"Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Sun May 06, 2012 5:45 am

Maybe if I can't pick the tone for sure I'll pretend Mr. Hawking's reading them to me. :)
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Mon May 07, 2012 10:21 am

Being somewhat of a materialist, I believe that once you're dead, that's it.

Wish as much as you can, but wishing won't make it so: There is no Heaven, there is no Hell, there is no Limbo. There is nothing. Your consciousness exists in the same state as it existed before you were born, as in: it does not exist.

When my mom passed away over 15 years ago, and the rabbi said nice things about her (even though he didn't know who the heck she was), and spoke about how we would one day be rejoined with her in heaven, my brother and my dad and I looked at each other with a look of, "What sort of BS is this?" Mom's in a box, in the ground. We're throwing dirt on the box. Her head is in that end of the box. Her brain is decomposing in her skull, and all that was her language, personality, love, knowledge, compassion, etc., is rotting along with it. Not overly comforting, but making pretend about a pretty, shiny place isn't any more comforting. What was comforting was knowing that we got to tell her that we loved her before she died, even though we (well, at least I) realized that her knowledge of that was now gone, as well. Not comforting, except for that it's real.
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Mon May 07, 2012 4:26 pm

Out of curiosity, Steve, what did your mom believe?
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Mon May 07, 2012 4:40 pm

Both my parents were (well, one was, the other still is) agnostic.

They didn't force any belief system onto my brother or me, and allowed us to talk with people of whatever belief system those other guys had. They didn't take us to church or temple, nor did they seek to prevent us from going.

They didn't ridicule any belief system*, and they gave us basic information on what the various major belief systems were/are. There were Old and New Testaments in the house, and I read them both (not completely, but I was one of the MORE knowledgeable students in my High School AP English class when we reviewed "The Bible as Literature" back in 1979).


* I seem to recall a general disdain for any extreme religious belief, though--such as Christian Televangelistic Fundamentalism--as you would expect from any normal human being.
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Mon May 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Don't take this the wrong way Steve, but to me your view of "once your dead your dead" seems awfully pesimistic to me, though rational.

Lucky for me, being a Christian, I can take comfort in the idea of heaven because I don't believe it is pretence.
I think if I have kids I'll try to teach them of Christianity but not block them from exploring other religions. As I endeavoured to explain to you in our 7 page discussion on theology, I don't like to force the "chains" of God's law onto people because then they wouldn't like it and wouldn't wnat to serve god.

If my kids don't turn out Christian, I probably won't mind as "when you've dedicated your life to some great cause, God will forgive you for not realising the truth of Christianity". (Not exact quote, from memory as usual).
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Mon May 07, 2012 7:32 pm

Don't take this the wrong way Tiny Genius, but to me your assumption of an afterlife seems an awful lot like wishful/magical/delusional thinking. What makes it worse is that you feel compelled to spread your delusion.

And it's not a useful delusion. It's a delusion that breeds acceptance of misery on earth. What is the problem with a short 70 year term of misery on earth, when we have the glory of the eternal afterlife in front of us? Why fix the problems on earth, when they are meaningless when compared to eternity sitting in the warm, wonderful glow of an ever-loving God? There are some who even seek to DESTROY the health of the planet, and hasten the arrival of God/Christ on earth. Why worry about overpopulation (or trying to REASONABLY control population growth through such simple approaches as meaningful sex education, and the availability of free contraception), when you want to bring MORE "souls" to God, and improve the balance of YOUR religious thought over "the other guy's" religious thought--while ignoring the real issue that the world is already grossly overpopulated, and could use a little birth control. This is a dangerous delusion.

Religions such as yours (IIRC) that oppose simple birth control, or insist on teaching "abstinence only" in schools, are actually causing more harm than good.
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Bean_wannabe
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:30 am
Title: I spy with my Fishy Eye
First Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Location: England

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Tue May 08, 2012 1:24 am

I think you'd be hard pressed to find evidence to support the theory that Christians 'accept misery on Earth'. A religion based on the teachings of a guy who healed people and told his followers to care for the sick and the poor. A religion that ended the slave trade, started the Fair Trade movement and is still in many ways leading the way in humanitarian relief and aid in third world countries.

Just because this world isn't all there is does not mean we should ignore it.
"You're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 08, 2012 6:24 am

Except that there are Christian religious sects that do NOT believe in "Good Works".

Do Jehovah's Witnesses do anything for their larger communities except for "spreading the word"

Do Mormons?

Do Evangelicals?

