Hey, guys - I f****** up (again)

[Gravity Defier]

This is what I said to Jan, with some background explanation in.

I should have taken the break a month ago.
I tried, I honestly did, but people PMed, IMed, texted, emailed.
And it was like, if I walked away then to breathe, people were taking it as a hissy fit.
So I stayed, I jumped back in.
Sent at 12:40 PM on Wednesday
me: Meanwhile, mod stuff is happening, Josh doesn't seem to get it afterall (bacground add: his posts in either Noodle's or brain's mock election threads are what I mean by that), so frankly, it doesn't seem like there's any point going back to you. People voted him back in, time for me to deal with that.
Meanwhile,I'm at work, at my desk where I can't log-in to Pweb for most of the day, and all I see, all day long, is full chat and quiet Milagre.
And it's the same people in chat.
You, Caspian, Kirsten, Noodle, Helen.
Others come and go, it's mostly you guys.
Oh, and Kelly.
She's in there all the time.
I don't begrudge the chat (addendum being: I was okay with it when I felt like it wasn't taking the place of the board. I obviously begrudge the hell out of it now).
Sent at 12:44 PM on Wednesday
me: I got sad that sure, Milagre still got posts, and maybe even more than before the move, but for me, where I am stuck with nothing but the ability to read, when it slows down in Milagre but is hopping in chat, I feel like I'm being excluded entirely.
Then, Pastwatch comes up.
I think, "Nice. I get to be a part of something special."
Only, no.
That was really chat inspired.
I was just in the right place at the right time.
I get to say, "I think this is a great idea!" and that is the end of my "help."
Sent at 12:47 PM on Wednesday
me: I get told by a well-meaning brain that Milagre is the heart of everything but there were so many days I felt like I was talking to mysef on the board while everyone congregated in chat.
I went in when I could but I can't often.
Either because of work or because it was overwhelming and you all had already been in there together, without me, that I felt like I didn't belong. [insert clique feelings here and background add that the first thing Josh said to me when I was in chat once was making light of privacy concerns.]
And any time I made the comment that I felt out of place, it was met with people telling me it's all in my head.
No one ever thought to talk to me and ask me to explain.
No one thought to ask questions if they didn't get it.
It was all Alea is throwing another fit, being dramatic. (added: you all thought you knew what was wrong and maybe you did)
Maybe that was supposed to be reassuring and supportive.
I wanted someone to do what Nomi did.
Say, "I can see how you would feel that way, even if I disagree with that being the case."
And if they couldn't see, then ask.
I felt like I "lost" Milagre.
Like the very people who said I wasn't including them when the zero stuff first came out were pushing me out and had no problem with that.
I put everything on the board.
I talked to anyone who asked me anything.
I never did the majority of my interaction in a place where it kept people out.
If I spent too much time in chat the few times I used it, I left to be on the board.
Sent at 12:55 PM on Wednesday
me: The OOC thread just rubbed it into my face that I didn't belong.
All I had left was the front page stuff.
That's it.
That is the only part where I thought I could still be a part of things.
I make a comment in the thread, nearly a week goes by, nothing.
I make another comment.
You sure were quick to point out stuff needs to be hidden in the Star Chamber but a 2 minute post in the Meta thread was too much when I know for a fact you were in chat that night?
Really?
Sent at 12:58 PM on Wednesday
me: I shouldn't feel exlcuded or ignored but things I post are getting skipped (unintentionally) and then not even a "I'll get to this later" if you really didn't have time but people, you included, are making time for chat?
So fine, I'm taking a break.
Sent at 1:00 PM on Wednesday
me: Only, instead of anyone thinking, "Gee, we know Alea is needing a break but we also know she wants to be a part of this. Maybe we should wait, so she can be included", it's, "Okay, let's do this RIGHT NOW. Oh, and look. Noodle read through the whole thread, criticized the backwardsness of going for design over content, gave these brilliant suggestions, let's jump on that train!"
So, either he did read the thread and thought my ideas were s*** or he didnt read the thread and magically stumbled upon the idea that all we talked about was design.
Or maybe I'm just assigning malintent (is that a word?) where none was meant.
Maybe I should be grateful that people who didn't care about a front page in the first place were humoring me...even though it would result in me being left out of the one last thing I had.
Sent at 1:03 PM on Wednesday
me: It's just, you were afraid to make decisions, I was paranoid about making comments lest they be taken as direct attacks.
Because trust me, every last person was willing to back you up in a heartbeat.
zero, included.
Maybe that should have been my clue that I was the wrong person here.
I don't want people kissing my ass, telling me things are being done because of me or for me or to shut me up and make me happy.
I wanted people to really stop and look at it from my side.
How it was possible for me to think everything I did in the first place.
Instead, people assumed the worst of me.
I must hate Jan.
I must not trust her or the mods or the techs.
I must want everything to automatically go my way or else.
Sent at 1:10 PM on Wednesday
me: Maybe no one is out to get me but no one seems to really be on my side, either.
That's fine.
Sent at 1:11 PM on Wednesday
me: Caspian gets to make a thead in which he gets to antagonize people who disagree with his wife, which is passive-agressive and backhanded and cowardly, but I am supposed to feel safe going to anyone on the board with why I feel left out?
Jan, my issue has not been with you.
It is possible to disagree without hating someone.
Sent at 1:14 PM on Wednesday
me: I don't want you to feel like I disagree with everything and I don't want you to be afraid to make decisions but you can't be in your position and take disagreements as anything more than conversation.
But you are just as likely as me to take it personally and as a judgement and criticism.
But because of my already making issues of everything before, I'm now automatically the bad guy and you're the saint who's just trying to do her job.
Sent at 1:17 PM on Wednesday
me: Then you tell me, when I am making an effort to prevent hurt over a DY, that I am causing it, well, I just can't win.
When I try to explain things, it's taken the wrong way.
When I don't, I'm throwing a fit
I can't win for losing.
And you know, I'll post this on the board for everyone.
Even if they're pissed off.

