Occupy Wall Street

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Occupy Wall Street

Postby Caspian » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:23 am

I am fascinated by this ongoing protest. Anyone else keeping track of developments? Anyone occupying anything? Anyone deeply offended on behalf of Wall Street traders?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Young Val » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:26 am

I've been reading about it pretty regularly. I know a lot of people in New York who've joined the protests. Until recently mainstream media was sort of ignoring the whole thing entirely. I have mixed thoughts about it.

I think we should have let the banks fail.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:11 pm

Given my career, I monitor it pretty closely. We have some local groups preparing for an Occupy movement, here. My biggest problem is that, from what I've seen, many of these people don't really understand what they're protesting. The "movement" has become, in a sense, whatever you want it to be. It seems that anarchists have teamed up with socialists to "take down the system" without realizing that both groups are on opposite sides of the end-game battle.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Young Val » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:13 pm

My biggest problem is that, from what I've seen, many of these people don't really understand what they're protesting.

So very true.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Wind Swept » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:14 pm

The main street bridge between Fargo and Moorhead is the prime demonstration location here, and it's right outside my window. Most demonstrations feature at least a few people holding signs that read, "Honk if you support ______."

The Occupy Wallstreet demonstration on Saturday garnered a near constant stream of car horns and featured the most demonstrators I've ever seen on the bridge simultaneously.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Petra456 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:15 pm

My biggest problem is that, from what I've seen, many of these people don't really understand what they're protesting.
This describes the protesters we have in Olympia. They had someone down there interviewing people and, I kid you not, when asked why they were here they replied "we have a team working on that answer and we'll get back to you.".
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Mich » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

I think the reason for all of the "we're not sure what we're protesting" response is that people know, or at least believe they know, that they're getting cheated. They see statistics about tax breaks and income "losses" and such and they want that to change, and they know that protesting is the way to do it, especially if they get a major international movement against it. They just have no easy, sound-bite-y way to say what they want to happen. It's definitely very interesting stuff. I can't decide if my sympathy for the movement is due to me actually agreeing with it, though, or just my utter distaste for the rude, callous things people say against the protesters. It's such a big movement (and poorly-aimed one, at that) that it's difficult to say blanket statements at all that are true.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:22 pm

I don't think the movement will ever be able to articulate what it wants, precisely because of the competing interests of those involved. They all want change, but they don't want the same change.

I don't think it helps that many of the people I've seen advocating for specific changes (through blogs, interviews, etc.) don't really understand the situation or the basic impacts of their proposals. See, e.g., the demand for raising minimum wage in order to reduce unemployment, as if higher labor costs relative to capital increases demand for labor, rather than suppresses it.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Also, I'm leaving this, here. Because I pretty much love Remy.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Caspian » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:00 am

See, my inclination is to respond to that Bob Dylan parody by quoting Bob Dylan: "Don't criticize what you can't understand".
It's not "noob" to rhyme with "boob". It's "newbie" to rhyme with "boobie".

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:34 am

See, my inclination is to respond to that Bob Dylan parody by quoting Bob Dylan: "Don't criticize what you can't understand".
Useful advice for many of the protesters.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Satya » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:58 am

See, my inclination is to respond to that Bob Dylan parody by quoting Bob Dylan: "Don't criticize what you can't understand".
Useful advice for many of the protesters.
Except that almost no one (or literally no one) really understands most of the complex issues of note today; modern economics, global diplomacy, etc. "Don't criticize what you don't understand" thus becomes "don't criticize anything, because there's little chance in hell of ever really understanding it anyways."

You could say something more along the lines of "have a basic understanding of the general issues before formulating an opinion," but that of course just doesn't have the same ring (nor is as effective-sounding a brush off.)

I in particular am enjoying the images of out-of-work PhDs, WWII vets and active soldiers and other respectable, non-hippie-pot-smoking-patchouli-burning "anarchists and socialists teaming up to take the system down" at the protests the most.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Caspian » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:30 pm

I'd say that for Dylan you could probably rephrase it as "Don't criticize without trying to understand".
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:10 pm

I have had mixed feelings about this protest, but I was starting to become cautiously optimistic... until today when I read news reports of violent protests (carbombings, etc) in some areas. I am now officially against these protests. Still on the fence about the goals.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby locke » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:34 am

saw this posted elsewhere and made me laugh http://i.imgur.com/wDOu1.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

some interesting wage data from ssa

http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Platypi007 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:36 am

They started an "Occupy Columbia" thing this past Saturday. I'm not sure how many people were there on Saturday, last night in the cold and rain there were about a dozen people in front of the statehouse when I drove past about 10pm.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Wind Swept » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:03 am

This is my favorite image from the Occupy Movement thus far:
Image
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:04 am

I wish my local Occupy movement would exchange their signs about Citizens United for signs that say, "I haven't read Citizens United and have no idea what it says."
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:40 pm

Double post.