To be honest, as I wrote my previous entry, I realized, "Steve, that's not quite true." There are many Christian (and Jewish, and Islamic) groups that actually do some good.
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Bean_wannabe
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:30 am
Title: I spy with my Fishy Eye
First Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Location: England

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Tue May 08, 2012 8:41 am

Sorry, could you please define for the sake of clarity what you mean by 'Evangelicals'? I would interpret it as just those Christians who are particularly into evangelism, rather than any particular sect.
"You're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 08, 2012 10:16 am

I doubt that the world would be any better without religion, because I think that most of the negative aspects that arise from extremism are really just aspects of human nature. If people weren't killing, persecuting, and oppressing for their god(s) I think it's a safe bet that they'd be doing the same things for other justifications.

As nice as the lyrics and sentiment of John Lennon's "Imagine" are, I think it's naive to believe that upon discovering that this life and this world are all we get people would actually take it upon themselves to take more responsibility.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 08, 2012 11:53 am

Who's the pessimist now?
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 08, 2012 1:12 pm

I'm a realist.

If people can take Christianity (for example), a religion where the central figure said things like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Whatever you do unto the least of my people, that you do unto me", and use it to justify murder and persecution, guess what; those people wanted to do those things anyway and will find something or someone to make it okay in their minds.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 08, 2012 1:38 pm

So, let's take away the excuse.

Lay their intentions bare.

And start collecting taxes on some prime real estate!
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4445
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Tue May 08, 2012 2:36 pm

Except that there are Christian religious sects that do NOT believe in "Good Works".

Do Jehovah's Witnesses do anything for their larger communities except for "spreading the word"
Actually, yes. Whenever there are natural disasters in an area, we are usually the first to arrive with relief supplies and to start rebuilding efforts. The first goal is helping our own members but we also help anyone in need in the area. This happened after 9/11 in NYC when hundreds escaped across the bridge to Brooklyn Bethel and were given food, clothing and shelter until they could return home; in New Orleans, Haiti, Japan, etc.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 08, 2012 2:59 pm

So, let's take away the excuse.

Lay their intentions bare.

And start collecting taxes on some prime real estate!
Do their intentions or excuses matter though? Only to them and those like them, I think.

And I've said nothing of the good religion does. It's not all about the great goods and evils in the world. A belief in God(s) keeps people going at times when they would otherwise give in to despair. It brings people joy and fulfillment and, contrary to what you said above, a sense that the good things that they do for their fellow man do not go unnoticed. Most religions that I'm aware of encourage if not require their followers to perform acts of good in this world if they expect to receive any spiritual reward. Quite the opposite to "screw this world, I'm spending eternity in Heaven anyway!"

There's probably 1000 theists like this for every jihadist and zealot. In other words, you may toss out baby Jesus with the bathwater. :lol:
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 08, 2012 3:26 pm

Luet,

I did not know this. I had always thought that JW's were very insular. Thank you for the info!
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4445
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Tue May 08, 2012 3:31 pm

I was scared to see what you might reply, Steve, which is why I rarely venture into religious topics online. So, thanks for being nice! :)
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Wed May 09, 2012 2:51 am

Great! You guys stole my rant!
I checked my e-mail, found the topic reply notification and read Steve's message. I got really annoyed and found a number of things wrong with it and now you guys have beaten me to it!

Oh well, its good to "see" Steve get it :)

I will say this though, my post was merely pointing out how believing beneficial whereas you were just saying "Christianity is a dangerous delusion" without giving a reason why that view was a good one. Like I said, atheism is rational and I won't be especially bothered if my kids turn out that way or any other because I'll try to teach them of higher causes. Sorry if "higher causes" just sounds like more religious nonsense.

P.S. I had a perfectly sufficient sexual education and my sister, a more devout Christian than I, uses birth control.
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 09, 2012 10:18 am

My parents always told me to be nice with delusional people*. First, because one should always be nice. Second, because you never know if they're carrying a weapon.


*People who go around telling everyone they should believe in giant invisible telepathic/telekinetic humanoids who existed before there was food, or air, yet still have mouths and teeth and vocal chords and anuses (anii?); and even though they do not reproduce sexually, they still have genitalia. Big genitalia. Big invisible genitalia. And even though they say they love us, they still have no compunction against throwing us in the basement, setting us on fire, and locking the door. Forever (not a day, not a week, not a month or a year. Not 5 or 10 years. Not 100 years. Not 10,000 years. Forever. On fire. In the basement. But they do this because they love us. OK....)
:lecture:
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 09, 2012 10:24 am

I notice that no one's addressed my statements regarding contraception and sex eduction, and how many religions (certainly the more conservative ones) get that wrong.