That's all. I get it, I f****** up, everyone's mad, I hurt feelings, I'm not trying to dismiss that or brush it off as meaning nothing to me. It just seems to me that when I explain I feel a certain way, I am causing trouble and when I stop explaining and walk, I'm being an ungrateful, selfish, hurtful bitch.

Also, for those who didn't get the record, I deactivated all of FB, not any one person. I also deleted posts out of hurt! Including my story in Pastwatch.

I am a stellar, stellar human being who is obviously a benefit around here. Honestly, I feel like s*** on the board, have for a month, and don't foresee that changing because it would involve me asking unfair things and I refuse to do that.

Keep doing the front page, keep chatting, the best is wished upon you all. And love to appropriate places and people.

[starlooker]

I feel like I am being asked to apologize for chat. And, yet, I just can't bring myself to apologize for the fact that while I am going through one of the hardest emotional periods of my life that I'm spending time hanging out with people in the chat because it helps me make it through the day. I'm sorry that there's this new thing on the board that is pissing you off and making you feel left out. Lord knows, I've felt that way before when people talked about AIM chats I wasn't part of and when everyone was calling and having offboard relationships with everyone else.

And, yet, I can't believe the amount of resentment and hurt you are CAUSING because of those feelings. I can relate to feeling left out and excluded, even if the leaving out and excluding are obviously unintentional. I really can. What I cannot get past is you taking it out on everyone the way you are. (And, yes, you are.) And then interpreting everything everyone does in the most awful light possible, because if we're really trying to do all of this, we must be horrible people.

Also, even if the Pastwatch backstory hadn't happened, it STILL would've been chat-inspired, or are you forgetting that this is where the three of us came up with it? (Yes, the THREE of us. You, me, Tony. All of us.)

(Oh, by the way, a simple, "Here's a link to the work we've done so far" and "Here's how I want to be involved with the new board" might've helped. None of us are mind readers, you know?)

