Determinism.

[Darth Petra]

The reason I ask is because in the Jewish faith, that is one of the unforgiveable sins.

I'm a Christian. We believe that anything can be forgiven.

[Slim]

What about rejection of the Holy Ghost? (see Topical Guide: Holy Ghost, Unpardonable Sin against)
'course, that basically means (to me anyway) that such a person won't repent.

But, anyway, the way I see it yes all sin, any sin, separates one from God. What I see as a sin being worse than another is by how difficult it is to repent from that sin. Murder and Adultery are two of the worse sins, because no matter what one does, one cannot undo what he/she did.

But I do believe that through Christ anyone can be forgiven after sincere repentance, which includes asking forgiveness from God and from those we wronged. Some things cannot be fixed, but we should follow inspiration from the Holy Ghost to do all that we can to fix the problems we may have caused.

In the case of murder (among others), I believe it is important to submit to the punishments of the laws of the land to be forgiven.

[BeansBrother]

Slim, what about idolatry? Do you think that that is forgiveable?

[Azarel]

Sin is such a widely debated subject, but my two cents worth is that sin, is sin. Any amount of it, is too much for God. This means that there is no difference between murder and secretly wishing someone would die, or between stealing something or keeping something from somebody, even when you know they need it and it would cost nothing to provide it.

I have spent the morning in a Prison, as part of a Christian ministry, with a range of prisoners who have been judged by the 'law of the land'. In regards to Slim's point about murder, submitting to the law of the land does not bring forgiveness. These men might not have heard the word forgiveness if it were not for their chaplain, their interest in God or people like my ministry colleagues telling them that if they repent (say sorry to God for their sin, and live without committing it in future) they are forgiven.

It is called 'the Justice system' for one reason... It is not interested in forgiving, but rather placing blame, and punishing crime. No mention in the courtroom about forgiveness beside the regular movie quote "may God have mercy on your soul". Apparently, humans need not forgive each other once the hammer hits the gavel.

Well I do not agree. sin is wrong, crime is wrong, but if sin is indeed measurable then, to not forgive is a bigger sin than most things listed in this thread.

When Jesus was on the cross, he did not take a thief into heaven, he took a thief who repented, into heaven. If that is good enough for God, then it is good enough for me.

[Slim]

Slim, what about idolatry? Do you think that that is forgiveable?

Yes. Throughout the scriptures, people are constantly preaching against idolatry, and I think it would be pretty pointless preaching if they could not repent. Except for the unpardonable sin I mentioned earlier, I believe repentance is possible for every sin by following the same pattern: realize we have sinned, feel sorrow for our sins, pray in faith for forgiveness, do all we can to correct the problems our sins have caused, and don't do it again.

...In regards to Slim's point about murder, submitting to the law of the land does not bring forgiveness....

I agree. I only believe it is an important part of forgiveness. The Lord doesn't strike me as someone who forgives one who dodges the consequences of his/her actions. But, yes, after that there still remains the rest of the repentance process.

And yeah -- we often forget that if we expect forgiveness, we need to forgive others. It is sad when someone has or is repenting, and people will not give forgiveness. Life is much more peaceful for those who forgive and repent.

[Darth Petra]

The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief.

[Eaquae Legit]

Slim, what about idolatry? Do you think that that is forgiveable?

Yes. Throughout the scriptures, people are constantly preaching against idolatry, and I think it would be pretty pointless preaching if they could not repent. Except for the unpardonable sin I mentioned earlier, I believe repentance is possible for every sin by following the same pattern: realize we have sinned, feel sorrow for our sins, pray in faith for forgiveness, do all we can to correct the problems our sins have caused, and don't do it again.

...In regards to Slim's point about murder, submitting to the law of the land does not bring forgiveness....

I agree. I only believe it is an important part of forgiveness. The Lord doesn't strike me as someone who forgives one who dodges the consequences of his/her actions. But, yes, after that there still remains the rest of the repentance process.

And yeah -- we often forget that if we expect forgiveness, we need to forgive others. It is sad when someone has or is repenting, and people will not give forgiveness. Life is much more peaceful for those who forgive and repent.

I like Mormons because there's really a lot of areas where the moral theology matches Catholic moral theology. There's a lot of common ground that makes conversations easier.

