The Power of Prayer

[hive_king]

I've never understood this: God has a master plan on how everything is going to work and how everything is going to turn out. He has a master plan, and presumably a good one. However, if someone prays for intercession, which amounts to asking God nicely for a favor, He'll change his master plan (i.e. curing a disease.) This seems a bit contradictory to me. How does that all work?

[Dr. Mobius]

God appeases the whiners so they'll shut up and leave him alone.

[anonshadow]

Placebo effect.

[suminonA]

Or, the praying is part of the master plan ...

A.

[Eddie Pinz]

It doesn't mean that he changed his plan because he interceeded...maybe he has conditions set up...think of this...

If (prayer = true)
intercession = true
else
thebastarddies = true

hmm...don't know if that really works...but its just a thought...

[eriador]

Prayer is a form of enforced ("Have you said your prayers?" - Mom) acknowledgement of the divine being, which is an important element of brainwashing. Repetition is one of the most important parts of brainwashing.

That's my two cents. There's nobody listening, all that happens is that the pray-er cements the brainwashing in his/her own mind.

Please don't bug me about this. I like where this thread is going, and I don't want it f****** up, but I want to share. Thanks.

[wizzard]

I half agree with eriador here, with the exception that I believe God does exist, in which case the reinforcement or concious acknowledgement of Him is a good thing. I don't think God will actually change his mind because we pray. Prayer affects the person praying, not the person they're praying for.

[Rei]

I tend to believe something closer to what EP said. I don't see it as a set in stone master plan. Instead I suspect that it is a set beginning and generally known end (God wins, Satan loses, generally not a Pyrrhic victory), and there are any number of paths towards that end. A plan which God knows may very well be the combination of the fact that God has and continues to direct the course of history combined to Him being at all times, so he's already seen the show and knows how it ends. And since God made the framework in which history happens, He also made the plan for how it will end and I expect He has worked prayer into that plan. So if we pray for something, He may allow us to take a different route toward the end, whether that be more or less painful for us.

[Sibyl]

I've never understood this: God has a master plan on how everything is going to work and how everything is going to turn out. He has a master plan, and presumably a good one. However, if someone prays for intercession, which amounts to asking God nicely for a favor, He'll change his master plan (i.e. curing a disease.) This seems a bit contradictory to me. How does that all work?

This is what I have come to believe, after years of chewing and studying what other people say on this question (and praying, which occasionally results in "little miracles" (the laws of probability, while not violated, are manipulated)). I'm not saying "this is the way it is", but "this is the best I've been able to do so far" (I don't know the mind of God)

First, I believe that God is infinite (in the mathematical meaning of the term) and Eternal, and that no human is going to be able to understand the fullness of God's Mind, because we _can't_: our physical brains aren't big enough. I believe that God's mind is big enough to _invent_ the mathematical and physical structure of the basis of the Universe, and not only that, to _invent_ Time (therefore sequence) to set up His invention of the universe. And being that infinite, there's also enough of Him to pay attention to this particular minute fraction of His Creation that I fondly think of as myself.

I think that He already sees all of what, from our viewpoint, is going to happen, sort of like a human looking at a newspaper page containing a comic strip, from outside. To the character inside the strip, there's no knowing what's going to happen in the panel to the right, and he remembers what did happen in the panel to the left. But God can see it all at once. That is His Master Plan: which we humans collectively and individually helped Him "make".

I believe that His best gift to humans, including this one, is Free Will. We can thwart the wills of each other (for example, somebody else wills to shoot somebody else, and I can knock the gun out of his hand, but God won't {"won't" not "can't": I believe that He does play by His own rules}). I'm free to act, but I won't ever understand all the consequences of my actions. A butterfly flapping its wings in China might result in a hurricane in Brazil. But probably not.

