Spanking - For or against?

[eriador]

That's just the mandatory reporting bit. You should quote the definition of the bit you bolded, which must be in the lawbooks somewhere. This proves nothing about what degree of abuse is considered "abuse".

[anonshadow]

Christ, can you read?

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsh ... tiscan.cfm

And, under the minimum standards under federal law:

Physical abuse is physical injury (ranging from minor bruises to severe fractures or death) as a result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, shaking, throwing, stabbing, choking, hitting (with a hand, stick, strap, or other object), burning, or otherwise harming a child. Such injury is considered abuse regardless of whether the caretaker intended to hurt the child.

[AnthonyByakko]

Yes, he can - but can you understand your own post?

"Physical abuse is physical INJURY (ranging from minor bruises to...) as a RESULT of ...hitting (with a hand, stick, strap, or other object)"

Spanking when done properly (or for that matter, a lot of other striking or hitting) will not leave bruises, and thus, from the information you presented, does not constitute an "injury", and therefore does not constitute "abuse."

[anonshadow]

I know that--we weren't talking about spanking. I was referring to something luminousnerd said.

I'm not trying to drum up sympathy here, just saying it for my argument's sake. That and it feels pretty good to put into words, I've never done so before.

But anyway the Utah law says they got to break your bones before it is abuse.

Which isn't true. I'm not trying to make the case that spanking is necessarily abuse, because I don't believe that.

[AnthonyByakko]

Well that's just stupid.

[Matty]

Just wondering what the general consensus is.

(Matty as The Tod)

I'm for it! *Hi Five*

[Andorbal]

Scolding carries no weight if the threat of a spanking isn't there.

My dad used a belt on one of my siblings once and he never used it again. But now we knew that it was possibility, so anytime my siblings or I got yelled at, we knew that it could come out. As we got older, we started to realize that he wasn't going to actually use it again, so we started paying less attention to the threat.

So my opinion is that spanking a kid every now and again when they deserve it (not when they spill their drink or as another poster said, when they interrupt your soaps!) is probably a good thing. I wouldn't go so far as a belt, but a quick smack to the butt won't really hurt a kid.

The other thing, though, is that you've got to follow through if you threaten it and the kid still refuses to obey. I know people that threaten, threaten, threaten, but the kids just do what they want because they know the threats are idle.

Andorbal.

[anonshadow]

I've never been spanked, and scolding carries enormous weight for me. I'd rather be hit than have someone scold me when I seriously screwed up.

Not all kids need to be spanked, even if they are occasionally bratty. In fact, I would probably say that many kids don't need it.

[hive_king]

Now scolding only works on some kids though. My mom would scold me, and I'd take it to heart, and try to be better behaved. My little sister could be scolded for days on end and she wouldn't care. The only thing worse than the scolding was the ever-present guilt trip.

[mr_thebrain]

I've never been spanked

you don't know what you're missing out on...

*raises eyebrow in thought*


nevermind. i'm married.

[wizzard]

I'm not against spanking, usually as a last resort though. I am against blanket statements like "spanking is always wrong for all children". If you want to discipline your children, then you should know your children. Some kids really will only respond to physical pain, while others will be emotionally damaged by it.

I was spanked as a kid, though only rarely. Usually I was sent to my room for an hour or 2. I think the most effective thing my parents did was have a very definite scale of punishments. If we did something mildly wrong, we had to sit on the stairs for 15 minutes, and if we got spanked, we knew that it meant we had done something really wrong.

[RoyalMother]

I spanked my children. Those of you who know my eldest may judge for yourself how it effects the (semi)adult.

While the offspring may deny it, I don't recall spanking often. The 'look' was generally more effective. Punishment, like the nude body is often more effective if most of it is left to imagination.

<I am sure that if both children were polled they would say I should have spanked the other more>

If you do not spank in anger, you do not teach that violence is acceptable.

[luminousnerd]

for those of you who were spanked as children, and refuse to do it to your own future children. lemme pose to you these questions:

do you hate who you are? are you screwed up solely due to the spankings of your youth? do you hate your parents for having spanked you when you were bad? did you learn to not be bad?

the way i figure things, perhaps my parents didn't raise me perfectly. but i turned out perfectly. so for me, the ends justify the means... *shrug*

besides, most people who are screwed up don't know that they're screwed up.