BTW, disproving my point about charitable giving: http://www.hoover.org/publications/poli ... ticle/6577" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Bean_wannabe
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:30 am
Title: I spy with my Fishy Eye
First Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Location: England

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Wed May 09, 2012 2:55 pm

I can't speak for other religions, but over here no-one (barring Catholics) has a problem with contraception. I find it hard to believe it's such a problem in the US - finding a biblical justification for being against it is challenging, I believe.
"You're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 09, 2012 4:14 pm

The idiot-class over here doesn't seem to have a problem with finding justification for pretty much anything they hate in the Bible(s). Maybe that's why I've gone from atheist/neutral to semi-militant atheist lately.

A guy I work with is producing a series of "works" (not to give his idea away) which include the phrase "The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God" and wanted to have an interwoven cross and atheist logo. I told him, "If you're going to call us fools, have the cross obliterating the atheist logo. Don't pretend like you want to get along with us." The fun part is (and I'm serious), is that we both know where we stand, and so we can have discussions/debates without too much in the way of hurt feelings. He also believes that the Bible states that dinosaurs were created along with Adam and Eve, and co-existed with men ("Behemoth" and "Leviathan"). (For the record: I do NOT consider him a member of the "Idiot Class.")
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4445
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Wed May 09, 2012 6:30 pm

And even though they say they love us, they still have no compunction against throwing us in the basement, setting us on fire, and locking the door. Forever (not a day, not a week, not a month or a year. Not 5 or 10 years. Not 100 years. Not 10,000 years. Forever. On fire. In the basement. But they do this because they love us. OK....)
:lecture:
And for the record, Witnesses have no problem with contraception either. We also do not believe in any version of hellfire or eternal torment (or immortality of the soul, the trinity, and many other traditional beliefs).
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 09, 2012 8:47 pm

Interesting:

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Bel ... eliefs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


About a month ago, I was showing a Mormon co-worker some imagery of dragons (regarding their physiology. It was actually work-related! I love my job). He commented how interesting it was that when something didn't actually exist (he was referring to dragons), people could make it look like anything they wanted it to.

Sort of a "divide by zero" response.

I said, "That sounds an awful lot like religion, doesn't it?"
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Wed May 09, 2012 10:25 pm

What is this job, Steve, that involves the physiology of mythical creatures?

Oh, and we (Christians) don't believe in any physical representation of God with or without gargantuan unseen genitalia. [Red Dwarf> "Dave Lister, the man with the galaxy sized jock-strap"]
I find the idea of trying to think of "what God looks like" frankly preposterous.
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 pm

I had worked at a scene shop for a number of years, and we had designed and built a fire breathing dragon for a movie theater in Alberta, Canada. The dragon discussion came up because we had used a specialty paint for the dragon's silicone skin, and I thought we needed a similar paint for a current non-dragon-related project.

The head of the art department, who had sculpted the dragon (full size, from a beautiful 1:24 scale maquette he had also created), had a conversation with me at one point, pointing out how frustrated he was to have to sculpt a dragon with BOTH forearms AND wings, and how that was a physiological impossibility...

BTW, my Mormon friend said he KNEW (with surety) that God was a giant invisible telekinetic white man, with teeth and an anus and everything. I thought it was fascinating that God was replete with all these evolutionary aspects....

Dragon: http://youtu.be/GyLax-Q94d4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Fire at 1:15)
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Mich
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:58 am
Title: T.U.R.T.L.E. Power
First Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Location: Land o' Ports
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Mich » Wed May 09, 2012 11:26 pm

Wow, that looks awesome! Geeeeeeeeze.
Shell the unshellable, crawl the uncrawlible.

Row--row.

User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Thu May 10, 2012 1:18 am

How can God be both invisible and white? The former light passes through you without being affected and the second is pretty much the opposite, it gets deflected right back where it came from. Seems to me that there's a contradiction there.

Anyway, I'm not your Mormon friend or even a Mormon, no image of God for me, even if I could see :).
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Thu May 10, 2012 1:30 am

How can God be both invisible and white? The former light passes through you without being affected and the second is pretty much the opposite, it gets deflected right back where it came from. Seems to me that there's a contradiction there.

