What's the point of organised religion?

[Jebus]

Apart from doing lots of great charity work and yadda yadda yadda, what's the point of them and why do the religious people on the board feel the need to associate themselves with their religion?

[Eaquae Legit]

Because I believe humans are communal animals. I also believe that there's not one Ultimate Truth for me, and another for you. If there's just one Ultimate Truth, it makes sense that those who believe it congregate. Oh, and because I learn from reading and talking and discussing, as most people have thought about different things than I have. Also, when I face a challenge in my lifestyle, it is good to have people to support me.

[Sibyl]

Amen to EL, and also because the Church is the Body of Christ, organized to help all His cells along the way, and because we are fed by His Body and Blood. The organization is internal as well as external, the external part being to feed and clothe and bring in all God's children who are _not_ (yet) part of the Body.

[Jebus]

Huh, I thought I put this in the other place, move please.

[Eaquae Legit]

Thought so. Yoink!

[Andorbal]

From who's point of view are we talking about here?

My really cynical view is that religion is a tool for anyone who can wield it. So the heads use it for power of some kind, zealots use it as justification of any cause they might think of, etc. I mean, did the pharaohs really think they were god and human, or did they just like having the power. Did bishops in the middle ages really believe that god wanted people to pay money for their sins?

Andorbal.

[Jebus]

I also believe that there's not one Ultimate Truth for me, and another for you. If there's just one Ultimate Truth, it makes sense that those who believe it congregate.

So I'm assuming you came to Catholicism (or stayed with it) by reading the church's interpretations and beliefs and finding that those made the most sense to you, but do all your beliefs fall in line with those of the church? And what would you do if you found that no religion felt like the one to you?

[Firegirl]

Organized Religion functions in many different ways, strangely enough it gives many people the semblance of actually having a purpose in life. Somehow that sense of purpose ( in this instance, I am referring to the followers of organized religions, not those in power, who are a different matter entirely) is connected to a cosmic plan that leads people to sometimes thinking that there is something better out there. The something better out there is merely a desperate plea that means that the follower really doesn't know what they are doing with their life and think they need guidance in the long run of life.
Now those in power in organized religions use organized religions for other purposes, the first use is obvious for power and control of the followers, second it functions to support those who have delusions of being descended from this or that deity, third for many in power it's a good source of income.

[zeroguy]

Apart from doing lots of great charity work and yadda yadda yadda, what's the point of them and why do the religious people on the board feel the need to associate themselves with their religion?

It's a lot quicker when asked "what religion are you/what do you believe in" to answer "Christian" than to have to recite the whole Bible. It's also easier to fill in the little circle on surveys than to write an essay.

It's all for bureaucratic efficiency, you see.

[AnthonyByakko]

Humans as communal animals?

"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by Homo Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history."

[Rei]

Firegirl,

Please have the respect to not assume that, because people believe in something you do not, they are deluded, or pathetic, or whatever else you think of the followers of religions. And further, please do not assume that the heads and teachers of religions are power hungry people who seek to control the masses. Not only are both points generally quite erroneous, it is very offensive. Please do a little more research into religions before making such claims, because you will find that they are nowhere near as valid as you think.

[AnthonyByakko]

Rei,

Please have the respect not to assume that, because someone generalises what "many" people in a given organisation might do, that they consider all members of that organisation to be deluded, pathetic, or whatever else you you think of non-followers of religions. And further, please do not assume that the heads and teachers of religions are not power hungry people who seek to control the masses. Not only is it possible that both points can be quite erroneous, it is very offensive. Please do a little more research into religions before making such claims, because you will find that they are nowhere near as valid as you think.

[Fish Tank]

Why do people congregate together in order to celebrate their faith? Same reason why there is a forum dedicated to the Enderverse.

[AnthonyByakko]

That's a valid point, FT; but how many Christians go to church simply because it's expected of them? Because they would not only look bad in the eyes of other people, but perceivedly in the eyes of God? Many of the people I knew of in the churches I went to (though admittedly, they were all Baptist, and not exactly the fun-loving type) went because they thought they had to, not to enjoy the company of other like-minded people and "celebrate" their faith.