I am TIRED of you asking us to look at it from your perspective after you've gone and been hurtful and angry and threatened to abandon Pweb all together. If you started with the explanation and left out the part where you're accusing everyone so they feel bad for doing things that they never intended to cause harm, or when you try to look at it from someone else's perspective FIRST, I will probably find it easier to care about your perspective again.

I know there is a better side to you than all of this. I know it. I am INCREDIBLY grateful for it. You've reached out to me and been helpful to me and I hate being angry with you.

I didn't take your Bob post about needing a break as a hissy fit. I took it as something you were doing to be healthy for you. And I wish to God you'd actually taken it. Because being here now is obviously hurtful for you, and I wonder if you'd taken a break and come back, you'd see things in a less intense and intentionally hurtful light. Maybe not. I don't know.

[Gravity Defier]

Don't apologize for chat.

I'm sorry I hurt anyone I did; I can't take it back. I don't know how to fix it. I have accepted that people are going to be angry and resentful.

I don't see my leaving as a loss, only as a gain.


Thank you for responding.

[Satya]

Well...

I wish there was something I could say. But I don't even have half a clue about much of this. To be honest I was just thinking to myself about how everyone seems to know everyone's name around here now after 6, 7, 8, 9 years... but I still couldn't tell you who Jan or Nomi is despite how many times I've heard those names. I couldn't match them to a username if I tried. I guess I never really paid much attention to any of that; certainly didn't spend time in chat but once or twice.

If I had to speak my mind on the matter... I'd say we lost Milagre a long time ago. Long before chat. I don't know what happened or exactly when, but this place isn't what it's name implies; "an Ender's Game fan resource." It's not a forum in the strictest sense of the word. It's a time capsule. For people from a particular time and place to stay together. I remember making upwards of 50+ posts a day - myself, let alone what everyone else was doing. That's not to say that the quiet down is bad in and of itself. But I've always felt the outsider, only now it's kind of accepted, a kind of nostalgia inclusion. Not to take away from the fact that this is about your concerns and not mine, GD. But I think I've always known how you feel. I can't say I'd "take a break" because I don't really post much as it is - but for reasons that are probably what you're talking about. I like these people, of course. I wouldn't keep coming back if I didn't. There's a kind of nostalgia-goggles effect for me as well, a reminder of times in my life since passed. But there's just not much more to say anymore. Milagre is the heart, that's true - it's the only place I go - but the beat is not the same, nor as strong. I wish I could understand more of what you're talking about, but perhaps I'm too far outside the loop. I haven't read any of the Pastwatch stuff, I just barely skimmed what it was all about. I wasn't planning on posting in it - what I've talked about, even lately, about myself is already touching too close to personal for me, as much as I like and have come to trust people here. I feel like maybe it's intent was to be fun or light-hearted, even if it was personal stuff - and I don't have anything fun or lighthearted to talk about in that regard. But you know I consider you one of my favorite people here - and as someone whose home is Milagre, I'm sad to read this all.

[LilBee91]

I've been trying to come up with a good response and I can't.

I'm not mad nor are my feelings hurt. I've had my fair share of time as an outsider, but I've never really been an insider to know what the loss of that could feel like.

I'm sorry Pweb hasn't been good to you, Alea. I'm sorry it's not the home it should have been. I'll miss you, but if this absence will make you happier than it's worth it. I hope you come back to us, but I understand if you don't.

*hugs*

[neo-dragon]

I think the world of Alea. She knows this. And I know that things that were said and done hurt her deeply, although that was no one's intention.

However, I can't agree that pweb hasn't been good to her.

[Gravity Defier]

Promise, I'm disappearing soon. I just want to make sure Jan gets the chance to talk to me. She was kind enough to let me try to explain, she's hurt, I want to leave with her feeling better, and that means doing whatever she'll let me do without saying I'll stay.

I've had my fair share of time as an outsider, but I've never really been an insider to know what the loss of that could feel like.