I believe that every prayer must include the terms "Thy Will be done", an assent to aligning our own Wills with whatever God wants us to be. It's not magic, it's Communion with God, it _is_ aligning our own Wills, Freely, with that of God. God knows whether curing my bursitis (it did happen), or curing temporarily my night blindness so that I don't get myself killed in a car accident (it did happen) will change anything significant in the frame to the right of my part of the comic strip. I don't know. So if it doesn't impinge on His Perfect Will (the whole comic strip: He's the Artist), He just might fix my pain with a little pencil dot in the frame I happen to be in right now ("right now" from _my_ POV when I pray). Maybe it'll affect nothing at all in the frame to the right. Or maybe it'll result in my writing this post, and planting a seed of "God loves you" or "Prayer works" in some person who reads it (Testimony).

[Slim]

God is our Heavenly Father, and we are His children. Prayer is the means we have of communicating with Him. The purpose in asking for blessings in prayer is not to change the will of God -- He is already willing to give us blessings, but He won't give them to us until we ask for them.

Along with what Sibyl wrote, I also believe that prayer is about putting ourselves in line with God's will. If we are praying to change the will of God, we're missing the point.

[Fish Tank]

Seems to me that it's kind of crappy that your God decides who is happy and who isn't. Whose prayers get answered and whose don't.

I'd prefer a God who didn't answer prayers.


But of course in my view "answered prayers" are nothing more than coincidence. How many prayers of yours are actually answered? I would guess a very small margin for a very few people. And the majority never having a prayer answered.

After all I could ask my cat to help me get a new job, and if I got it; should I give him the credit?

[Rei]

I don't know about you, but I try not to let whether my prayers are answered favourably determine whether or not I am happy. As Slim said, that's not the point.

[Fish Tank]

So you pray to make you miserable?


People pray in order to make themselves happier. And if God answers only certain prayers; to me that is determining who is happy and who is not.

The point of prayer is to make people feel better. Thinking that there is always someone listening.

What is it that you pray for?

[LilBee91]

When God was formulating His master plan, He knew whether we would/wouldn't pray (one of the perks of omniscience). He also knew the consequences of giving us our requests or not. He doesn't change His plan because of a prayer, He included the prayers we would say in the plan.

[hive_king]

Wait. Sybil, are you saying God only answers prayers if they won't have a major effect?

[Sibyl]

Wait. Sybil, are you saying God only answers prayers if they won't have a major effect?

I'm saying that he answers prayers if they are in accordance with His Will, and if they will actually be blessings (e.g., a kid wants a new bicycle, but if he got it he might feel superior to his friends, and show them that he's "Holier than thou", or might get himself killed riding it on the street). We don't know the consequences of our own desires, but God does. You can't pray curses on people: that's not what prayer is about, either-- (or you can _ask_, but God won't _do_ it).

"Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, but nonetheless, not my will, but thy will be done"

[Sibyl]

Wait. Sybil, are you saying God only answers prayers if they won't have a major effect?

I'm saying that he answers prayers if they are in accordance with His Will, and if they will actually be blessings (e.g., a kid wants a new bicycle, but if he got it he might feel superior to his friends, and show them that he's "Holier than thou", or might get himself killed riding it on the street). We don't know the consequences of our own desires, but God does. You can't pray curses on people: that's not what prayer is about, either-- (or you can _ask_, but God won't _do_ it).

"Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, but nonetheless, not my will, but thy will be done"

I should have taken it a little farther: He _always_ answers, but often the answer is "no", "wait", or even "maybe".

He'll also usually explain, if a goodly portion of your prayer time is given to listening as well as talking. But some of us are deafer than others, or don't _want_ to listen.

[Sibyl]

Then "getting stuff" or "miracles" or complaining or "making yourself happy" are not the only reasons for praying. Study, Bible reading, meditation, are also forms of prayer, as well as the classic forms, Praise, Adoration, Petition, Intercession, Contemplation, Contrition, Confession, Thanksgiving...
Some of those are overlapping, or different names for approximately the same thing.

You pray to bring your own Free Will into alignment with the Will of God, what and whom God created you as an individual to be. This may or may not make you "happy", but it will probably make you feel good or better. I doubt that Jesus felt very "good" or "happy" while He was on the cross, though.

You have your own Free Will, all right, but if you exercise it to place you 180º from God's Will, you'll be in Sin and also probably not very happy. Sin is that which separates us from God, and we can use our own wills to that purpose.