[Rei]

And yeah -- we often forget that if we expect forgiveness, we need to forgive others. It is sad when someone has or is repenting, and people will not give forgiveness. Life is much more peaceful for those who forgive and repent.

I agree that this is a most terrible thing. Little can be done to hurt a truly repentant person like denying them forgiveness.

[BeansBrother]

The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief.

Do you really believe that? What about all the converts? Because if so, then converting won't "save you from eternal hell" if it is unpardonable not to have believed at some point in your life.

[Darth Petra]

The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief.

Do you really believe that? What about all the converts? Because if so, then converting won't "save you from eternal hell" if it is unpardonable not to have believed at some point in your life.

I meant continued unbelief, even when you have been told otherwise. You could repent and believe, two minutes before you die, and you'd still be saved. But if you carried unbelief to the grave, then you'd get Eternal Hell.

[Azarel]

The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief.

Do you really believe that? What about all the converts? Because if so, then converting won't "save you from eternal hell" if it is unpardonable not to have believed at some point in your life.

I meant continued unbelief, even when you have been told otherwise. You could repent and believe, two minutes before you die, and you'd still be saved. But if you carried unbelief to the grave, then you'd get Eternal Hell.

Yes when I read darth's first post I thought, "ooh that's a bit harsh, isn't it?" but then I came to the same conclusion as darth's explanation. Now, if that sounds harsh then its another matter but in the christian faith that's pretty much the only thing that is going to put you in an unforgivable state.

[Bean_wannabe]

The way I view hell is that it is not so much a physical torment, but the regret and shame that you missed out on heaven and that you were such an idiot to do so.

[Azarel]

The way I view hell is that it is not so much a physical torment, but the regret and shame that you missed out on heaven and that you were such an idiot to do so.

And for people who believe in several layers of hell, then what you have described would most likely be the first layer, I imagine so anyway, don't take my word for it.

[Darth Petra]

The way I view hell is that it is not so much a physical torment, but the regret and shame that you missed out on heaven and that you were such an idiot to do so.

I think how bad Hell is is based on how bad you were in life. I think Hitler deserves more than eternal regret.

[Bean_wannabe]

But surely eternal regret would be a lot worse for him anyway, knowing that he missd out by so much, and the realisation of how bad his life was

[Darth Petra]

But surely eternal regret would be a lot worse for him anyway, knowing that he missd out by so much, and the realisation of how bad his life was

But I think you get the regret along with physical torture. Hell is not a nice place.

[jotabe]

Justice, the best we humans can understand it, implies that the punishment should be proportional to the crime. Due to the finitude of our lives, this proportionality cannot be always achieved, and sometimes even the supreme punishment (death) seems not enough.
No matter how much evil Hitler (let's use him as just an example) commited. The pain and suffering he caused was finite. So his punishment, if it was to be completely just, should be finite (albeit rather large).
A being of infinite sense of justice, with infinite intelligence, and having infinite time, surely could come up with a more suitable punishment than hell (unimaginable pain during infinite time).

There is no possible justice in having Hell as punishment for sin. And we aren't even entering in the matter that refusing to believe in God is as much of a sin as genocide (as they say that God won't allow sin at all in his presence, and it's either with him or in Hell, no purgatory, no permanent death).

[BeansBrother]

Well first I would like to say, WOW! I have not been on this forum in a while. Great to be back. Anyway, onto the reply.

The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief.

Do you really believe that? What about all the converts? Because if so, then converting won't "save you from eternal hell" if it is unpardonable not to have believed at some point in your life.

I meant continued unbelief, even when you have been told otherwise. You could repent and believe, two minutes before you die, and you'd still be saved. But if you carried unbelief to the grave, then you'd get Eternal Hell.

Petra, if I do say so myself, that is condemning a rather large majority of the population of the world. For instance, many in South/East/Southeast Asia do not believe that Christ himself was the Messiah, nor do they believe that there was a Messiah in the first place.

Many a' famous people have not been Christian, yet have been those considered "in heaven." I am speaking of those like Gandhi, Hamurabbi, Julius Ceasar (yes, I think he was a great man, and deserves to be in Heaven), and all those great men and women who happened to not believe that Jesus was the son of G-d.

