Cause Breakin' Up Is Still Hard To Do

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:11 am

The final panel there is excellent. There are a couple things at play here I'd like to mention, to wit:

1. Befriending me to date me is a s***** thing to do. Go check zero's comic for more detail.

2. I like having friends. Maybe I don't want to ruin a good friendship. I don't see anything wrong with having non-romantic friends of the opposite sex. I hate that guys seem to make such a big deal of that.

3. I may like you, admire you, even trust you. I might think you're a great guy. That doesn't mean I'm romantically interested - life's not that simple. I've had a number of guy friends, truly awesome guys who I work well with, have fun with, talk with, and think would make great boyfriends - but not for me. Sorry guys, it could be any number of things that makes you ineligible to be anything more than a friend. Being a "nice guy" doesn't mean there's "chemistry," and that's all there is to it.

So stop whining, stop pining, and move along to someone else.
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Postby Eddie Pinz » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:24 am

I tell her I am done with her period.
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Yeah I seen that when I reread my post. Glad someone got a giggle out of it.

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Postby Virlomi » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:19 am

I think it's true that it typically happens to guys more often, but speaking as a girl who has spent most of her semi-adult life camped out in the friend zone, I agree with Eddie that it has more to do with personality types. :?

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Postby Virlomi » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:27 am

Yeah, I know... double post. Sorry. :)
The final panel there is excellent. There are a couple things at play here I'd like to mention, to wit:

1. Befriending me to date me is a s***** thing to do. Go check zero's comic for more detail.

2. I like having friends. Maybe I don't want to ruin a good friendship. I don't see anything wrong with having non-romantic friends of the opposite sex. I hate that guys seem to make such a big deal of that.

3. I may like you, admire you, even trust you. I might think you're a great guy. That doesn't mean I'm romantically interested - life's not that simple. I've had a number of guy friends, truly awesome guys who I work well with, have fun with, talk with, and think would make great boyfriends - but not for me. Sorry guys, it could be any number of things that makes you ineligible to be anything more than a friend. Being a "nice guy" doesn't mean there's "chemistry," and that's all there is to it.

So stop whining, stop pining, and move along to someone else.

Do you think it's not possible (or a bad idea?) for a relationship to develop out of a friendship over time, then? I know that for me personally, the relationships I'm most proud of spawned from really natural, developing friendships that grew into something more. I agree with you for the most part, but I I guess I just don't really like the idea that you have to decide within the first few days of meeting me whether you want to be my friend or be romantically interested, and stick to it. It feels like you're kind of killing all sorts of potentially fantastic things before giving them a chance to play out.

I don't know... just something I've been thinking about.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:43 am

Oh, I think it's entirely possible. I think those are the best romantic-type relationships! I was just directing it at the segment of the population that likes to whine I'm a nice guy, why doesn't she date meeeeee?!
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Postby Rei » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:44 am

I have issues with trying to be friends just so that you might be able to date someone. But I do agree with you, Jani, that many of the best relationships come out of friendships. Those are certainly the relationships that I am most proud of in my life, as well.
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Postby Young Val » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:53 am

Having romantic feelings grow out of a friendship naturally is totally plausible (and wonderful), but going into a friendship with that as your ultimate goal is, as Ali said, s***** and will most likely backfire.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:27 am

There's at least one or two comics I've seen that say something about this, but I can't remember what they were... I wanna say Something*Positive or Ctrl-Alt-Del, or some other comic I don't follow...

Edit: Ah, here it is. There's probably others, though.
http://bash.org/?414593


My problem seems to be that I never know when to make my move. I move along at a glacial pace flirting and whatnot and by the time I'm ready to ask her out I've slipped into the friend zone without realizing it. It's a bit annoying when it happens. Not that I mind too much, I've got several great female friends - most of whom would've shut me down anyways had I made a move. And I've friend zoned a couple of girls along the way myself, so yes it does work both ways.
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Postby daPyr0x » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:56 am

Having romantic feelings grow out of a friendship naturally is totally plausible (and wonderful), but going into a friendship with that as your ultimate goal is, as Ali said, s***** and will most likely backfire.
The best relationships that I have had have all been friends becoming more than friends. It's totally plausible, it can happen. But you can't start being friends with somebody just so you can try and get in their pants. It won't work.