[jotabe]

Obviously, they are not Christians, A_B.

[AnthonyByakko]

That's a pretty bold statement, Jota. I mean, I can understand their stance - the churches I was in didn't exactly foster a communal spirit of faith and celebration. Is it their own fault that they don't want (but feel they HAVE) to go to a place that wants to talk about fire and brimstone and make you feel like a bad person?

[jotabe]

Well, to be honest, i have never been to a Baptist celebration.
You don't get to hear about fire and brimstone (nor crying and gnashing of teeth) over here.
*recalling*
Yeah, i don't remember ever hearing a priest talking about either thing during the homily (homily is when the priest explains the scripture that has just been read, and how it is applied to our lives).

[AnthonyByakko]

Celebration? Uh... what's that?

[jotabe]

uh... negative reinforcement?

*Popsichology strikes back*

[AnthonyByakko]

Trust me, I know what negative reinforcement is.

[Sibyl]

Well, to be honest, i have never been to a Baptist celebration.
You don't get to hear about fire and brimstone (nor crying and gnashing of teeth) over here.
*recalling*
Yeah, i don't remember ever hearing a priest talking about either thing during the homily (homily is when the priest explains the scripture that has just been read, and how it is applied to our lives).

"homily" (catholic)="sermon"(Baptist)

"Celebration of the Mass" (catholic)="preparation of Communion" (Baptist)

Jotabe, where is "over here"? I've forgotten. Spain?

But for European Catholic Fire And Brimstone, see
http://catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/stj18004.htm
Admittedly, it's about Purgatory more than Hell, and I don't like it, nor do I believe it, but it is pretty strong.

[jotabe]

Yes, over here is Spain
Lol i know you can find European Catholic fire and brimestone... i mean, nowadays. After Vatican Council II, the practices in homilies changed quite a bit, apparently (from what i am told). Well, every now and then you can find old-school priests, but there aren't too many.

[eriador]

I've been over this before, and got warned for it, but I'm going to say it again, in a slightly different way:


Organized religion is meant to give it's leaders power, pure and simple. It's kept in power

because it's expected of [the people]? Because they would not only look bad in the eyes of other people, but perceivedly in the eyes of God?

It's also kept in power by a campaign of what essentially is brainwashing, where children are trained to follow without questioning and pass on the message.

Why do religions fight eachother? Sure, the people actually doing the fighting think it has to do with pleasing God in some way, but it's all about power. Just look at the vatican. I would say that in some ways, this country (the world's second-smallest [after Sealand]) is one of the most powerful. Why, you ask? Because of organized religion, that uses what amounts to brainwashing to take power away from the common people.

Call it a conspiracy theory all you want, but it's the first answer that seems to work out.

[Sibyl]

Humans as communal animals?

"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by Homo Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history."

Anthony, while you did make clear that that is a quotation, by the q-marks, you really should have the decency to attribute that to Robert Heinlein. While he knew the Bible forward and backward, and was a keen observer of human nature, he was also in reaction against a childhood in a Bible-thumping, Fire-and-Brimstone church. And yet, he _did_ retain some basic Christian spiritual outlook. I can't recommend "Stranger in a Strange Land" more highly, as an allegory/retelling of Christ--but it can be dangerous for hormonal adolescents/post-adolescents in rebellion against Christianity itself: it has a tendency to cause conversion to a non-existent religion in those who don't read more deeply. I know: it happened to me! ;^) Took me _years_ to realize that the Martian language and the Martians don't _exist_!

[Sibyl]

I've been over this before, and got warned for it, but I'm going to say it again, in a slightly different way:


Organized religion is meant to give it's leaders power, pure and simple. It's kept in power

because it's expected of [the people]? Because they would not only look bad in the eyes of other people, but perceivedly in the eyes of God?

It's also kept in power by a campaign of what essentially is brainwashing, where children are trained to follow without questioning and pass on the message.