This just..makes me sad. Likewise when Satya said it. When I first showed up here, 8 years ago, I was constantly accused of being in a clique and I changed my behavior as best as I could. I did chat in AIM chat every so often, just as did in this chat, but I always, always, put the board first. Even the Pastwatch stuff, that Kirsten pointed out, was discussed in chat but 100% of that discussion transferred to the board. Otherwise, I also used the chat to tell people about my being giddy over zero (made it to the board) and to say I was depressed (been on the board).

I wanted to do the Spotlight stuff because I had, for some reason, this amazing luck with knowing a lot of people. It took work to get to know so many of them but I did and they are amazing and I wanted everyone to know that and have that. Mind you, I was getting told I was part of this in-circle for a while leading up to that when the truth is, I talk to everyone who wants to talk to me. I tried to include everyone and when I goofed up and didn't ask questions to get people involved or when I inadvertently left people out, I felt bad and made amends when possible. There was discussion about Pastwatch being exclusive or making people feel left out. I didn't see that but Jan pointed it out and I understood, all too soon, that it could be taken that way. I also thought it was for everyone, that they would be invited to partake, so hopefully they would forgive the slight, but I understood how it could be seen.

I've tried, in every last thing I do, to include people. That people feel left out hurts. And yes, it hurt tremendously when it felt like they were shutting me out. Not because I was in the in-group but because I thought I was their friend. I don't want apologies for chat being used, nor do I want anyone to feel guilty; I want people to understand I was hurt, no lengthy break is going to change that. I could leave for a month and see it being used and have the same feeling of exclusion. I could try to bite that back for a bit but ultimately, the issue would pop again. So, the solution is to remove the problem: me.

I'm sorry Pweb hasn't been good to you, Alea. I'm sorry it's not the home it should have been. I'll miss you, but if this absence will make you happier than it's worth it. I hope you come back to us, but I understand if you don't.

Thank you for this but please understand, as appreciative as I am to hear it, as nice as it is to have people not make me feel like my feelings weren't even the slightest bit justified and the wrong-doing was all mine, people were very hurt by my actions and don't feel Pweb wasn't good to me. I'm sorry I hurt them but to say I would have felt differently after a break is not realistic. I just may have been more civil and maybe that would have made all the difference. Too late to say now.

I blew up in the other thread because the site conversation has happened as recently as the past few months; it's not all from a year ago, nor is the brunt of the conversation about it that old. The content stuff was the easy part; no need to harp on that. The hard part was getting people to agree on the looks. And a lot of time was spent on that; Wil would do something, I would give input, and then we started trying to add the content. I get it; Pweb isn't the world to everyone, they have lives and s*** happening in them that is more important. Guess what? I have s*** going on in mine, too, but that doesn't make it any less hurtful that it was truly that easily forgettable to everyone. It's not about stealing thunder, it's about feeling like I have to be Orange or Blue to matter. Because my opinion matters exactly as long as it is 100% lined up with Jan's. If not, I must be picking on her or giving her a hard time. I agree with stuff she's done; maybe I should have been more vocal.

I liked the clean-up of the movie and book clubs. Great job cleaning up mods (full disclosure, while in Portland, I didn't read far enough and made a post I later deleted because if I would have kept reading, I would have seen Jan address it). She stuck up for me (and others) over chat logs being kept. She looked out for people over potential Pastwatch exclusiveness. She listened when I was upset at Josh the first time. Even though I guess people thought there should be a vote on Techs, to be fair to Josh, she appointed the capable people who volunteered - the smart thing because anyone could be a mod, all the people who were up for it would have done fine, but the same is not the case for techs. She has done things right! But 100% of the time? No. She's human, just like me.

Anyway, if Kelly wants to join in the telling me what's wrong with me pile, I freely invite her. I'm reading until Jan stuff is taken care of. I'll even likely agree that I'm a terrible person, so it's not like I'll get further offended. Basically, anyone is welcome to think ill of me; they have my blessing. It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt but the damage is done, I feel like no one is willing to talk to me to tell me how to fix the hurt I caused, except to expect me to bend over backwards and say chat didn't hurt and site stuff didn't hurt and the hurt they caused was all justified and reasonable when mine was not. I can't do that. Sorry for hurting, not sorry for my point of view.