You meet an awesome guy/girl. You think they're the cat's meow, bee's knees, and the like. You know how you avoid getting in the 'friend zone'? Make your intentions known. Flirt, verbally and physically. Even if it's just high fives and such, make physical contact. If you're in a group, do it with everybody (so she doesn't find it awkward), but still flirt with the one you're after. Joke with them, even on them. Don't be afraid to make fun of them playfully, it's more attractive than being totally agreeable. And make the f****** move. You give up opportunities to make the move and you get thrown into the friend zone almost immediately. You gotta be in it for you, not for them. You're joking because YOU want to have fun. You flirt because YOU like them. And you make the move because YOU want it.

Now that's not to say you not back off if things don't flow that way or anything; but you're not going to get blacklisted for trying a little.

If you are already in the 'friend zone,' though, you're kinda pressed for options. The only way I've ever seen 'friend zone' successfully turn into 'relationship' is just from a natural evolution of your relationship. Trying won't help you there. Focus your interests on other people, and continue being friends. If you're continuously pining over this friend of yours, they're going to know and they're going to think of you as desperate or obsessive. But, if you're letting yourself get interested in other people along the way, then you can show them that you're an awesome person and might be good as more than a friend.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:33 am

That was what my third point was about. Great guy (even great boyfriend material) =/= great for ME. It might, but it might not.
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Postby daPyr0x » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:46 am

That was what my third point was about. Great guy (even great boyfriend material) =/= great for ME. It might, but it might not.
Psh, math geek. The proper way to write that would be !=

:P
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:54 am

No, because != is actually a math thing. Not that I ever had to deal with factorials, but anyway.
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Postby daPyr0x » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:05 pm

No, because != is actually a math thing. Not that I ever had to deal with factorials, but anyway.
mm, true. I had forgotten about stupid factorials. != is used in some programming languages as =/= or not= or whatever.
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Postby Wind Swept » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:21 pm

Good to see you following along, Josh.
Having romantic feelings grow out of a friendship naturally is totally plausible (and wonderful), but going into a friendship with that as your ultimate goal is, as Ali said, s***** and will most likely backfire.
I realize the conversation has moved far beyond my personal experience, but in the event that anyone still cares, I'd like to make it clear that my situation was very much the first of those two options.
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Postby Derwyddon » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:58 pm

How do you get upset when a friend you like doesn't like you if you NEVER LET THEM KNOW? If you convince them you're just a friend, then why are you upset when they believe you??
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Postby zeroguy » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:57 am

How can they not like me when I'm SO UNDERSTANDING AND NICE AND SEXAY? If I convince them (by showing) that I'd be a great partner, how could they not agree with me?

:stonedkermit:

Slightly more serious response: because actually saying what you feel is usually what they're trying to avoid at all costs. So after you've ruled that out... just go with whatever you can.
No, because != is actually a math thing. Not that I ever had to deal with factorials, but anyway.
Only an issue if you're dealing with natural numbers.
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Postby locke » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:08 am

How do you get upset when a friend you like doesn't like you if you NEVER LET THEM KNOW? If you convince them you're just a friend, then why are you upset when they believe you??
The reason most often told to me is that the guys don't want to lose a good friend since the guys in question know that the girls in question can't handle having just a friendship with a guy that they now know is (or was) interested in them.

in other words the friendship would never be normal again if the guy let the girl know that he liked her liked her.

oh, dramahz

i think the reason is that the guys are scared of being shot down and feel that if they've been so unmanned/lost-face as to have been shot down they can't hang out around that girl or be friends with her anymore because they'd feel so awkward and constantly be cringing at the memory of being shot down, they'd go into post traumatic stress syndrome every time they were around the girl. so instead of facing thats how'd they react they'd rather just say its "the girls fault" (this is the catch all explanation of all relationship troubles for many guys).

there's also the problem of context and experience, I think, for a lot of guys. if they're afraid of being shot down its because they haven't been shot down ever or enough times for the fear to go away, sort of like jumping off a high dive/cliff, you have to get the experience several times before you're acclimated to it. So if they're that inexperienced they also have utterly no clue what the appropriate actions to take or strategy/tact to follow when they suddenly find themselves interested in a girl. They also will probably wonder what in the hell their interest is. what exactly should they be feeling anyway. How do they get to know her better? they probably won't ask her out but they might try and be friends which is how the whole thing starts. the guys are too scared to ask someone out and probably don't even know how it works, but they do know how to make friends so they try what they know how to do.