"Brainwashing" is the _changing_ of one's worldview by torture techniques, over time.

Christian Education is education pure and simple, and don't worry about teaching children to follow without questioning, it doesn't work. They'll question _everything_, including the good will and love of their own parents, when the hormones hit.

[hive_king]

Not true that brain washing is done merely through torture. Brain washing can be done without the person even knowing, like the moonies. Brain washing is where the person is constantly bombarded with information and being told what is real so that they lose their own sense of reality control and free thought.

[Slim]

God's House is a house of order. And what better way to get the message to the people than a organization? (in a manner that doesn't remove ability to have faith.)

What I belive is that when I am taught something, I should pray about it and the Spirit will confirm it when it is true. Even back when I was trying to find out if Jesus really was the Savior, or just a nice story, I had to just try it out myself, and to listen to my feelings.

[eriador]

don't worry about teaching children to follow without questioning, it doesn't work. They'll question _everything_, including the good will and love of their own parents, when the hormones hit.

Yeah, great argument, because we all know that every single person acts in the exact same way as they mature.

Plus the brainwashing does work. Why else would people believe in something for which the evidence amounts to "I told you so"? You might say that it could be proved by some sort of personal dialogue with the holy, but that is most likely a direct result of brainwashing, that gives the subject a false sense of the "holy". I know that I, having recieved no religious instruction in my youth, have never had any sense of a divine being. I would say that in this extremely informal "experiment" that the control group (me) showed no religious feelings, while the test group, who recieved religious instruction, experience religious beliefs. This leads me to believe that the belief is caused by the instruction, not the other way 'round.

P.S. Slim: in your sig. it should say "it's" not "its" which is the possesive form.

[Eaquae Legit]

eriador, what makes your personal negating evidence any more valid than my personal confirming evidence? Why is it possible that I have been brainwashed into believing in the numinous and you not into unbelief? I'd be more willing to lend any credence to your views if you'd stop saying that your subjective experience is more valid than my subjective experience.

As to brainwashing, aside from extreme cases, a religious upbringing is not at all comparable. A conscious, adult choice based on experience, study, and testing cannot be attributed to brainwashing. Actual brainwashing is an extreme, intense thing.

***

Organized religion is meant to give it's leaders power, pure and simple. It's kept in power

because it's expected of [the people]? Because they would not only look bad in the eyes of other people, but perceivedly in the eyes of God?

It's also kept in power by a campaign of what essentially is brainwashing, where children are trained to follow without questioning and pass on the message.

Why do religions fight eachother? Sure, the people actually doing the fighting think it has to do with pleasing God in some way, but it's all about power. Just look at the vatican. I would say that in some ways, this country (the world's second-smallest [after Sealand]) is one of the most powerful. Why, you ask? Because of organized religion, that uses what amounts to brainwashing to take power away from the common people.

Call it a conspiracy theory all you want, but it's the first answer that seems to work out.

Yeah, it's pretty much a conspiracy theory, especially because it doesn't really work out at all. In specific cases? Sure there have been plenty of examples of religion being used for power. The fact that such cases are nearly invariably regarded as gross corruptions of religion presents a problem.

Not to mention that you are assigning a negative motive to every person who has led any religious group at any time in history. That's a heck of a lot of people with ill intent, and they seem oddly monolithic in their motives.

The simple fact is that your conspiracy theory (and you did say I could call it that all I wanted ) doesn't hold up to any sort of critical, historical scrutiny. And it's not worth my time to try to convince you otherwise, because you'll just dismiss me as being brainwashed, or accuse me of using my education against you.

So I won't. I've been posting in here less and less of late because I'm tired of wasting my breath and wasting my time. The ignorant, unhistorical, and downright rude sentiments I see from so many people have really soured this place I used to love. I've had one too many whiffs of juvenile anti-religion angst.

So expect to see EL-the-Poster less for the time being. EL-the-Mod is going to be very present still, and far less tolerant of rudeness than she has been.

