Determinism.

[Boothby]

Enough.

Fish Tank...what point are you trying to make?

[Boothby]

"You guys are, Bashing, Ridiculing, or degradating my system of beliefs

Specifically the belief that if God exists determinism must. And my belief that God does not exist."



Regarding your first belief, I was not "Bashing, Ridiculing, or degradating" it. I was opposing it, and stating my reasons why.

Regarding your second belief, I was trying to find out if that really was your belief. Your way you state this belief is a little out of the ordinary, and I wasn't quite sure at times where you stood. Since I am also an atheist, I think that it can hardly be said that I was Bashing, Ridiculing, or degradating your somewhat similar beleif.

I believe that the other posters here were also frustrated with how you were expressing yourself.

[Fish Tank]

Why do I understand theology better than you, what with me being an atheist and all? It's like someone from Japan asking me to translate...

That isn't ridicule?

[Xenocide]

I personally don't like the idea behind determinism but I beleive in god. He gave us free will, so we can make choices. God knows what we are going to do because he knows us so well... he know everything about everything, right? If you know everything you're bound to know exactly whats going to happen next, correct?

[Boothby]

No, actually, it's not.

It's a challenge, or it's good-natured "ribbing." If you consider that ridicule, then I would propose to you that your skin's far too thin for you to be out by yourself on the Internet yet.

[Boothby]

Xeno,

"God knows what we are going to do because he knows us so well... "

That's not the fear. And it's not the JCSG model. In theory, God knows what we are going to do next because he's already seen what we are going to do next. He never has to "predict" anything.

That is, assuming there's a God.

[Eaquae Legit]

Steve, I'd just like to say I appreciate your presence here again.

[Fish Tank]

No, actually, it's not.

It's a challenge, or it's good-natured "ribbing." If you consider that ridicule, then I would propose to you that your skin's far too thin for you to be out by yourself on the Internet yet.

That sounds like more ridicule to me.

[Xenocide]

He never has to "predict" anything.

It's not prediction because it's the only possible outcome. So God would literally know what's going to happen before hand.

Of course I beleive that nothing is random.

If you beleive anything can be random it's a differant case.

[Boothby]

Xeno,

You're missing the point.

In theory, a being that transcends time can see all moments at once, or may flit from moment to moment across the span of time, without constraint. It's like editing a video, and using the scrub feature (non-linear editing!). You don't need to predict anything. You know what's going to happen next because you've already seen it happen. There is no "before hand." There is no before or after in the sense we currently have.

[Xenocide]

Isn't it possible such a being isn't capable of that?

[jotabe]

Boothby, you are assuming that all instants of time exist.

[Guest]

Wow, so now we're going to debate whether certain statements are ridicule or just vociferous discussion?

How f*ing lame.

[Dr. Mobius]

How many accounts are you planning on getting banned on this new board?

[Guest]

Uh... Zero?

Because that's the number of accounts I've gotten banned thus far. You forget your insulin or something?

[Boothby]

Guest,

I'm not debating that.


Jota, Xeno,

I'm not assuming "all instants (or instances) of time exist "

I'm saying that if you propose a time-transcendent being, then (by definition) that being is not bound by linear time as we know it.

Personally, I believe that no such being exists. I further believe that "all instants of time existing at once" is a meaningless statement, primarily because I also believe that a time-transcendent mode of existence is not possible.


"Isn't it possible such a being isn't capable of that?"

At that point, we're debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Since I do not believe in angels, it is a meaningless discussion. I'm not going to defend a concept I do not believe in. In other words--I do not believe that such a being exists or could exist.

[jotabe]

I have to agree with you there, boothby.
I don't believe that God exists as a being trascending time, because

"all instants of time existing at once" is a meaningless statement",

as you said, for me as well.

[Boothby]

OK, then...

So we need to redefine what omniscient means, then. We may also need to redefine what omnipotent means.

Or are those descriptions of the JCSG not from the Bible, but from later apologeticists and philosophers?

Is God (the JCSG) all powerful or all knowing? Or is He less than that?

[jotabe]

I think that concepts like "omniscient" and "omnipotent" have been used quite liberally by theologists along history... i would like to redefine them, too... but of course, what is the point of defining something that, by definition, goes beyond our own finitude?

I always thought that this part of theology was like fireworks: very funny and very pretty to see... but of little to none actual importance and practical usefulness.

Edit: When Jesus talks about thos attributes for God, he says "He who can do anything", or "Nothing is impossible for Him". Having in account he didn't speak for doctors in jewish theology, but for laymen, usually with very little actual formal education, one can wonder how literally those words are to be taken.