And I don't think I've really been friendzoned in the past. my first GF tried to friendzone me, I think and I not really knowing or caring what she was trying to do just bulldozed through and we became a couple. :p I had one great frustration with expressing my interest in a girl the second day I knew her and her shooting down the prospect of a date, so I suggested we get to know each other better by just hanging out which she seemed okay with. to me that meant hanging out in a group because that would be more non threatening than alone time hanging out (more like a date) but our friend groups didn't overlap at all so if I invited her to a group movie or social event it was probably pretty intimidating without my ever realizing it. :P it never worked out but I suppose it was sort of like us both getting friendzoned by the other at the same time.

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Postby Wil » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:01 am

So, hey, question.

If I'm following this correctly, and there is probably a good chance that I'm not, the girls logic here is that a friend != relationship material. Essentially saying that, even if these two people get along great, can talk about anything with each other, have the same interests, those two people may not have "chemistry"? What IS "chemistry"? Sexual attraction? A raw, base urge to f*** the brains out of someone you may not get along well with at all?

I think this is probably where the "friend zone" confusion comes from. A lot (not many, not most, not a significant amount, but A LOT) of people complain to people of the opposite gender about their relationship troubles. Words such as "doesn't get me" or "just wants sex" or "we don't click" or whatever your fancy probably come up. The friendzonie probably sits there and wonders "Hey, we do these things! What's wrong with me! I'm here!". The stereotypical thing in this case is the friendzoner always getting in dead end relationships with the wrong people and complaining that their relationships don't have what >THEY<, the friendzonie and the friendzoner have.

So, what is chemistry? I am of the opinion (please, keep the 'misogynistic' comments to a minimum) that females just naturally file males into two distinct categories: "Friendable" and "Sexable" (or "Friend" and "Lover" if you wish). Moving from one to the other is near impossible also. So, am I wrong? Why am I wrong? That friend is what you say you want to him, but you have no chemistry! What is this chemistry! Why don't you have it! Why can't friends also be lovers! Questions that require answers.

I'll go ahead and (hopefully) refine my previous post also. See, my logic comes from this (hopefully covers a majority, but it's mostly just from my POV). Men are problem solvers and are run on logic. We solve problems. We figure out what's wrong and fix it. Emotion is a problem. What causes it? Why do you feel it? Does it need fixing? When we feel something we try and understand and rationalize it. As such, men have a much better understanding of why they feel what they feel.

Problem probably observed: Men don't let others know how they feel. Do not confuse this with men not knowing what they feel. They know it quite well. They are just able to control it better. Or, perhaps it's safe to say that men often are unable to explain it or express it rationally.

Now, women. (Less POV, more observation. Hopefully covers a majority.) You are much more complex. You bathe in emotion. Everything about you is an emotion. As such, understanding them and identifying each one is much more a chore than a natural instinct. While hormones are relatively stable for males, females are constantly changing hormonally. This much should be completely obvious.

Problem probably observed: Women have a tougher time discerning feelings for another. Reason being, as stated above, women run on emotional overload so often. Even if they do understand it, other emotions may get in the way of expressing it.

So, because of the above, I find it more likely that a male is stuck in the friend zone concerning a women than the other way around more often. A woman, as I said more near the top, seems to file people away under two categories. Reason for this? I don't know. Simplicity perhaps. I have no doubt guys also place women in a "friend zone" type place as well, however it is likely for different reasons. Could be they are infatuated with someone else, or they are involved with someone else, or they find you annoying/hard to be around/stupid/etc. Not that women can't use the same reasons, it's just probably simply more prevalent on the male side.

Now OBVIOUSLY this isn't everyone. When I say "women", "females", "men" and "guys", I don't mean everyone so PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT AS SUCH. It's much like me saying "Americans are Fat" where obviously I don't mean everyone, and not even necessarily a majority, or like women often saying "Men are assholes" where obviously not all men are. Obvious age/personality/mental clarity deviations occur. I still don't see where the problem is at. Maybe I just stated it in such a way that the overwhelming ANTI-WOMAN instinct kicked in, or somewhere along the line I got confused, or you got confused, or I said something that made everything else I said be conveyed in the wrong context. If I'm still wrong, again, someone correct me. Please. Without insult or craziness this time.