There are a whole lot of people who hate me on these forums, and in real life. And I hate a lot of the things I do/say. I am a generally angry person. I have no respect for my parents, and I hate them. I don't think I'm the best example to support your claims. I AM still 16 though, so the process is still sort of going on I guess. I really, really can't see myself ever gaining back respect for my parents though.

I think spanking a child should only be done if they just aren't getting the idea that doing something is wrong. After yelling and time outs don't work, spank em.

Above 10 years old, though, butt spanking isn't exactly viable and in some places is considered abuse (or even sexual abuse if you pull the pants down like some parents do).

I think in most cases it is required because kids who are pampered usually turn out to be snobby brats. In timeout, it teaches kids to be patient as well.

I completely agree, but I think there are other ways of "not pampering" kids than spanking them.

I'm not trying to drum up sympathy here, just saying it for my argument's sake. That and it feels pretty good to put into words, I've never done so before.

But anyway the Utah law says they got to break your bones before it is abuse.

Just throwing it out there.

And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the Utah laws, but I'd have to check.

How would you check something like that? All I know is what kids who are in foster homes and go to my school have told me.

Also, from what they tell me, foster care really really sucks. I've got only two years left....and they are generally not abusive except when they get angry...I can deal with it, obviously I have, and I think there are a lot worse cases out there for people to be worrying about.

I don't think that you need to break bones in Utah. I'd really like to know where you heard that.

Only from what people told me. But it doesn't change anything really, I've got Internet, two nice computers, a job, my own money, a great school...is that an abused kid?

[anonshadow]

An abused kid is a kid who is being abused. Period. Abuse doesn't stop being abuse if you have computers, a job, and money. It's really, really silly to say, "well, it's not abuse if I have nice things." That's bull.

As to how she would look into it--

Legislation. Laws are laws because there was legislation passed. If you read the laws, you know what they say. And, you know--what the law is.

As far as people hating you--I think you're giving yourself too much credit, at least as far as PWeb goes. I suspect that most people don't care enough to hate you. The most you probably get from anyone is briefly annoyed.

[Sibyl]

Hey, Lumi, I like you!

[VelvetElvis]

Mother, Youngest wasn't old enough to remember Eldest ever being spanked, since it wasn't a common occurence. Eldest also does not think that Youngest should have been spanked more.


I'm for spanking. I also believe that spanking, like anything, becomes ineffected if overused.

[Firegirl]

Aside from spanking being a pain in the rear, it probably depends on both the parent and the child for how effective as a learning process it really it. Individual children have different tolerance levels, and parents, well let's just say some are far better than others in terms of understanding and kindness. If I ever have kids, I probably won't use physical punishments like spanking, as I know it is too easy for a person to go overboard leave the child emotionally scarred for life.

[luminousnerd]

Hey, Lumi, I like you!

Thanks heh

[hive_king]

There are a whole lot of people who hate me on these forums,

Stop flattering yourself. I doubt anyone on this board hates you. Some of us might find you a big annoying and aggrivating at times, but stop taking it so personally.

[eriador]

Yeah, hate is kinda wasted on online forums.

[Firegirl]

I am suprised that no one has cited that Biblical quotation of Spare the rod and spoil the child. I believe in punishment of children as an alternative to incentives sometimes, but never excessive use of corporal punishment like spanking. I don't believe that using a rod, belt or any sort of blunt object is beneficial to the child as ultimately punishment, behavioral modification, or positive reinforcement should benefit the child not the adult parent later in life.

[Firegirl]

But the spare the rod, spoil the child quote is excessive and often misinterpreted, so it should not be trusted as the end-all be-all for modifying children's behavior as that is the intention of punishment when a child does something wrong.

[Qing_Jao]

In fact, that verse is referring to discipline period, not necessarily corporal punishment. The "rod" was more used to direct the sheep than to whack em in the head, or whatever. "Thy rod and thy staff" = discipline and comfort.
At least in my humble opinion.

I don't think that it's abuse done properly. Just in my limited experience, it's really, really hard to do properly.
SARA

[wizzard]

In fact, that verse is referring to discipline period, not necessarily corporal punishment. The "rod" was more used to direct the sheep than to whack em in the head, or whatever. "Thy rod and thy staff" = discipline and comfort.
At least in my humble opinion.