So, as I believe I will never believe that Jesus was the Messiah, as the figure of speech goes, "I will say 'Hello' to Gandhi in hell." (No offense meant, by the way).

[Darth Petra]

I'm only saying what I've been taught. I don't know what I believe at this moment in time.

I know it seems harsh, and I don't really have an answer. I honestly don't know squat.

[Azarel]

Yes, Bean'sBrother, sorry if the Christians among us sating that if someone does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and son of God who Died to reconcile humans to God and then rose again, and will come again to fulfil the rest of the biblical prophesies won't be going to heaven, upsets you in any way, or goes against what you believe is fair, but that is in fact the truth that we believe.

The very name of Jesus (not Greek but Hebrew, Y'shua) means 'God is Salvation' and he stated and we believe that He is the Son of God and yet at the same time, He is God, in the same way, for instance, that Snow is also Water.

This is what I believe, I chosen to believe this above everything. Above Tao, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, above all martial arts, above buddism, above reality TV, above horoscopes and tea leaves.

From this belief, it is difficult then to digress and then say, "Oh they were quite a helpful nice person, we could let 'em come into heaven I suppose". Because it doesn't really wash. I'm not saying it's not harsh in one sense. But when Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me" you have to wonder why people sit there thinking, 'Nah, there MUST be a loophole'.


I truly don't mean to offend or condemn, but if you're searching for the beliefs of the people around you, living in the same world as you, then I've given you mine, for what it's worth if anything.

[jotabe]

Azarel... why would you want to worship such a God? A God willing to do that is, in my oppinion, evil, and would deserve but rebellion.

[BeansBrother]

Yes, Bean'sBrother, sorry if the Christians among us sating that if someone does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and son of God who Died to reconcile humans to God and then rose again, and will come again to fulfil the rest of the biblical prophesies won't be going to heaven, upsets you in any way, or goes against what you believe is fair, but that is in fact the truth that we believe.

The very name of Jesus (not Greek but Hebrew, Y'shua) means 'God is Salvation' and he stated and we believe that He is the Son of God and yet at the same time, He is God, in the same way, for instance, that Snow is also Water.

This is what I believe, I chosen to believe this above everything. Above Tao, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, above all martial arts, above buddism, above reality TV, above horoscopes and tea leaves.

From this belief, it is difficult then to digress and then say, "Oh they were quite a helpful nice person, we could let 'em come into heaven I suppose". Because it doesn't really wash. I'm not saying it's not harsh in one sense. But when Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me" you have to wonder why people sit there thinking, 'Nah, there MUST be a loophole'.


I truly don't mean to offend or condemn, but if you're searching for the beliefs of the people around you, living in the same world as you, then I've given you mine, for what it's worth if anything.

Don't worry, I don't think anyone is offended by this conversation. At least I am not.

Anyway, maybe I don't know much about Christianity, but is all you have to do believe that Jesus was the Savior to get into Heaven? Because then if that was true (which I don't believe is the grounds for any sane religion - no offense), it is more of, I guess you could say, a clique, a popularity contest, or, I don't want to say it, but a cult.

Because if all you have to do to get into "the Next World" is believe someone is God, then it is just like: "Oh, well, if you don't like our leader, you are going to hell." I mean, really! Say you just don't believe in anything that Jesus said? I mean, I can understand how people would believe that all those who don't believe in him don't get into Heaven, but to go to Hell for it?

In my personal opinion, I would much rather just go to the Christian Purgatory for not believing Jesus was the Messiah instead of being punished for it.

Its one of those things, you know? Like if you are a "new" adult (just turned 18), and you decide not to go to college, you don't get punished for it, you just don't get rewarded. I don't think that the US government has the right to punish those who decide they want don't want to do something, I just think they have the right to punish those who do decide to do something that is against the law.

Anyway, off this tangent, if the whole "just believe Jesus was the Messiah and you get into Heaven" is the only requirement, wouldn't that mean that Stalin, Hitler, and all of those who took part in the Inquisition automatically go to Heaven?

Also, does your choice in a believe give you the right to condemn those who don't believe in what you do? Because I am sure in Islam, you are going to the Muslim version of Hell, and in Buddhism... well, Buddhism makes more sense because the only thing that happens to you for not believing all their ideas is you not receiving enlightenment.