[Eaquae Legit]

I also believe that there's not one Ultimate Truth for me, and another for you. If there's just one Ultimate Truth, it makes sense that those who believe it congregate.

So I'm assuming you came to Catholicism (or stayed with it) by reading the church's interpretations and beliefs and finding that those made the most sense to you, but do all your beliefs fall in line with those of the church? And what would you do if you found that no religion felt like the one to you?

Forgot that I'd meant to reply to this long ago but got busy. So I figure I owe it to Jeebs to answer him.

Not all of my beliefs fall in line with the Catholic Church. There are a few things I wish would be officially changed, and a few things I wish would finish being changed quicker. There are some things where I think the Church hasn't quite caught up to modern science/historiography, and that it needs to take them into account in its teaching (that is, not necessarily change the teaching, but offer better explanations and fuller understanding).

But by far and away I find that authentic Catholic teaching - and it's important to note the "authentic" qualifier in my sentence - is the best explainer of life, the universe, and everything. At least according to everything I've experienced or heard of in my life. I don't think the Catholic Church is 100% perfect or has everything worked out entirely, but I think it's the closest of the lot.

As to what I would do? I honestly don't know, since I haven't had that problem yet. I suppose I'd spend a lot of time looking very intently at all the religions I'd touched before, and try to see if it wasn't simply misunderstanding on my part. If that didn't help, and I still really felt alone, I don't know. Not much of an answer, I know, but I'm not very imaginative today.

[eriador]

As to brainwashing, aside from extreme cases, a religious upbringing is not at all comparable. A conscious, adult choice based on experience, study, and testing cannot be attributed to brainwashing. Actual brainwashing is an extreme, intense thing.

I think that the intensive, non-stop immersion in religion that many children experience may not be extremely intense, but is still voluminous enough to constitute brainwashing.

The simple fact is that your conspiracy theory (and you did say I could call it that all I wanted ) doesn't hold up to any sort of critical, historical scrutiny. And it's not worth my time to try to convince you otherwise, because you'll just dismiss me as being brainwashed, or accuse me of using my education against you.

Give me some historical evidence, because that would most likely be free of the "pervasive influence of church mind control" (;-)). "Critical, historical scrutiny" doesn't mean much without evidence. If you were to provide such a thing, I would be more than happy to reconsider my opinions and talk about it.

So I won't. I've been posting in here less and less of late because I'm tired of wasting my breath and wasting my time. The ignorant, unhistorical, and downright rude sentiments I see from so many people have really soured this place I used to love. I've had one too many whiffs of juvenile anti-religion angst.

So expect to see EL-the-Poster less for the time being. EL-the-Mod is going to be very present still, and far less tolerant of rudeness than she has been.

If "wasting your breath" means "having propaganda fall on deaf ears" then I'm sorry. I know that much of what I say counts as that, so don't get angry, I know that much of what I say is the same sort of thing. However, I don't think that it's a waste. As somebody said, all teens question their beliefs, and that's what I'm doing here. I think that this place is valuable, and I learn just as much about myself as I do about others when I post here. So, I would like to request that you are careful about what you chose to censure. If I'm being "ignorant" or "unhistorical" (is that a word?) please correct me. As to rudeness or "juvenile anti-religion angst" please tell me why what I said was rude and maybe I'll learn something. I know that many of my beliefs are inflammatory, but keep in mind that I find the insistence in the belief of God and the infallibility of scripture mildly insulting as well, and those sentiments are thrown around more often than I push my beliefs. I try my best to understand that there's not much I can do to change the fact that my beliefs are very incompatible with those of others. I just hope that you do the same.

I'm sorry that you no longer find this place as alluring as it used to be, but I must say that I think it will be poorer without you. I would be happy to do my best to improve the tone, and I hope that one day you might change your mind.

[anonshadow]

As to brainwashing, aside from extreme cases, a religious upbringing is not at all comparable. A conscious, adult choice based on experience, study, and testing cannot be attributed to brainwashing. Actual brainwashing is an extreme, intense thing.

I think that the intensive, non-stop immersion in religion that many children experience may not be extremely intense, but is still voluminous enough to constitute brainwashing.

