Determinism.

[Fish Tank]

Was wondering everyone's thought on this subject.


Personally I hate the idea of none of my decisions being truly my own decision.

I also think that if there is a god then determinism must exist. If God knows everything then he certainly would know how our entire lives are going to play out. I don't know about you, but to me that's unsettling.

No matter what we do: when we die, what we're gong to accomplish, whether or not we fall in love etc... is decided for us at birth. Whether or not we will be a drug addict, murderer, arsonist is already decided.

[Rei]

I'm not really enough of a Calvinist to argue for determinism.

[hive_king]

there's a difference between knowing what someone is going to do, and making it happen. I knew this guy on the speech and debate team was going to give a speech on Pakistan. I knew 100% he was, because thats the only subjecthe seems to speak on. But I didn't make him speak on it. I just know him well enough that I knew that was what he was going to do. That's how God works.

[Sibyl]

Was wondering everyone's thought on this subject.


Personally I hate the idea of none of my decisions being truly my own decision.

I also think that if there is a god then determinism must exist. If God knows everything then he certainly would know how our entire lives are going to play out. I don't know about you, but to me that's unsettling.

No matter what we do: when we die, what we're gong to accomplish, whether or not we fall in love etc... is decided for us at birth. Whether or not we will be a drug addict, murderer, arsonist is already decided.

I don't think so. God gave us Free Will to do what we want to do.

[Fish Tank]

You're not free to do anything if everything is decided for you.

How can it be your decision if the action you take is already planned?

I didn't say God decides for you, I said everything you decide is already decided. Therefore there is never a decision to begin with. A decision requires you to choose and there can be no choice involved if everything you do is already known. You are going to do what god knows you're going to do.


You can say, "I'm going to work and Im only going to take right turns". But then you take a left turn. But your decision to not take all right turns and take a left was already decided before you got into your car.

But you see h_k you didn't know he was going to even give that speech. He could have gotten ill and not been able to make it. He could have decided to give a different speech. He could have died before he spoke.

God knows exactly what will happen to you until the day you die. Every decision you make is decided and has been decided before you were born. If God knows everything.

If we have freewill how can God know what actions we will take?

[Rei]

I think I mentioned it elsewhere just a few minutes ago. God's already seen the show, so He knows what's going to happen next.

[Fish Tank]

God created the show, the actors and the plot.

[Rei]

He created the show, the actors, and the setting. He also said, "I will decide when the curtain falls." Aside from that and some directoral notes, I think He's giving the actors and actresses a lot of say in the script.

[Fish Tank]

If he knows the ending and decides when it happens how can he not control the plot?

[eriador]

There are many ways to get to the same ending. Perhaps the plot has no bearing on how it ends. So it doesn't matter what the f*** you do, the ending is still gonna be the same. Have fun.

[suminonA]

Have fun.

Man, this is the best thing you've said all day! (IMHO)

A.

PS: Cut it out with the *** words, please. Thanks.

[zeroguy]

"They are writing the story, and you are acting out that story."
"You're saying I don't have free will."
"If you prefer, you are writing the story through your own free actions, and they are simply copying it down. It's one and the same."

-- Jim Ursetto

[hive_king]

Fishtank, did you read a word I said?

[Fish Tank]

Yes I did and I responded, "But you see h_k you didn't know he was going to even give that speech. He could have gotten ill and not been able to make it. He could have decided to give a different speech. He could have died before he spoke.

[hive_king]

no, it was an impromptu speech. He had to get up and make it up on the top of his head. I knew it was going to happen.

[Fish Tank]

He could have tripped on the way to the front of the room and broke his ankle. He could have fallen and bitten his tongue in half. He could have passed out from the pressure of giving a speech. There is no way of knowing for certain that it was going to happen or what he was going to say.

[hive_king]

So what if I had traveled to the future, watched him give the speech, and came back? I'd know he was going to give it and exactly what he'd say.

[Fish Tank]

You being in the future would change it. If he saw two of you there he might not be able to give the speech.

Didn't you ever watch "Back to the Future"?

[hive_king]

What if I was merely viewing the future with a chronoscope?

[Fish Tank]

Say you watch the future an hour before it happens, because you know what happens you'd have to do exactly as you did. But because you know what happens you're not likely to do the exact same thing you would have done had you not known what it is that you were going to do.

[Eaquae Legit]

Back to the Future is now the authority on the theoretical effects of time travel? Hahahaha. Heh heh.

I believe we have free will.

And even if we don't, we still have to act like we do. So there's no point in getting all fussed about it.

[hive_king]

Say you watch the future an hour before it happens, because you know what happens you'd have to do exactly as you did. But because you know what happens you're not likely to do the exact same thing you would have done had you not known what it is that you were going to do.

That doesn't even make sense.

[Fish Tank]

Back to the Future is now the authority on the theoretical effects of time travel? Hahahaha. Heh heh.

I believe we have free will.

And even if we don't, we still have to act like we do. So there's no point in getting all fussed about it.

That was a joke. Since you know... time travel doesn't exist.

Of course it doesn't make sense h_k. Just like you going through time.

[jotabe]

Well, i believe in God, and i believe we are free (free will). Actually God is who guarantees me that i am free.

