of trouble suspending my disbelief. I mean come on, at least one student or teacher dies in every episode. Where are the cops, no wait, the feds. This school has a SERIOUS problem. Makes some of the horrible inner city schools look safe.

That being said, I LOVED firefly. I've seen every episode at least 5 times. And Dr. Horrible was great, if only there was more....

[Rei]

The first season really isn't all that spectacular.

Although with those as your issues, well the rest probably wouldn't impress you either.

[neo-dragon]

I tried watching this show. I really did. I only made it about half way through the first season. I just have a lot of trouble suspending my disbelief. I mean come on, at least one student or teacher dies in every episode. Where are the cops, no wait, the feds. This school has a SERIOUS problem. Makes some of the horrible inner city schools look safe.

It kind of makes more sense once you learn about the mayor... As well as a certain government initiative. Let's just say that people aren't really totally blind to what happens in Sunnydale. They just turn a blind eye to it.

Also, it's TV. Just about any drama that's set in a high school features weekly incidents that would be quite significant for a real school. Though not as extreme as Buffy, of course.

[Mich]

They really start making fun of it after a few seasons, too. Lampshades are hung on virtually everything, to use a phrase that people never know when I want them to.

[zeroguy]

Just about any drama that's set in a high school features weekly incidents that would be quite significant for a real school.

Psh, "Clone High" is quite appropriate for everyone's high school experience, and I won't stand for you trying to say otherwise.

"I would, ah, like to order the, er ah, party... plattah!"

[starlooker]

I never entirely concluded my thoughts after having watched the entire series of Angel, starting about halfway through Season 5 and working my way back around to the Season 5 finale again.

In the end, Kelly, I agree with you. Season Four was better than Season 5, although Season 5 did have a couple of really strong episodes. I bawled my head off at Fred's death. Makes me feel slightly bad for looking forward to her becoming Illyria (but not that bad).

Another rant along the lines of Jan's reasons for disliking the show -- it really, really pisses me off that Gunn and Fred got a whole storyline about their relationship and Wesley and Fred got, what, half an episode to be happy and then, BAM!

Seasons 2 and 3 were probably my favorites and strongest overall. I'm still recording some individual episodes from those seasons to watch in the morning, and will likely stop once we hit Cordy's amnesia.

Do really love the series, overall, though. Considering watching Buffy.

It has somewhat further ruined my experience of watching Bones, though. Because David Boreanaz looks so much older when I watch Bones in the evenings than he does when I watch Angel in the mornings*, and so I mentally subtract hotness points that he probably really does deserve if I weren't unconsciously comparing him to his younger, vampiric self. (Although I am liking Season 6 better than most of Season 5 of Bones, all the same.)


*And now I am mentally singing to myself, "Just call him Angel, in the mornings, Angel..."

[Eaquae Legit]

I saw part of an episode of Bones last night. David Boreanz in his somewhat older iteration looks less freakishly like Hegemon-John (unless he's aged as well, so who knows). I could maybe stand to watch him in that. It's too creepy seeing him as Angel.

[Paul]

I know this isnt strictly buffy related, but does anyone watch Castle? It's a show about a crime writer (played by Nathan Fillion from firefly) who follows around a cop looking for inspiration for his next book. Lots of cleaver puns and other hilariously stupid jokes.

[Paul]

I know this isnt strictly buffy related, but does anyone watch Castle? It's a show about a crime writer (played by Nathan Fillion from firefly) who follows around a cop looking for inspiration for his next book. Lots of cleaver puns and other hilariously stupid jokes.

[neo-dragon]

Buffy's heading to the big screen

[Jayelle]

Buffy's heading to the big screen

UGH. Do not get me started. I'm in denial. Hoping it gets Ender's Game'd.

[neo-dragon]

I don't see why it necessarily has to be a bad thing. Some reboots have been pretty awesome. ie. BSG, Batman Begins/Dark Knight, the new Bond films.