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Postby Derwyddon » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:52 am

How do you get upset when a friend you like doesn't like you if you NEVER LET THEM KNOW? If you convince them you're just a friend, then why are you upset when they believe you??
The reason most often told to me is that the guys don't want to lose a good friend since the guys in question know that the girls in question can't handle having just a friendship with a guy that they now know is (or was) interested in them.

in other words the friendship would never be normal again if the guy let the girl know that he liked her liked her.

oh, dramahz

i think the reason is that the guys are scared of being shot down and feel that if they've been so unmanned/lost-face as to have been shot down they can't hang out around that girl or be friends with her anymore because they'd feel so awkward and constantly be cringing at the memory of being shot down, they'd go into post traumatic stress syndrome every time they were around the girl. so instead of facing thats how'd they react they'd rather just say its "the girls fault" (this is the catch all explanation of all relationship troubles for many guys).

there's also the problem of context and experience, I think, for a lot of guys. if they're afraid of being shot down its because they haven't been shot down ever or enough times for the fear to go away, sort of like jumping off a high dive/cliff, you have to get the experience several times before you're acclimated to it. So if they're that inexperienced they also have utterly no clue what the appropriate actions to take or strategy/tact to follow when they suddenly find themselves interested in a girl. They also will probably wonder what in the hell their interest is. what exactly should they be feeling anyway. How do they get to know her better? they probably won't ask her out but they might try and be friends which is how the whole thing starts. the guys are too scared to ask someone out and probably don't even know how it works, but they do know how to make friends so they try what they know how to do.

And I don't think I've really been friendzoned in the past. my first GF tried to friendzone me, I think and I not really knowing or caring what she was trying to do just bulldozed through and we became a couple. :p I had one great frustration with expressing my interest in a girl the second day I knew her and her shooting down the prospect of a date, so I suggested we get to know each other better by just hanging out which she seemed okay with. to me that meant hanging out in a group because that would be more non threatening than alone time hanging out (more like a date) but our friend groups didn't overlap at all so if I invited her to a group movie or social event it was probably pretty intimidating without my ever realizing it. :P it never worked out but I suppose it was sort of like us both getting friendzoned by the other at the same time.
See, this is a little different than what we've been talking about. First, your personal experiences all sound really open and honest. So that's good. Second, I wasn't necessarily talking about guys who are afraid to tell a preestablished friend that they now have feelings, I was more talking about the people who hope they notice but try to convince them their friends, and then get upset when that person dates someone else or tells them about someone else they like and then go "yeah the nice guy never wins" No, the secret feelings guy doesn't win!

Or even worse, the people who try to become friends in order to hopefully eventually be a boyfriend/girlfriend.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:59 am

sort of like jumping off a cliff, you have to get the experience several times before you're acclimated to it.
What are you, a lemming?

Also, certain people up there need to learn how to do special characters: ≠ :P
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Postby Eddie Pinz » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:13 am

So, what is chemistry? I am of the opinion (please, keep the 'misogynistic' comments to a minimum) that females just naturally file males into two distinct categories: "Friendable" and "Sexable" (or "Friend" and "Lover" if you wish). Moving from one to the other is near impossible also. So, am I wrong? Why am I wrong? That friend is what you say you want to him, but you have no chemistry! What is this chemistry! Why don't you have it! Why can't friends also be lovers! Questions that require answers.
This just is not true. Personal example is my current girlfriend. I met her over four years ago. She was a friend of a friend. I liked her right away, but she was involved with someone. A short time after we met, she was no longer involved with anyone, but nothing ever happened. She says that she didn't know I liked her, but I was laying it on pretty thick and her best friend could tell I liked her, so I am sure she could have. So after that, I figured we were just friends. About a year after that, we hooked up. Nothing really came of it. After this we would hook up on occassion for different reasons, but neither person actively seeked out the other person. Just sort of a casual thing. Neither person really persued the other, so we both thought that the other wasn't interested. Fast foward to last summer. We started hanging out a lot and now we have been dating for over 9 months and it has been great. And we both aknowledge that if we would have tried dating before we did, it probably would have ended badly. We both changed a lot over that time a grew closer to each other. My comment on our relationship is "It was a strange and awkward journey to get here, but I wouldn't change a thing." My girl even went so far to say that she wasn't attracted to me initially. It wasn't until I loosened up and my personality changed that she noticed that I was pretty damn sexy. So we went to a point where she wasn't attracted to me - to whatever - to dating. If that isn't going from "friendable" to "sexable" then I don't know what is.

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Postby Virlomi » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:19 am

For the sake of responding thoroughly to your thoughts, I'm going to pull a BC Hornet. :wink:
So, hey, question.