[Boothby]

Jota,

"...but of course, what is the point of defining something that, by definition, goes beyond our own finitude"

As humans, we are always defining, or trying to define things that go beyond our own finitude. Think: astronomy, philosophy.

I've been trying for YEARS to get religious people to describe the critical attributes of the God they believe in, but typically no one wants to do it.

That, or they just don't really know all that much about the being they profess to believe in.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

As a physics student, and emphasis on student because my understanding is FAR from complete, but quantum mechanics tells us that determinism in the physical universe is a crock. There would seem to be entirely random, probabilistic occurences in the universe.

That is that as we currently understand the universe, it is absolutlely impossible to determine the exact location in space of any given wave-particle of matter-energy. This means that each moment in time exists only as a matter of probability, not certainty.

For instance, consider the universe as you know it now. How do you know that a moment ago the universe was not entirely different? Your memories? What are your memories really that they couldn't have been altered by shifts in the physical composition of your brain?

The universe shifts and changes, yes, but it's physically, totally impossible to predict where it goes next. There is no chain of dominoes that can be absolutely certain from start to finish of how the universe will play itself out.

Determinism is a physical impossibilty, and without taking things to a realm where it's pointless for us as humans to discuss, we can be as certain as possible that there's no 100% set in stone fate for any of us.

[Vergil]

This kind of seems like Oedipus' problem. He was destined to do the things he did, but he himself carried out his destined, and by his own actions 'fulfilled' prophecy. I find it fascinating that the same questions are debated throughout human history. I wish we could get Sophocles point of view on this. Or Aristotle's.

Anyways, here's mine. If there is a God, then He probably is omniscient and omnipotent, and probably has a sense of humor and is laughing at us for trying to redefine those two terms, and that He exists on another plane of existence. So that our choices, due to His omniscient, He must know, but like a scientist observing fish in a pond. The fish have no idea what is above surface, so they act how they normally act, making their own decisions, but this God sees, knows and hopefully loves all. And the fish only can tell when their is something more when the surface ripples. Does that make any sense?

And if there is no God, or Higher Power, or Watchmaker, if you will, then we must have free will, for what would control us? Or know our futures, by some sort of constraining knowledge? Nothing that I can think of. Unless of course, we say that because we are entirely our genes and environment, we already have no control because we are preconditioned. I don't know a lot about psychology. Is what how it works?

[Azarel]

The original purpose for Humans was to exist with God. Adam and Eve were very really with God. Physically close and intellectually close. Everything God made was brought to Adam for him to name.

Adam and Eve mess that up when disobeyed. From then on God's purpose for humans is to enable them to come back to that closeness of being with God in a real sense. Christians believe in the first pentecost in which the Spirit of God was able to be in humanity again and therefore bring about a closer way for man to relate with God, without the need for animal sacrifices to apologise for sins, now you can just tell God; without the need for a priest to serve as a middle man all the time (I'm not against Catholics but it does say Jesus the new High Priest, that's all I'm saying here).

Following from there, the promise of a new Heaven and a New earth for God and Humans to once again live together. That is the purpose.

What happens inbetween birth and death is most certainly KNOWN by God but on most occasions DECIDED by us. This can of course affect God's purpose for us, and that is due to the free will God has very really given us. Most of us DO know right from wrong and rationalisations of what we want do not change whether an action is right or not.

So, in short, God knows what He wants for us, God knows what we want for ourselves and sometimes, the two coincide; Happily ever after.

--
Again, my beliefs, in a forum sized nutshell.

[Azarel]

I've been trying for YEARS to get religious people to describe the critical attributes of the God they believe in, but typically no one wants to do it.

Several posts I've written today might be what you're after Boothby, in as mush as I've been writing what I believe to be attributes of God and his purpose.

[Azarel]

Anyways, here's mine. If there is a God, then He probably is omniscient and omnipotent, and probably has a sense of humor and is laughing at us for trying to redefine those two terms, and that He exists on another plane of existence. So that our choices, due to His omniscient, He must know, but like a scientist observing fish in a pond. The fish have no idea what is above surface, so they act how they normally act, making their own decisions, but this God sees, knows and hopefully loves all. And the fish only can tell when their is something more when the surface ripples. Does that make any sense?

You know, I love that Fish anaolgy, and to add more, I laugh when thinking that those two same fish, after seeing the surface ripple, see that some food has appeared "from out of nowhere" as far as they are concerned, and then they eat the food. But of course like so many of us, they don't care or even wonder where the food came from, they just eat.

lol... I love that, fantastic.