I don't think that it's abuse done properly. Just in my limited experience, it's really, really hard to do properly.
SARA

I'm not sure that's really backed up by the Hebrew. The word used in this verse (Prov. 13:24) is "shavat", which is often used specifically in reference to beating or hitting (although not always). Etymologically, it even seems to come from a verb that means "to smite".

On the other hand, the same Hebrew word is used in Psalm 23, "thy rod and thy staff"

[Firegirl]

I just want to note that a state senator from California has introduced a bill that would make spanking illegal. Interesting development and potentially legally damaging to parents good and bad.

Here is the link to the article.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070120/ap_ ... ing_bill_4

[vendor]

I know many here will think my views extreme. Maybe I worked in schools too long. I grew up when parents signed those forms allowing teachers to smack their kids around. When you were sent to the principals office, you weren't talked to. You were paddled and you deserved it. It's a mistake that those forms don't exist anymore.

I believe that children, for the most part, are too comfortable. They know they have the legal upperhand and they challenge adults to try and stop them. Most kids don't willingly submit to authority gracefully. In my school district, it's against the law to hold a child by the hand to lead them somewhere. Against the law to embarrass or even obstruct their way. The children have free reign and they know it. They abuse it. They flaunt it. The adults are (and should not have to be) afraid of the children. They have escaped accountablility. They are no longer responsible for their own actions. A child can accuse any adult of a malicious act just to show they have the power.

The XBox generation needs a reality check. Children need fear. I'm not talking bleeding ulcer fear, just fear of the consequences of their actions.
If you are having trouble with your kids, send them over. I'll spank them for you. Maybe you'll feel less guilty then.

edit: to expound upon school memories

[vendor]

http://www.nospank.net/n-h21.htm
you were pretty much right Lumi.

[pooka]

I've been part of a "was it discipline or abuse spanking" inquiry in Utah, and spanking is not automatically considered abuse.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

Whether spanking is appropriate or not depends more on the situation than the child. The child is obviously part of the situation, but from my point of view there are only a few really different situtations when it comes to disciplining a child. First and foremost, however, is a parent't duty to ensure that a child understands the rules they are subject to, and why they are subject to them. Now, often in early childhood, that last part is difficult, and spanking, done not violently, but firmly enough to get the point across is the most viable method of discipline. In examples,

In earliest childhood, about the time the child is first out of your supervision or beginning to walk, talk and explore their world, rules need to be clearly set down. And when I say clearly, I mean clearly to the child, not to you. Have the child repeat back and try to figure out on their own why different rules exist so that it's clear in their mind.

When the time comes that a child breaks a rule, as they inevitably will, it's your job as a parent to see if the child understood what they were doing, and if they did and broke the rule anyway, for whatever reason, it's time for a spanking.

If the child didn't understand a rule, lesser forms of punishment should be employed, these need to be chosen by the parent, depending on the child.

Perhaps most important, I feel, however, is that a child not be rewarded for doing what is expected of them, but at the same time, your expectations musn't be too high. For me as a child, I was always scolded for bringing home anything less than straight A's, which was frustrating and confusing since I saw that for the most part I was outperforming my classmates, and their performances were being rewarded at home.

I don't mean to sound like any sort of braggart, and if you saw how sorely in disarry my elementary school was you'd know that I'm really not bragging, but for me, coasting by in elementary school with top marks was easy, so I never really learned to stretch out beyond what was expected. I know I sould like I'm blaming my parents, but it's very confusing for a child to be praised in school and scolded at home for the same behavior.

The thing is that kids musn't be overly encouraged for doing what should be natural, no matter what level that might be, and you can only determine what's natural for a child by being involved with them. No one said parenting was easy, but far too often parents forget just how much kids derive from them.

Now, there were times my father got physical out of anger, but for reasons I'm not going to discuss, I've forgiven him of that. But, I've also seen my younger brother who is scolded constantly for not measuring up to what my father expects and as a result has given up all hope and drive, and my youngest brother who my father has never spanked, and never heavily scolded, and as a result does whatever he wants, and then shirks, dodges and shifts blame when things come back to him. My mother adds to the mix by being one to heavily threaten but never follow through, which carries over to her tendency to break promises, destroying the positive reinforcement idea, while still scolding when we don't live up to her expectations.

I've been at college a little more than a year now, and I'm back home for the summer, and things are much more obvious to me than they ever were before, even though I'm still wrestling with it, and despite everything I've listed, I think my parents did an alright job of raising me.