[hive_king]

Oh, i totally understand other types of prayer, like asking for inner strength or thanking god for what you do have. I'm mostly focusin on intercessory prayer.

[Fish Tank]

Isn't "thanking god for what you have" simply "thanking god for what you have"?

If you look at "praying" as any "communication" with God then that's different.


But you keep saying that he "answers prayers if they are in accordance with His Will".

Answering implies an asking. And thanking god for what you have is not a question.

[Eaquae Legit]

I just figure he likes to hear from me once in a while. It's a relational kind of thing. If I never talk to my friend, that's pretty sad.

And I like to listen, too. There's a stillness and a silence to it.

Technically, intercessory prayer is prayer for the sake of someone other than yourself. Petitionary prayer is prayer on your own behalf. Not that that makes much difference on the main point here, but still.

While we're at it, let's not forget the story of Abraham and Sodom. Abraham bargained with God for the fate of the city.

[hive_king]

Why is it that God talked to people back then but not now. At least not in the direct, obvious way.

[Eaquae Legit]

Maybe he expects us to be better listeners?

Maybe because when someone says Go talked to him, we automatically discount him or her as crazy.

[hive_king]

Thats because we havne't had anyone talking to God who didn't prove themselves crazy anyways for about two thousand years. If it happened even moderately often, people would take it a lot more seriously.

[VelvetElvis]

because now we have his word here with us in the form of the bible

[Sibyl]

Thats because we havne't had anyone talking to God who didn't prove themselves crazy anyways for about two thousand years. If it happened even moderately often, people would take it a lot more seriously.

Lots of very sane people talk to God all the time, and nobody considers it crazy: it's called "prayer". It's just when God replies that _some_ consider it crazy, because those "some" are the ones who believe that God doesn't exist, or doesn't ever answer. But more people than you might think get discernable answers, if not audible, and don't admit it to other people much, and especially not to people who'd think they were crazy.

[neo-dragon]

Misconception: God not giving you what you asked for when you want it means that your prayer went unanswered.

The way I see it, God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is "yes", sometimes it's "no", and sometimes it's "not yet"... But it's always the answer that is best for us.

So what do we gain by asking? Perhaps spiritual strength for acknowledging a greater power? And I don't mean that it comes as a reward, but rather as a consequence. Maybe that extra spiritual strength shifts the odds in our favour just a little bit. Or maybe it's really just as simple as God lifts the burdens of the faithful as much as is possible for our own greater good, which is not always as much as we'd like, but he knows what's best for us better than we do.

[Fish Tank]

So when I ask my cat for a new car and he doesn't say yes he is saying no? No doubt for my greater good, eh?

[neo-dragon]

You're proposing that your cat possesses the powers and foresight of God?

[Fish Tank]

I'm suggesting that no answer does not mean "no" but rather that no one is listening.

[neo-dragon]

Well in that case, don't act like we can make presumptions about the nature of God based on the actions (or rather, inactions) of your cat.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's a very nice cat, but it's hardly comparable to the Almighty!

[Rei]

I'm suggesting that no answer does not mean "no" but rather that no one is listening.

So what if the answer is "yes"? You can not argue the hearing of a yes, although you may argue its source. Either way, I have heard "yes" before, so that rules out your suggestion that no-one is listening.

[hive_king]

Sybil, there's a big difference between "prayer" and, oh lets say "burning bush" and "road to damascus."

[Firegirl]

Sybil, there's a big difference between "prayer" and, oh lets say "burning bush" and "road to damascus."

Which points to the major problem most people don't hear or see God personified or in a tangible form, sure they get an idea of what God wants them to do, it's not the same. God doesn't quite have the same pizzaz as the fire and brimstone and burning bush days.

[Fish Tank]

I'm suggesting that no answer does not mean "no" but rather that no one is listening.

So what if the answer is "yes"? You can not argue the hearing of a yes, although you may argue its source. Either way, I have heard "yes" before, so that rules out your suggestion that no-one is listening.

I have heard "yes" from my cat. Doesn't mean that's what he said.