If I'm following this correctly, and there is probably a good chance that I'm not, the girls logic here is that a friend != relationship material. Essentially saying that, even if these two people get along great, can talk about anything with each other, have the same interests, those two people may not have "chemistry"? What IS "chemistry"? Sexual attraction? A raw, base urge to f*** the brains out of someone you may not get along well with at all?
I think a discussion about how the heck to define chemistry could go on for about ten years, and I think it's safe to guess that everyone is going to have their own opinion on what it is exactly. For me personally, it's intangible and difficult to label, but is definitely not just "sexual attraction". In my life personally, the majority of romantic interests I've held have branched out of existing, sometimes LONG-existing, friendships which I had never given a second thought to romantically, until eventually chemistry just built, and I saw that person differently. Again, I think ten different people would have ten different answers for this, but for me at least it is definitely not a "raw base urge to f*** the brains out of someone".
I think this is probably where the "friend zone" confusion comes from. A lot (not many, not most, not a significant amount, but A LOT) of people complain to people of the opposite gender about their relationship troubles. Words such as "doesn't get me" or "just wants sex" or "we don't click" or whatever your fancy probably come up. The friendzonie probably sits there and wonders "Hey, we do these things! What's wrong with me! I'm here!". The stereotypical thing in this case is the friendzoner always getting in dead end relationships with the wrong people and complaining that their relationships don't have what >THEY<, the friendzonie and the friendzoner have.
I see this as a frustrating but inevitable aspect of human nature, regardless of gender. There are an infinite number of factors that I think play in to why someone can see one person and not see another. Part of the anger you met with earlier had to do with you blaming this all on silly womenz.
So, what is chemistry? I am of the opinion (please, keep the 'misogynistic' comments to a minimum) that females just naturally file males into two distinct categories: "Friendable" and "Sexable" (or "Friend" and "Lover" if you wish). Moving from one to the other is near impossible also. So, am I wrong? Why am I wrong? That friend is what you say you want to him, but you have no chemistry! What is this chemistry! Why don't you have it! Why can't friends also be lovers! Questions that require answers.
Again, I would argue, from the basis of many, many past experiences that this is not a "woman thing". To match you on the level of generalities... it's a fairly typical scene, at least in my experience, for a guy who "finds it really hard to really talk openly to other guys" to meet a girl, become friends with her, and give the girl the role of the confidant, the adviser, the judge of other girls in this guy's life... the outlet for his thoughts and feelings that might be considered "unmanly" or difficult to discuss around other guys. In that situation, the same factors apply but are reversed. So again, I see this as really situational rather than gender-specific.
I'll go ahead and (hopefully) refine my previous post also. See, my logic comes from this (hopefully covers a majority, but it's mostly just from my POV). Men are problem solvers and are run on logic. We solve problems. We figure out what's wrong and fix it. Emotion is a problem. What causes it? Why do you feel it? Does it need fixing? When we feel something we try and understand and rationalize it. As such, men have a much better understanding of why they feel what they feel.
A huge reason I reacted to your previous post was that you didn't call men logical, you said:
males may have a more.. illogical mind..
And instead of saying that women "bathe in emotion" you called them "absent minded" and "unaware of their emotions". Hopefully you can see how these phrases don't add up.
Problem probably observed: Men don't let others know how they feel. Do not confuse this with men not knowing what they feel. They know it quite well. They are just able to control it better. Or, perhaps it's safe to say that men often are unable to explain it or express it rationally.

Now, women. (Less POV, more observation. Hopefully covers a majority.) You are much more complex. You bathe in emotion. Everything about you is an emotion. As such, understanding them and identifying each one is much more a chore than a natural instinct. While hormones are relatively stable for males, females are constantly changing hormonally. This much should be completely obvious.

Problem probably observed: Women have a tougher time discerning feelings for another. Reason being, as stated above, women run on emotional overload so often. Even if they do understand it, other emotions may get in the way of expressing it.
And this general thesis is, I believe, why I at least reacted to your statement and had a hard time taking what you said seriously. I'm curious, how much do you know about personality type systems, such as the MBTI? I'll agree with you that the general stereotypes of the roles of men and women split them pretty neatly into the camps of logical and emotional, but this really has SO much more to do with personality types then just gender generalities. I'm not just saying that there are exceptions, I'm saying that there are huge segments of the population who don't fit into these neat gender categories or outrightly defy them, because these characteristics are based on individual wiring, not just "hormones".