[Young Val]

Anyway, if Kelly wants to join in the telling me what's wrong with me pile, I freely invite her.

No. I don't think anything is wrong with you.

[Jayelle]

I'm going to respond to this, but on my own time. Don't take any presence in the chat today nor posts in other threads as ignoring this one.

[Gravity Defier]

I would like to apologize for yelling at people in the Meta thread; Chris, Josh, Nomi, and Shannon specifically for trying to help at all, to Jan for not giving her time or leeway in her decision making, and to Noodle, for diminishing his efforts and willingness to help. You'd think I'd have revolutionized the practive of apologizing but I'll keep it simple. I'm sorry. I hurt most of you (Shannon says she wasn't but is still owed an apology) and it was, as usual, undeserved.

The F-bomb was horrifically over the line and I'm afraid the damage that caused, the hurt that gave Jan, can't be healed.


I'm sorry to those in chat, who feel blindsided by what I said. Caspian, Jan, Kirsten, Noodle, Kelly, Helen. You owe me nothing by way of apology. We'll have to agree to disagree on my issues with that. That doesn't make my apology less sincere, it just means the problem is mine, not yours, you deserved none of my ire over that. I'm glad you're friends. Enjoy it.


It kind of broke my heart that no one stood up and asked that a main page conversation wait until I got back from what was initially a short-term break. I said in Bob I needed it, people got "excited" about it on my behalf, but all I saw was that I was being excluded, that no one thought to wait. That was wrong.

When five posts went by, after Syphon gave not one reminder but two about the work Wil and I did, and no one mentioned it or acknowledged, it felt like being further ignored. I wasn't patient there and didn't do the polite thing and quote to ask "Yeah, guys, what about those?" That was wrong.

I handled everything entirely wrong. My pride is bruised from lifelong abuse, so I am not above stating I was very wrong, in most of my interactions on this board for the past month.


Jan is very, very, understandably and justifiably hurt (as are others but I feel like she got the brunt of it all) and I am devastated over that. Truly, beyond words, heartbroken. I did/do consider her a friend; I thought somehow things could be kept separate, that my being part of the board conversation in some ways, in more "official" ways, could be kept apart from my being her friend. I failed so very much.

The boy is, I don't know, naive enough to think it's okay for me to jump into conversation about the main page stuff, right now, while it's active and making progress, so I don't further feel exlcuded. I, on the other hand, agree with a few others, maybe a lot of others, that the best thing I can do right now is leave. They think it needn't be permanent, however, and I disagree. (For the record, for what it's worth, I think Taal has raised some great points and ideas and I hope those are explored.)

I love you all dearly. Very, very much. I wouldn't get so stupidly emotional and over the top dramatic if I didn't; not that that is at all an excuse. But you have to understand, as much love as I have for this place, when I feel excluded, no matter how small,irrational, or silly that is, the negative feeling hits as hard as all the love I have. Equal and opposite or something, perhaps that's a bad comparison.

People have been expressing concern for my mental health, which is fair enough. No one feels this strongly if they aren't, I don't know, unhealthily attached I guess or dealing with serious issues off the board.

For the record, my life is exactly as s***** now as it always has been. So, if it makes anyone at all feel better, I do promise I'll look into help. I can't guarantee it will happen as soon as some would like but I've never thought I didn't need help and I have sought it from time to time.

I am doing my best to heal the hurt I caused. It was so out of proportion, it feels like the hurt is insurmountable, that I lost a lot of trust because of that that I may never get back. Wouldn't be undeserved if that's the case. I don't want people to think I'm wanting to leave to avoid taking responsibility for fixing that. I'm wanting to leave because I have always tried, despite appearances, to do what is best for the board as a whole. In this case, it also happens to be what is best for me.