[BeansBrother]

NOTE: Before you read any further, note that I did not read the whole thread. It's waaaaaaaay to long for me, especially because I am just checking here in a break between my homework assignments.

Anyway, onto the reply.

To what... wow... I just forgot the writer of this article's name... anyway, to the writer, I have always thought that God (if there is one, don't throw my words back at me) knows all the different possibilities there are for a person to make in their life. That means hundreds of billions of billions of billions, but if there is a God, then aren't they "Godly"-enough to know all of those?

Well, that's my two cents. I will check back here later, and maybe read the whole thing.

[Darth Petra]

I think...He knows everything....but he doesn't control it. I mean, KNOW how Ender's Game ends, but you didn't manipulate it that way.
I think it's the same thing. God knows what we're going to do, but he doesn't control our actions. If he did, we'd be mindless puppets, and it wouldn't be fair for him to send us to Hell.

[jotabe]

and it wouldn't be fair for him to send us to Hell.

I know what you mean there, but try to see what is said there. What could be fair in there. Is there any sin of which it can be said that, fairly, deserves eternal torture as punishment?

[Darth Petra]

and it wouldn't be fair for him to send us to Hell.

I know what you mean there, but try to see what is said there. What could be fair in there. Is there any sin of which it can be said that, fairly, deserves eternal torture as punishment?

Does Hilter deserve Heaven?

But I've heard that God treats all sin the same- sin is sin is sin is sin.
I've also heard it said that the fair thing to do would be to send us all to Hell, but He's being merciful and giving us another chance, should be choose to take it.

[BeansBrother]

and it wouldn't be fair for him to send us to Hell.

I know what you mean there, but try to see what is said there. What could be fair in there. Is there any sin of which it can be said that, fairly, deserves eternal torture as punishment?

Does Hilter deserve Heaven?

But I've heard that God treats all sin the same- sin is sin is sin is sin.
I've also heard it said that the fair thing to do would be to send us all to Hell, but He's being merciful and giving us another chance, should be choose to take it.

Well, the question is, if EVERYONE has sinned (and we know everyone has because of that story with the Rabbi and the Adulterer in Speaker, which I find completely true), then if sin is sin is sin is sin, then we should all go to Hell, as you said.

That is why I think that God does not think that sin is sin is sin is sin (if there is a God). I think that there is definitely bounds, as stated in the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament (the Three Sins that Cannot be Excused to Save Another's Life), that only those that have commited murder, adultery, and idolatry should be sent to Hell.

Thus, Hitler should go to hell, considering he commited maybe two of three, or possibly three of three (murder [millions of people] and adultery [his girlfriend, Eva, and him probably 99.9% chance had sexual relations], and maybe idolatry [who knows, maybe he worshipped another fuehrer or something...]).[/quote]

[zeroguy]

Well, the question is, if EVERYONE has sinned (and we know everyone has because of that story with the Rabbi and the Adulterer in Speaker, which I find completely true), then if sin is sin is sin is sin, then we should all go to Hell, as you said.

I may not know a lot about Christianity, but I thought the bigger deal was not being repentant. Sins are all equal in being damned, as well as in being forgiven for them. So, not everyone would go to hell.

[BeansBrother]

Well, the question is, if EVERYONE has sinned (and we know everyone has because of that story with the Rabbi and the Adulterer in Speaker, which I find completely true), then if sin is sin is sin is sin, then we should all go to Hell, as you said.

I may not know a lot about Christianity, but I thought the bigger deal was not being repentant. Sins are all equal in being damned, as well as in being forgiven for them. So, not everyone would go to hell.

This is actually a question, and not sarcasm, by the way:
So is it possible to be forgiven for murder?

[Eaquae Legit]

Yes.

[Darth Petra]

Well, the question is, if EVERYONE has sinned (and we know everyone has because of that story with the Rabbi and the Adulterer in Speaker, which I find completely true), then if sin is sin is sin is sin, then we should all go to Hell, as you said.

I may not know a lot about Christianity, but I thought the bigger deal was not being repentant. Sins are all equal in being damned, as well as in being forgiven for them. So, not everyone would go to hell.

This is actually a question, and not sarcasm, by the way:
So is it possible to be forgiven for murder?

Yes, If you are truly sorry. Although being a murder would ruin your life on earth.

[BeansBrother]

The reason I ask is because in the Jewish faith, that is one of the unforgiveable sins.