I personally fit the general female stereotype of being extremely emotionally-guided (a high F on the MBTI scale). However, the explanation that it takes longer or is nearly impossible for someone who is more emotionally-based to recognize, understand, interpret, analyze, and (most importantly) express those emotions is kind of ridiculous. I would even argue that someone who falls in that high emotional range is more equipped to easily and naturally process and express their emotions than someone who falls, say, on the more logical side of the spectrum (a high T, on the MBTI scale, for example).
So, because of the above, I find it more likely that a male is stuck in the friend zone concerning a women than the other way around more often. A woman, as I said more near the top, seems to file people away under two categories. Reason for this? I don't know. Simplicity perhaps. I have no doubt guys also place women in a "friend zone" type place as well, however it is likely for different reasons. Could be they are infatuated with someone else, or they are involved with someone else, or they find you annoying/hard to be around/stupid/etc. Not that women can't use the same reasons, it's just probably simply more prevalent on the male side.


I've really tried... but I just don't get how what you've laid out about basic gender roles can bring you to this conclusion. I agree that it's a natural thing to file someone into "romantic potential" and "not romantic potential" camps, but I just don't get how this is a "female thing". I won't reiterate my speech on individual personality vs. gender... but I definitely think it applies.
Now OBVIOUSLY this isn't everyone. When I say "women", "females", "men" and "guys", I don't mean everyone so PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT AS SUCH. It's much like me saying "Americans are Fat" where obviously I don't mean everyone, and not even necessarily a majority, or like women often saying "Men are assholes" where obviously not all men are. Obvious age/personality/mental clarity deviations occur. I still don't see where the problem is at. Maybe I just stated it in such a way that the overwhelming ANTI-WOMAN instinct kicked in, or somewhere along the line I got confused, or you got confused, or I said something that made everything else I said be conveyed in the wrong context. If I'm still wrong, again, someone correct me. Please. Without insult or craziness this time.
To wrap up... the flack you got, at least from me, had to do with:

1) Claiming that all of this came down to basic generalities of gender stereotypes and then mis-representing what those stereotypes even were.
2) Leaping logically from women's decisions are more based in emotion to women are unable to process and express their emotions because they have so many of them that they just overload, and therefor men get "friendzoned" because they are able to understand and express how they feel and what they want, while women are always ten steps behind.


So... that was the most thorough response I could muster. Hopefully it made more sense than a one-liner.
Last edited by Virlomi on Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Luet » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:05 am

*applauds Virlomi for her fortitude*
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Postby Luet » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:11 am

Sorry for the double post but I had to address this little point:
they'd go into post traumatic stress syndrome every time they were around the girl.
I know you were using hyperbole here but I just needed to say (since it is close to my heart and experience) that PTSD is real and not the result of some relatively minor emotional experience, like getting turned down by a girl. It is generally the result of experience a life threatening event, whether your life was actually in danger or just FELT like it was. It often happens after a physical or sexual assault, a car accident, combat, etc. PTSD sucks and the effects last years.
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:14 am

So... I'm a bit in over my head right now, I think. More just because I've never quite been in a situation like this before. I met this girl... last year, I think. Truth is that I didn't pay her much attention at first. She was cute, to be sure, but I had no reason to pursue her, and I've never been the sort to go after a girl for physical reasons. I've recently come to realize the massive flaw in this method.

After a few months, and a few chats, I came to realize that I was incredibly attracted to her intellectually. I'm completely mired because I can't seem to move forward and pursue a relationship. The time I tried to make a move, we ended up talking about completely unrelated stuff. Part of me thinks it would be best to give up on my feelings, and hold on to the relationship we have now, but that seems too much like I'm playing it safe and giving up too easily. And, well, breaking up can be hard to do, even if you're breaking up with your feelings and not their object.

Advancing my feelings though, has the potential to cast our relationship up to now in a terrible, terrible light and ending that.

Really, though, I'd like to go for it again, but there's little over a week left before the school year ends and we put a few hundred miles between us. This is proving tricky.
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Postby Virlomi » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:37 am

*applauds Virlomi for her fortitude*

By the way, Luet... you can just call me Janelle if you want. :)

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Postby Luet » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:51 am

Thanks...and you can call me Nom or whatever you like. :)


And Janus, you're avatar is too similar to Derwyddon's. I read your whole post thinking that she was writing it and I was thinking "umm, isn't it a little soon to start a new relationship since you just left your husband a week or two ago?" Hehe.
Last edited by Luet on Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Derwyddon » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:00 am

Thanks...and you can call me Naomi, Nom, Nomi or whatever you like. :)


And Janus, you're avatar is too similar to Derwyddon's. I read your whole post thinking that she was writing it and I was thinking "umm, isn't it a little soon to start a new relationship since you just left your husband a week or two ago?" Hehe.
Yeah... that's not going to happen for a long while lol
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Postby daPyr0x » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:25 am

I think your problem, Wil, is that you haven't had enough real relationship experience. That, or you're a stereotypical alpha male who has no understanding of the word emotion especially within the context of his own self. And to be honest, I don't think you're the latter.