Is God's omniscience a problem for free will? not really, in my oppinion.
The future doesn't exist, it's just a construct of our minds, and as such, a physically faulty concept, like speed or position).
Is a fault that God doesn't know the absolutely exact position and speed of a particle in a certain moment? No, not at all. In the same way, it is not a fault in his omniscience that he doesn't know our "future".

Of course, considering that one of God's attributes has to be "being a perfect computing device", he surely can calculate the probabilities of every single event in the universe. But only that: probabilities. Actual events don't exist till they happen.

[Fish Tank]

If god knows everything and all that will happen and has happened. He surely knows our entire lives.

If he is all powerful, he can change any part of our life that he wants. He can influence decisions and change minds.

Personally I see God exercising his power more than Christians think he does.

God is vengeful, spiteful, jealous, mean, nasty, murderous, and unforgiving. Read your bible.

[jotabe]

FT, you are not thinking of God, but of the Devil

[Fish Tank]

I wish I was.

[Slim]

What is the purpose of life?

If it is to be robots doing only a predetermined path, then determinism makes sense.

I believe part of the purpose of life is to learn from our mistakes, and from other's mistakes. Learning the consequenses helps us to make better choices in the future. In this situation, not only does determinism not make sense, but free will is required

But virtually any purpose one can find in life besides the first will rule out determinism.

I like what Hive King said in his first reply.

If we mortals can figure out what will happen, how hard can it be for God?

[Fish Tank]

If determinism was so easily dismissed it wouldn't be a philosophical ideal.

There is no purpose of life. You are born then you die. What ever you do in the middle serves no purpose. What purpose does a dog serve? None other than to ensure the future of more dogs.

It isn't a mistake if it is already determined to happen. What you learn is also already determined. Free will isn't required to live and die.


You guys are saying determinism is impossible. No no. It's is one of the possibilities.

You cannot prove you have free will nor that all your decisions are decided for you. Philosophy is cruel like that.

Humans cannot predict the future. If a human could they'd be a bazillionaire. You'd know who could and who couldn't because they'd be winning the lottery every day.

[zeroguy]

Humans cannot predict the future. If a human could they'd be a bazillionaire. You'd know who could and who couldn't because they'd be winning the lottery every day.

I believe you have quite a shallow opinion of all humans.

[wigginboy]

Regardless of whether God created us or not, or even if he exists, we must look at this: we were ALL created with free will, and it is with this gift that we create good and evil. Just as Pandora was given a box containing all the good and evil of mankind, so have we, in reality, been given the gift of knowledge of good and evil. And just as Pandora opened that box and unleashed all the evils unto the world, so have we opened a box with which we release good and evil, and human interaction is the means by which these ideas are spread. Thus, through our interactions, and learning of both good and evil, we use our knowledge in ways that are pleasing to us. But, because of interaction, and the fact that everything we do is not done only to or for us, it affects others as well, our actions that might be pleasing to us create ill feelings in others. The main point of this is that we have been given two gifts, knowledge, and the ability to use knowledge, or free will, and it is how we use them that affects how others react.

[Rei]

There is no purpose of life. You are born then you die. What ever you do in the middle serves no purpose. What purpose does a dog serve? None other than to ensure the future of more dogs.

It isn't a mistake if it is already determined to happen. What you learn is also already determined. Free will isn't required to live and die.

I like your assumption that humans can find no reasons to live and that life is a mistake because death occurs. If there is no God, there can be no mistakes because there was no one to make them. If there is a God, then death can not be a mistake. Either way, life is not a mistake.

As for purpose, I think the example of "wyrd" fits well, here. The Anglo-Saxon world was a violent one where raiders may wipe out your entire tribe and your entire lineage would be wiped off the face of existance. This constant lack of knowledge of what would happen in the next instant and so many dangers from weather and enemies and such led to a notion something like fate, but that is a poor translation. It led to an acceptance that today, I might die. And that would be the way of things. But what I can do is attempt to make my name immortal by great deeds so that I will not be forgotten. They knew that they were born and they would die, or worse, be exiled if they commited a sufficient crime. The sparrow flew into the dining hall and out, and no one knows where-from nor where-to. However, they strove for immortality in stories, to never be forgotten, so no matter where the sparrow goes after it has left the dining hall, you will remain in its memory.

So yes, humans can find purpose, even when they know that they are at the mercies of their environment.

[Fish Tank]

I never said there weren't reasons to live. I said there is no purpose to life. And I never said life was a mistake because death occurs. Death is not a mistake for the reason I stated; it is inevitable. It's a way for new life to flourish.

Enjoying life is a reason to live. Getting married, having kids, buying a house are reasons to live.


A great deed is not a purpose of life. How can it be?. Only some people have a purpose? Sorry but you just don't have a purpose in life, you haven't accomplished anything great.

I have a realistic opinion of all humans.

We have only the knowledge that God allows us to have. How can we have an original thought if we were created?

[Rei]

...your train of thought is impossible.

And if you're holding out to have a thought that no one else has ever had before, may I recommend you watch Garden State? There is a great scene in there discussing moments of true originality.

[jotabe]

As a Christian, i don't believe God created us with a purpose. That would mean He created us for something... that somehow we really aren't free. I believe he created us out of love, so we could enjoy the fact of existing.