As far as cherry picking goes - all of those people are doing just that, and picking only the portions of the scripture which support their ideology.
I'm not going to attempt to defend Islamic theology, since there are a vast array of things I disagree with, but I'm also not going to demonize Islam or the contents of the Qur'an. There are two broad camps of cherry pickers. Those who want only the warm-fuzzies of religion, and those who want none of the warm-fuzzies. Militant Jihadis, like Westboro Baptist Church, ignore all of the stuff about love and peace. The word "jihad" literally means "struggle", and includes spiritual struggle on AT LEAST an even footing with military struggle ("jihad bil saif").
"Liberal protestant" Christians, and many Muslims I've met (for example, many Ahmadis) like to ignore the stuff about judgement and God's righteous anger against those who practice injustice against the poor and helpless.
The following post will hopefully give you an idea of what it looks like to not cherry pick, and instead embrace even the seemingly difficult portions of your scripture in order to get a complete picture.
(quick edit, it's rather amusing that you selected Pat Robertson as an example here, since as I was writing up my post, I used him as an example of someone who would, rightfully, be dead under Old Testament law)
EP,
I'm a reductionist, but it's a beautiful day out, and I have other things to do.
Well, under your reductionist physicalism, if you do them, it's not as if you could have done anything else, since your particles happened to interact in that way; and if you don't do them, it's not as if you could have done anything else, since your particles happened to interact that way instead. So don't let me stop you from doing what physics said you were going to do anyway (but if I did stop you, you or I couldn't have helped it).
Third: You use the term "Perfect and Loving." Given "God exists" as your premise, with the (assumed) corollary that God is also "perfect," I would add that men (and women) are NOT perfect. Basically, because we're not, and that's OK--since we're only in God's "Likeness" God may treat us in a "perfect and loving" manner (which I would, of course, disagree with; and can, and later will, find plenty of examples), but we--by our nature--cannot deal with him in a perfect manner.
You're almost spot on here as well - note that the original question is framed in terms of "how can God exist if _____", so answers are going to be "He could exist like ________", or "He couldn't". I should also describe God as "perfectly just" in addition to the other attributes I've already mentioned, since it is an important one, one I suspect will come up later (in anticipation to your objection of my view of God).
While you're outside playing, and I'm inside taking a break from writing about shear-Alfvén waves in Gyrokinetic Simulation, I think it's time to write up my aside on how to understand the violence in the Old Testament from a Christian and Biblically sound point of view.
Starting point (these are the assumptions that we can make when working inside a Christian worldview):
- God is omniscient
- God is perfectly loving
- God is perfectly just
- God is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion.
- Humans are created by God
- Murder is wrong.
- Humans have since rebelled against God and our nature is now inherently sinful (missing the mark of what was intended for us)
- The Bible contains incomplete knowledge of historical events (i.e., we only have one narrative point of view in a particular account)
Before we get terribly in depth with the Israelite conquests of neighboring kingdoms as they settle the Promised Land, there are two other important issues to address.
First, the question of "what is murder?" The naive answer to this question "killing people", but that leaves the question of why we shouldn't ("because it's bad?"/"because the Bible says not to?"). Answering that question in a more satisfying way brings in what it means for us to be created by God, in His image. If you believe that the creator of something is the one with proper authority over it, than God properly has authority over human life; and killing another person becomes wrong because it is usurping God's authority over human life. The corollary here being that if God tasked a human with taking another human life, as an instrument for exercising his authority, then that would not be wrong. The obvious questions this doesn't answer are "how is killing people consistent with a loving and just God, even if He rightfully has the authority to do so?" and "does this mean you really think the God-told-me-to-kill-them defense is morally legitimate?" For the first question - I'll get there, that's what this post is about. For the second question - my answer is a qualified yes. If God
actually told you to kill someone, the only correct response would be to obey. But my immediate next response is that I'm
extremely skeptical of any such claim, and that in the scriptures, miracles were used as an empirical framework to authenticate the authority of people who claimed to speak on God's behalf (prophets), or even when God spoke directly to people asking them to carry out specific tasks (this is a form of the
interactive proof systems studied by computational complexity theorists). People who claimed to speak on God's behalf without being able to back it up were put to death (i.e., people like
Pat Robertson would be killed for their claims, rather than given a public forum to brag about their "pretty good track record").
The next part of my post is to look at the (threatened) destruction of several cities in the Old Testament, which aren't part of the invading-the-Promised-Land narrative. Specifically, Sodom/Gomorrah in the case of Abraham and Lot, and Nineveh in the case of Jonah. I'm going to quote some passages at length here (though I will try and chop out some of the surrounding text if I can do so without removing important context, and bold the most important sections), so wait on reading this through until you actually have some time.
Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”
...
16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
So what actually happens, after God says He will not destroy the cities if even 10 righteous people can be found there? Let's keep reading and find out.
Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and [a]bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” 3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.” 6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8 Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 They struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway.
12 Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place; 13 for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it.” 14 Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, “Up, get out of this place, for the Lord will destroy the city.” But he appeared to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
15 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the Lord was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city.
So even though God is unable to find even the 10 righteous men for which He said He would spare the city, He still rescues the one family that is apparently righteous enough (and based on the offer Lot makes, it seems like the bar is set pretty low for being rescued - apparently the rest of the city is even
worse than being willing to offer up their daughters as sex toys to protect two guests).
Now, let's take a look at Jonah and Nineveh.
3:1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days’ walk. 4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
5 Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. 6 When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes. 7 He issued a proclamation and it said, “In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. 8 But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. 9 Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.”
10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
4:1 But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life.” 4 The Lord said, “Do you have good reason to be angry?”
5 Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city. 6 So the Lord God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant. 7 But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered. 8 When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah’s head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, “Death is better to me than life.”
9 Then God said to Jonah, “Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “I have good reason to be angry, even to death.” 10 Then the Lord said, “You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?”
In this case, God withdraws His threat against Nineveh after they express remorse and make an attempt to repent; and proceeds to rebuke Jonah for being too swift to execute judgement rather than showing compassion.
Based on these two passages, and the fact that we have nothing in the Old Testament to tell us that the cities which were destroyed by the Israelite invasion of the Promised Land did
not have advanced warning to a "righteous remnant" or general calls to repentance in order to avert destruction, I don't have much problem interpreting those as God executing justice on the genuinely guilty (or believing that He would have evacuated those who were undeserving of justice). Belief in God's omnipotence and the strong demonstrations of His compassion, even in anger, allows me to trust this conclusion even more strongly.