Is raising a child in an intensive, non-stop immersive athiest household brainwashing, as well?

So I won't. I've been posting in here less and less of late because I'm tired of wasting my breath and wasting my time. The ignorant, unhistorical, and downright rude sentiments I see from so many people have really soured this place I used to love. I've had one too many whiffs of juvenile anti-religion angst.

So expect to see EL-the-Poster less for the time being. EL-the-Mod is going to be very present still, and far less tolerant of rudeness than she has been.

If "wasting your breath" means "having propaganda fall on deaf ears" then I'm sorry. I know that much of what I say counts as that, so don't get angry, I know that much of what I say is the same sort of thing. However, I don't think that it's a waste. As somebody said, all teens question their beliefs, and that's what I'm doing here. I think that this place is valuable, and I learn just as much about myself as I do about others when I post here. So, I would like to request that you are careful about what you chose to censure. If I'm being "ignorant" or "unhistorical" (is that a word?) please correct me. As to rudeness or "juvenile anti-religion angst" please tell me why what I said was rude and maybe I'll learn something. I know that many of my beliefs are inflammatory, but keep in mind that I find the insistence in the belief of God and the infallibility of scripture mildly insulting as well, and those sentiments are thrown around more often than I push my beliefs. I try my best to understand that there's not much I can do to change the fact that my beliefs are very incompatible with those of others. I just hope that you do the same.

Excuse me, hold on.

Ali has been an acquaintance (and later a friend, and later still someone I count as one of my best friends) for well over three years. In that time, we have had many discussions about religion, and in not one did I feel like she was spewing "propaganda" at me, nor have I ever felt like she was being condescending, patronizing, or anything else. You are not questioning your beliefs; if you were, you would be less willing to openly criticize and, yes, insult different beliefs. I am not Christian; I am not especially religious at all. She has never "insisted" that I believe in God, nor has she found herself completely unable to bend on issues that she felt were complicated.

You are inflammatory. She is stating her opinion and using the vast amount of knowledge she possesses about religions that are both nearer to her beliefs and at the opposite end of the spectrum.

You can disagree and be respectful. You are not respectful.

[hive_king]

Eriador, one of the main things is how you say things is extremely disrespectful. Now I know I can be a bit rude sometimes, but you're just ridiculous. It isn't just what you say, but how you say it. For instance, calling christians delusional. Now you may ask "how else could I have said it?" Well in the "would you agree with this" thread, I asked christians if they believe Atheists are delusional. I merely asked politely and avoided loaded words, but the concept is the same. I reccomend that you read over your posts and think "would someone who disagrees with me find this offensive" and "is there a more respectful way I can say the same thing"?

[eriador]

We might want to clear up a few things. Atheism is not an affirmative belief. It's a LACK of belief. That means that atheistic brainwashing is really just no instruction in what to believe, so it doesn't REALLY count. Anyway, my more intense, anti-religious beliefs are my own, I don't share them with my parents, and I don't know anybody who really thinks in the same way that I do, so I'm pretty sure that brainwashing has nothing to do with my beliefs.


As to the rest of what you said: I don't feel the same way as you, and I don't think I should. Criticizing me for having a different opinion about EL's religious discussion is against the rules of this forum. However, I will admit that I'm not really one to speak. I try to find a balance between expressing myself (one goal of this forum) and staying respectful (another goal). Some of my opinions can not, by nature, be fully both. However, as I have said, other peoples beliefs are the same way. I do my best. I'm not perfect, but I enjoy this place, and I think that having opinions like mine here are very beneficial. However, if my beliefs are continually challenged, ostensibly for the behalf of the "rules", expect to see a lot more of me in the "Discrimination Against Atheists" thread.

[Fish Tank]

Sibyl if you're going to give definitions of things make sure you give each definition. Specifically these:

Brainwashing - any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion.

Indoctrination - to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.

How many atheistic households do you know who take their children to meetings to discuss atheism? Or make them attend atheistic schools?