Anyway, I'm not your Mormon friend or even a Mormon, no image of God for me, even if I could see :).
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Thu May 10, 2012 10:18 am

The sense I get is that people believe that their God, although invisible, and though having existed before, during, and after "time" (as if that means something), and being universally recognized as NOT beholden to any of the evolutionary processes we infidels believe occurred here on earth (and, very likely, on any other planets throughout the universe where life may have arisen--if it isn't the most absolute BLASPHEMY to propose such a thing), nevertheless possesses the traits that we associate with Caucasian men. We know in our hearts, right?, that God is not "Black" ("Afro-American" would not be a correct description in this case), Chinese, or any of the many native/aboriginal tribes of any of the earth's continents. It was a Caucasian Jesus that presented himself to the Native Americans (Black men being evil, of course, until around 1976). It was a white Jesus that died for our sins on the cross. And it is, of course, a Caucasian God that led the Israelites to victory against their many enemies.

Look into your heart. What color is your God?

(Tiny--this is not directed solely at you)
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Bean_wannabe
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:30 am
Title: I spy with my Fishy Eye
First Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Location: England

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Thu May 10, 2012 10:28 am

Well, as 1/3 and all of my God was and is a middle-eastern man, He's 1/3 and completely human-coloured. That clear it up? :D

I think the problem is that is people don't know what someone looks like they assume they look similar to them. Our brains are wired such that we try to think of things in terms of physical objects, so we try to imagine God as looking like us. Not at all helped by the images shown to small children of a guy with a big beard.
"You're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Thu May 10, 2012 12:36 pm

I personally don't think of God as really having a physical form, but if most people in Western society picture him as a white man, it's probably because they're bombarded with images of a white Jesus, and it makes sense to imagine them looking similar.

On a more general note, I've heard others say what Bean_wannabe said about people automatically picturing people for whom they lack a description as looking like themselves, but I don't think that's quite accurate. I, for instance, have realized that if I'm reading a story I will assume that characters are white unless I'm provided with some reason to think otherwise, even though I'm black. So I think it's more a matter of people automatically picturing the "norm" in their society.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4445
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Fri May 11, 2012 3:47 pm

*puts on not-so-new but still shiny mod hat*

Steve, if I could ask you to avoid directly or indirectly insulting people who believe differently than you (terms such as idiotic, delusional, etc.). Nobody here has called you any name or insulted you for your beliefs, so I would really appreciate it if you could carry on this conversation with the same courtesy.

A reminder of the rules for religious discussions:
Rules:
6.There are a few threads with special rules...Religion threads are also to be posted in with respect. Please do not paint all people of one religion (or of one ideology) with one brush.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Fri May 11, 2012 4:04 pm

Luet,

"Idiot" was in reference to the "Idiot Class" of people in the United States who believe that all their hate can find justification in the Bible. I'm not going to be nice to them. I'm not a Christian, and they haven't earned it.

The definition of "Delusion" is: "An idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality" God is defined as a large, invisible, time-spanning, telekinetic, telepathic creature with many inherently contradictory aspects. It also exists outside of our reality, so it is not a "real" creature, as we define reality. A belief in such a creature is therefore a delusional belief.

I will say that a lot of (perhaps all of) the people here who believe in this creature, or some form of it, are great people, and their belief has led them to do some wonderful things*. That part I love. I will acknowledge that *I* need to be more giving of myself to people with less than what I have, and I've been bad about that lately. But the belief itself is a delusional one, as I explain above.

But you're right, I have been too harsh. I apologize to any I have offended.


* The problem is that there are a lot of other people with similar, delusional beliefs, who are attempting to impose some very odd and very negative restrictions on people, and their rights and freedoms. Some of these people are even doing what they can to hasten the end of the world (or, at least, expressly looking forward to its demise, and not doing a damn thing to help). If it was all good, I wouldn't have to worry about it.
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Tiny genius
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:59 am
Location: Starship Herodotus

Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Sun May 13, 2012 2:48 am

Been away for a few days, no internet. Backlog of a few points to discuss:

Colour of God: I guess we do instinctively attach physical attributes to things. As children we learn to thing of God as a big man and this persists when he's just meant to be a presence. I actually find the idea of God as a black man with a deep voice more reassuring and Godly than a white man that got stuck in my head since childhood.

The "d" word: I know that delusional is probably technically accurate in this case but I was also getting sick of it and it carries negative connotations. In fact, I was ready to rip out the same quote Luet did. All done now though.

Aliens and blasphemy: I do not consider it blasphemous to believe in aliens. It is perfectly conceivable and probable that they are out there. I believe that they exist myself.

P.S. Steve, I know the question wasn't aimed solely at me, most comments I make about my sight are jokes or descriptions. I have enough left to tell the difference between skin colours.
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs


Return to “Milagre Town Square”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 24 guests