I think that it's mainly a loss of perspective, and an inability to see things through the child's eyes that causes most parents to go astray, no matter how convinced of their discipline methods they are. Hell, when I become a parent, I might just throw all this away, but for now, that's my long ass two cents.

[BonitoDeMadrid]

XDD, when I read the title of the topic I thought you meant a different type of spanking, namely- BEFORE the child is made...XD

Anyway, I'm highly against. I was spanked once in my childhood; I cannot remember if it hurt, but it scarred me (even though very slightly, it did) for life. I wouldn't want to do this to my kids, because they would do it to their kids, and the circle goes on and on...

Besides, if I love my kids, there're much better ways to educate them- words teach better than "physical touch"...

(is it OK if I BUMP this post? it's on the front page, but the last post in it was more than a month ago)

[CandyMoon]

I say yes.

I was spanked many times as a child, but I was impossible, and words NEVER got through to me. And it was almost never hard.

I say you should spank your child, but don't do it hard [or excessively], and never anywhere but the hand/wrist or the butt. It should be more just of a shocker thing, thats the way it was for me. And it worked wonders.

[London]

It depends on the child. If they will be subdued (healthily) by spanking, then yes, by all means, do it. But for a child like I was, strong willed and stubborn, dont do it, because all it is is pain (with no gain.)

[Petra_Arkanian]

I am pretty much against any spanking. And yes, you guys have all brought up times when it's "alright" - when you aren't angry, as a last resort, whatever. But realistically, it won't be people like us hitting our kids. It will usually be people hitting kids that shouldn't, in ways that are just...wrong.

I don't agree with vendor. I'm not spewing my age, but I'll say this - children aren't fluanting the authority they have over adults. Not do so-called adults need authority. Authority should be based on who deserves it, not age. As OSC established, "age has no correlation to wisdom." To use the politically correct term for myself, I would be 'gifted' and I know I deserve authority more than some adults that have it.

I am "for" spanking your children if you do it in the aforementioned way - as a shock not intended to actually cause pain, when you aren't angry, as a last resort.

I was only ever hit a few times - all by my abusive father, and for (and I'm telling this honestly) doing nothing at all. It's people like that we need to stop from hitting kids. People like that are the cause of the extreme laws to protect children - and ya know what? The usually aren't protected.

The effective method my mother used: She'd pour a glass of water over my head, or something strange like that. Every single time it worked. Why? I have no idea. But I know it was a lot more effective than hitting me.

Hypothetical situation:
Kid hits kid. Parent hits first kid, for hitting his brother. How can you respect an adult that's doing something they're told you not to? Are hyprocrites respectable now?

On the hypocrite subject, consider this: Spanking is an act of violence. No matter how you cut it, you are making contact in a violent way to deter behaviour by associating it with pain. Therefore you are teaching these children they can deter behaviour they find unpleasant in other people, by using violence.

To throw a statistic out there: 1/6 teenagers report knowing a friend in an abusive relationship that hasn't reported it. Hm....I wonder where those violent ideas come from?

Too many parents take this out of context - we might make the right descisions, but I know far too many people that won't.

[CaseyJones]

I am against spanking, or any other kind of abuse in the form of punishment. I don't think that it is right to make a child fear you so they'll obey. A child should be rewarded with praise for doing good, and taught that good can yield more rewards than just praise, such as trust. Of course a child should be punished for doing wrong, not with abuse, but with the realization of the errors of their ways, and shown ways to rectify the situation.

[Peterlover14]

As most of you do, I feel that whether spanking is necessary depends on the child. If you have a child that just does not understand what people are telling him/her constantly, maybe a more extreme punishment like spanking or being sent to their room WITHOUT tv or even taking away things like time on the computer is the correct way to get it through their skull that whatever they are doing is not right. If the child is more calmer and is usually better than lectures don't hurt. I know I'm not the only one who hates to listen to lectures and be interrogated by their parents. So just the consequences of doing bad things makes some kids stop. It depends on what effects them the most. If you send your kid to the corner but they don't stop acting out, why the hell would you keep sending them to the corner? I'm only fourteen and I don't plan on having kids because they drive me crazy, but as far as punishment goes maybe some should take it from the perspective of people who weren't last punished 15 years ago. That can change a persons opinion.