In your response where you said,

From this belief, it is difficult then to digress and then say, "Oh they were quite a helpful nice person, we could let 'em come into heaven I suppose". Because it doesn't really wash. I'm not saying it's not harsh in one sense. But when Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me" you have to wonder why people sit there thinking, 'Nah, there MUST be a loophole'.

is really... I don't even know. Because say you don't believe in Jesus? Then why should you care what he says about "coming to the Father?" If you don't believe in Christianity, then you can completely disregard anything that Jesus has said in relation to religious life.






On a seperate tangent, I want to know what you think about the prophecy of Isiah concerning the Messiah in Judaism. Isiah prophecized that when the Messiah came, all the dead would be ressurected to live in this world. It has also been stated that the Messiah would be a direct descendant of King David of Zion, who would usher in an age of peace and justice.

I can understand how some may speculate that Jesus was a direct descendant of David. That cannot be disproven, as we don't have DNA evidence to the contrary. However, even if he was, peace has not been "ushered in," nor has justice.

And the most dangerous part of this prophecy is that all the dead in the world are not alive now.

[Slim]

I was totally baffled once. One lady was arguing with us on my mission, and she said the only thing we need to do is be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. (in hindsight, why was she even arguing with us? Was her point that we will be condemned for doing more? ) We asked if such a person then were to go out and murder people if he/she would make it to heaven and she said yes.

Although many Christians may say that, I would say most (hopefully anyway) of us believe that one actually must do the things he taught to return to our Heavenly Father.

And as to unfulfilled Old Testament prophecies on Christ, we see them as prophecies concerning when Jesus Christ comes in a future second coming, and that it will be at that time that the dead will rise and Christ will rule over the Earth for a millennium of peace.

[BeansBrother]

I was totally baffled once. One lady was arguing with us on my mission, and she said the only thing we need to do is be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. (in hindsight, why was she even arguing with us? Was her point that we will be condemned for doing more? ) We asked if such a person then were to go out and murder people if he/she would make it to heaven and she said yes.

Although many Christians may say that, I would say most (hopefully anyway) of us believe that one actually must do the things he taught to return to our Heavenly Father.

And as to unfulfilled Old Testament prophecies on Christ, we see them as prophecies concerning when Jesus Christ comes in a future second coming, and that it will be at that time that the dead will rise and Christ will rule over the Earth for a millennium of peace.

Ah, well, that second part makes sense in some way I guess, about the "second coming" then. But why for a millenium? Why not for eternity? Will there be a cycle-like thing that keeps on going, 2,000 years in between a 1,000 year period of world peace?

[Azarel]

Ah, well, that second part makes sense in some way I guess, about the "second coming" then. But why for a millenium? Why not for eternity? Will there be a cycle-like thing that keeps on going, 2,000 years in between a 1,000 year period of world peace?

I imagine because after that, God, as stated in Revelations, will created the new heaven and the new earth and the new Jerusalem. That's where eternity would step in.

The ushered in peace you speak of, I believe it to be the peace that comes from depending on God solely to, in every situation, with every plan you make, to provide the solution and things you need to live and for him to put you in the place you're meant to be while on earth.

As for believing in Jesus and getting into heaven automatically, I shall repeat that it was NOT a thief who Jesus took into heaven the day he was crucified, it was REPENTANT thief. To believe in Jesus would bring with it the way to live your life. I mean to say to live as he did. To be forgiving, unselfish, obedient, sharing, and many other things but also dependant on God to show him the way.

I'm guessing Stalin and Hitler wouldn't been all that sorry for what they did, and we all how defiant Saddam was even when his sentence was pronounced...

So, I think we need to amend or extend belief in Jesus with the other just as important principle of saying sorry for the things we've done wrong but also to refrain from doing them in future. That is the way, as I believe.

[Slim]

Ah, well, that second part makes sense in some way I guess, about the "second coming" then. But why for a millenium? Why not for eternity? Will there be a cycle-like thing that keeps on going, 2,000 years in between a 1,000 year period of world peace?

I imagine because after that, God, as stated in Revelations, will created the new heaven and the new earth and the new Jerusalem. That's where eternity would step in.

Yeah, I was thinking about Revelation 20, where it says Satan will be bound for 1,000 years, at the end of which he will be loosed for a "little season," then after that is the Final Judgment.