I know many women who are great girls and would make good girlfriends; just not for me. They're not my type, or not what I'm looking for (right now) and so they are friend zoned. Some of them know this, because they have tried; some of them don't.

Chemistry, though, is a whole different boat all together. You know when you're hanging out with a girl/guy you really like and talking about whatever thinking to yourself "mm, they're so _____; I just wanna _______ with them so bad."? Not having chemistry is never getting that. It happens on both sides of the gender line. I think the reason it seems to happen more to women has to do with their natural sexual responses. Men can get turned on by a couple of inappropriately arranged fruit; much less human interaction, so they feel this "I wanna ______ them" urge very easily and confuse that for actual chemistry. Women, on the other hand, have many different factors that play in to whether they will get turned on or not; and not all of them are under their, or whomever's they're with, control. As a result of that, you get the opposite effect where women will not feel chemistry that may well be there because of outside influences at the time (mood, pms, other relationship, whatever)

You get friendzoned because you're a 'nice guy'; or as I would otherwise call it, a pussy. You need to get it through your head that as much as women will tell you otherwise, this nice guy routine isn't what women are looking for. You've gotta be fun and look after yourself and try to involve her with you; not bow to her every command and take care of her. Be her partner, not her slave or groveller.
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Postby anonshadow » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:40 am

Honestly, in my experience, people end up being pushed firmly into the "friend" category when the person isn't attracted to them. I have a lot of guys who are very firmly "friends not boyfriends" in my mind, and they end up there because I just don't have any romantic/sexual interest in them. They're not boys. They're friends. Right, and also they have penises, but that doesn't matter. Guys who I'm not actively interested in but could possibly maybe be interested in if something changed go into the friends category, but they're less firmly wedged in there. And guys who I'm actively interested in end up elsewhere. I'm sure there are guys who have been annoyed at my pushing them into the friend box, but if I'm not interested, I'm not interested--and I'm really picky, too. My current boyfriend is the first boyfriend I've had who I don't have to say, "But his personality makes up for the looks." Because, yeah, looks are part of it. And I'm probably not making sense at this point, but.

Basically, liking someone as a person is different than liking them in some sort of romantic capacity. If all it took was being close to someone on a platonic level to want them on a romantic and sexual one, why wouldn't I just date my best friend? Why does sexuality matter at all? It matters because it's more than just "You're good to talk to."



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Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:24 am

For the sake of responding thoroughly to your thoughts, I'm going to pull a BC Hornet.
By pulling a BC, you're obviously trying to make yourself more "sexable." ;)

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Postby Wil » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:33 pm

A huge reason I reacted to your previous post was that you didn't call men logical, you said:
males may have a more.. illogical mind..
And instead of saying that women "bathe in emotion" you called them "absent minded" and "unaware of their emotions". Hopefully you can see how these phrases don't add up.
Yeah, the 'men' and 'illogical' part is one glaring change I made. This will sound mostly like an excuse, but I CAN explain it. When I was reading it over one final time before posting, I realized how horrible it sounded on the female side of the argument. To help balance it out I tossed "illogical" on the male side. What I meant by it was not that they think illogically but they ACT illogically (represented in the part where I said "are often unable to explain or express rationally"). In fact, THAT post was probably written while I was going through a mild seizure.