I'm waiting on Jan. I am here in the meantime, to be reminded I was wrong if that's what you want, to accept blame, to offer apologies, to help heal where and how I can.

[Jayelle]

In the end, I don't even know how to respond to all of this. I am still pretty hurt by the f-bomb and by the assumptions of malicious intent when there were none. But, honestly, I'll get over that.

About making the main site: I made it clear from the beginning that I didn't have a whole lot of interest in that. My focus was getting the boards to a better place and possibly moving domains (which is still on the table, but here is not the place to hash that out). I am not Ami, I'm not going to abandon pweb, but I'm also not going to apologize for taking time to respond to things. Friendly reminders are so much nicer then assuming that I'm ignoring things on purpose.

I think it's fine that people disagree with me, but in the end, there are decisions made that not everyone likes.

About this:

I did chat in AIM chat every so often, just as did in this chat, but I always, always, put the board first.

I feel like I'm being told to apologize for using the chat, that I should be having my conversations on the board instead. It's fine if you want to post on the board about your life and be very open with Bob. I don't and I never have. I enjoy having a chat, because it's a conversation. I am getting to know people in a different way, but I do not feel it has changed my posting habits at all. If anything, it has made me a little more free to talk openly on the board. Pweb has always, always gone through cycles of posting and not posting. I think the "Shiny" thread hit the nail on the head. There was a flurry of posts with an exciting new space, but then they died down again. It happens. It's not personal.

And this:

Jan, my issue has not been with you.

Then, who exactly is it with? Everyone? This smacks of paranoia. There is no reason to suspect that we are all ganging up to ignore or malign your efforts. Why would we?

It's upsetting to you that people are having chat conversations without you. I get that, but I don't understand why you would want them to stop. Should I be upset that pwebbers send texts to each other when I don't have a cell phone? Or should I find other ways of connecting with them?

I appreciate your last post with apologies. I wish I could have responded to what you said in the first post in private, but I suppose you wanted everyone to be witness.

In the end, I just will never understand how this all went down, but I move on, because that's what I do.

[Gravity Defier]

I feel like I'm being told to apologize for using the chat

I'm not telling you that.

And this:

Jan, my issue has not been with you.

Then, who exactly is it with?

I thought I put it more clearly in the last post I made that the issue was with me. If not, Jan, the issue was with me.

It's upsetting to you that people are having chat conversations without you. I get that, but I don't understand why you would want them to stop.

I don't.

Should I be upset that pwebbers send texts to each other when I don't have a cell phone?

I don't know; I can't tell you how to feel. I can say, for me, out of sight is out of mind/doesn't exist thing applies. That I can see that interaction and know I couldn't be a part of it is not the same as having an idea that Pwebbers may be contacting each other privately. Even if they are, it's typically two people, having a private interaction, and not a group of active posters. When chat was off the board, via AIM, I had no issues with chat. It never looked like neglect in the same way, if you want my honest feelings.

I wish I could have responded to what you said in the first post in private, but I suppose you wanted everyone to be witness.

I was rather upset yesterday, in a completely different way than today. It's not that I wanted witnesses so much as to explain why I was being stupid in a way that meant less one-on-one. Because I hurt a lot of people. It was the easy way, probably wrong. I'm sorry I took the option of privacy away from you.

I move on, because that's what I do.

I am glad to hear at least that much. You, and others, have my contact information if you wish to add anything. I'll be bowing out now. Thank you for responding.

[mr_thebrain]

well, i for one am unhurt. i'm just happy that mention of me made it into your post!

anyway you can say and do and feel however you want. i wish you didn't feel so unhappy and i hope you feel better soon regardless of whether you come back, stay, or leave altogether. although i hope its just a short break. hurt feelings aside i think there will always be a home for you here and that you are well loved here. sorry if i've helped contribute to your unhappiness in any way.

i also hope that this whole thing doesn't keep you from visiting with me when you make it to chicago, i do look forward to that!