One of my problems is I'm not good at getting things from this head of mine down to the computer in always-logical ways in a single forum based post. It's much easier for me to do so through chat/in person because I can go off on tangents and have everything still make better sense. Hopefully that can be excused and people can bear with me... just try and understand I'm not attempting to insult or otherwise hurt people ALL the time. :P
I've really tried... but I just don't get how what you've laid out about basic gender roles can bring you to this conclusion. I agree that it's a natural thing to file someone into "romantic potential" and "not romantic potential" camps, but I just don't get how this is a "female thing". I won't reiterate my speech on individual personality vs. gender... but I definitely think it applies.
It's like... the majority of "friend zone" problems, not the majority of women and men. That's what I meant. I think that's the cause of the majority of "friend zone" problems.
To wrap up... the flack you got, at least from me, had to do with:

1) Claiming that all of this came down to basic generalities of gender stereotypes and then mis-representing what those stereotypes even were.
2) Leaping logically from women's decisions are more based in emotion to women are unable to process and express their emotions because they have so many of them that they just overload, and therefor men get "friendzoned" because they are able to understand and express how they feel and what they want, while women are always ten steps behind.
1) That first post.. let us just forget I wrote that. >.>
2) Men can understand, just suck at expressing because men are silly. Women can express it more fully, but have a harder time doing so because of various emotional related reasons which is equally as silly.
So... that was the most thorough response I could muster. Hopefully it made more sense than a one-liner.
Thank you! And yes, I do believe it was a much better post than your previous one.

Opening up the thread this morning.. I was afraid to even look. I was worried that I somehow botched this one up horribly also and was about to recieve a face full of hate. o.O
I think your problem, Wil, is that you haven't had enough real relationship experience. That, or you're a stereotypical alpha male who has no understanding of the word emotion especially within the context of his own self. And to be honest, I don't think you're the latter.
Dude, I totally tapped that s*** last night. Two whut whut in teh buttz also. *flexes*

Yeah, it's the first. I've had a few probably only six relationships offline and I've known a few people online also, and only really been stuck in a "friend zone" once, maybe twice. I have, however, been put in both the "younger than me zone" and the "conflicting school and home zone". The last one being a result of the girls acting differently... a lot differently... around school friends and me not really "fitting in" with that. :'(
You get friendzoned because you're a 'nice guy'; or as I would otherwise call it, a pussy. You need to get it through your head that as much as women will tell you otherwise, this nice guy routine isn't what women are looking for. You've gotta be fun and look after yourself and try to involve her with you; not bow to her every command and take care of her. Be her partner, not her slave or groveller.
I'm going to go with how other people handle it and say that "it depends on the girl". For me, I HATE acting like that guy that takes control of a situation. I hate talking about myself unless other people ask. (And, wait, nobody asked so I hate doing this!) I will not, however, "bow to her every command". I will take care of her and protect her if she wishes me to do so. I want to be a friend, but if I'm interested and I know she's interested, I won't settle for just being friends. I also hate small talk and talking for the sake of talking. I'd like to be able to know someone that talks when they feel like talking but doesn't talk to fill silence. I like the idea of just being around someone without having to always talk.

Er, yeah.

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Postby locke » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:42 pm

yes I was being faceticious. didn't intend to belittle the reality of PTSD, though I realize now that's what my post was doing.
Sorry for the double post but I had to address this little point:
they'd go into post traumatic stress syndrome every time they were around the girl.
I know you were using hyperbole here but I just needed to say (since it is close to my heart and experience) that PTSD is real and not the result of some relatively minor emotional experience, like getting turned down by a girl. It is generally the result of experience a life threatening event, whether your life was actually in danger or just FELT like it was. It often happens after a physical or sexual assault, a car accident, combat, etc. PTSD sucks and the effects last years.
I was more talking about the people who hope they notice but try to convince them their friends, and then get upset when that person dates someone else or tells them about someone else they like and then go "yeah the nice guy never wins" No, the secret feelings guy doesn't win!
I can see how you'd get that out of my post but I was trying to show how guys (probably guys without much dating experience) would position themselves as friends and keep the romantic interest a secret. essentially I was trying to say that a lot of 'nice guys' actively set themselves up to be friendzoned, and why they would rationalize such a strategy.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby fawkes » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:38 pm

I just wanted to share with my fellow break-up people a site my sister reccomended. It's called "the relationship obituary". You fill out a form asking some questions about your relationship, why it ended, things like that. It's actually a good healing tool. I'm glad she found it.

http://relationshipobit.com/obituary/show/633

This is actually my obit, but you can make one yourself by following the links on top.

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Postby zeroguy » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:39 am

i think the reason is that the guys are scared of being shot down and feel that if they've been so unmanned/lost-face as to have been shot down they can't hang out around that girl or be friends with her anymore because they'd feel so awkward and constantly be cringing at the memory of being shot down, they'd go into post traumatic stress syndrome every time they were around the girl.
To be fair, this isn't an entirely unrealistic possibility (except for the PTSD part; but I'm assuming that's just hyperbole).
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