Image
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby zeroguy » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:32 pm

I saw some "Occupy X" protesters today! It was actually a little depressing; there were like 5 of them... what really confused me is that they were just on a random street corner; they weren't in front of a building of any significance or anything. I thought they were holding signs for a car wash or something, before I saw what was on the signs and realized that it was like 50 degrees out.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Caspian » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:27 pm

Someone threw a homemade chemical bomb into the Occupy Maine crowd.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby LilBee91 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:37 am

I haven't really been following any of this because I don't understand what all the protesting is supposed to accomplish anyway. But I like Cracked's take on it. While I often heard the "go to college or you'll flip burgers the rest of your life" line, I was fully aware that a college degree didn't guarantee you your dream job. Then again, my whole family is a bunch of nerds who got degrees that tend to have better job outlooks--IT, engineering, accounting--so I sometimes have a hard time understanding why people choose the majors they do (even though I know you have to follow your interests and for a lot of jobs it doesn't matter quite so much what you studied in college).
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:50 pm

I sometimes have a hard time understanding why people choose the majors they do.
The conversations and meditations I've had trying to come up with an answer to this...you know, Shannon, I trust you enough that if I were face to face with you, I'd try my damnedest to help myself understand so I could in turn help you understand. It's something I would not and do not speak to just anyone about because they have these wonderfully condescending attitudes that get old so, so fast. The only comfort I usually get with those people is being mean to them, in my head, by thinking very loudly about how ugly and boring the world would be if we were all just like them. But that's uncharitable, unkind, and defensive.


As for the article, numbers three and five seemed a bit familiar around these parts. *sigh*
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby LilBee91 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:49 pm

I too am grateful everyone isn't science/engineering/technology folks. My roommate is a sociology major and I love the random discussions she brings up--we don't get anything like that in my classes. So I do at least somewhat understand why people choose their majors--different things interest us and I wouldn't have it any other way. Where I get unfairly condescending is wondering what job they thought the could get with that degree. On the other hand, I know many people who want a college education and degree even though their desired career doesn't require it.

But I digress. People's motives fascinate me. If diseases weren't so cool, I'd probably be studying psychology. =]
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:20 pm

Where I get unfairly condescending is wondering what job they thought the could get with that degree.

This I can address now.

I didn't think I could get anything specific with my degree, that is, I had no goal or dream job in sight when I picked mine. My major adviser asked me during a talk, "Don't you want to know what jobs you can get if you choose this major?" I guess that's an important question. ;)

Though, truth be told, it wouldn't have mattered what major I chose (that I was interested in), none would have afforded me a better chance at good paying, more "respectable" jobs/careers; I was never going to be a professional scientist in any "hard" science field, from astronomy to zoology. I could have, probably, but I would have completely collapsed under the pressure of needing to do well at something that holds no interest to me at the levels/depths I'd be expected to go. Intro [whatever] or [whatever] 101? Great! It gives me a glimpse, which is all I ever wanted out of a lot of things.

Since college wasn't something I really understood the concept of beforehand and thus a place I didn't really want to be (first generation in my immediate family, applied because my teachers and parents told me to, chose the school in the first place because my favorite teacher went there, and experienced complete and utter culture shock upon arrival), I went with what I wanted to learn -emphasis because I feel like this is the part people give me so much crap about.

"Why, Alea, couldn't you be more like me and be interested in something that is also financially lucrative? Or, barring that, why couldn't you have just sucked it up and been miserable in your education? I mean, I got to enjoy my college experience because my major will set me up for life but you, if you couldn't naturally be interested and happy, you should have suffered through it for your own good."

That actually comes quite often from people who come from families where college is old hat, where they grew up with resources my family didn't (namely top notch schools and money). Though, it's almost worse when it comes from people from similar backgrounds as mine because they start perpetuating the idea that it's laziness or stupidity on my part or higher than average intelligence on theirs.

Not everyone is like this. But the ones who are make my life rather miserable.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby neo-dragon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:20 pm

The whole topic of choosing majors and people's approach to post-secondary education in general before, during, and after the fact is something that could be discussed in the education thread.

Just sayin'... 8)
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Wind Swept » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:28 pm

The whole topic of choosing majors and people's approach to post-secondary education in general before, during, and after the fact is something that could be discussed in the education thread.

Just sayin'... 8)
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Caspian » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:30 pm

Police pepper spraying and arresting students at UC Davis
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:43 pm

Having been maced myself, it's hard to watch someone else get sprayed when they are seemingly just sitting there. Although just to play the other side, they were probably warned several times that that would happen if they didn't get up and move.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby EvilCaspian » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:15 pm

Pft. Dirty hippies had it coming.
It's not newbie to rhyme with "boobie". It's NO0b, to rhyme with "boob".

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Wil » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:18 am

Having been maced myself, it's hard to watch someone else get sprayed when they are seemingly just sitting there. Although just to play the other side, they were probably warned several times that that would happen if they didn't get up and move.
Yeah, except pepper spraying non-violent protesters is illegal, even if they were told to move.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Ela » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:01 am

Pweb member since 2000

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:36 am

FYI: the case cited doesn't stand for what Wil thinks it does.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Wil » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:41 am

FYI: the case cited doesn't stand for what Wil thinks it does.
And that is why I hate law! :lol:

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:29 pm

And that is why I hate law! :lol:
To be fair, the case is a little complex (partially because it was remanded down by SCOTUS to reconsider in light of the holding in a different case). That said, the legal issue in the case was never whether it's unconstitutional for the police to use pepper spray on non-violent protesters. It was solely about whether or not the case could actually go to trial.

Basically, the lower court said the police had qualified immunity and entered judgment in their favor without trial. The appeals court said (both in the cited case and in the case decided before SCOTUS required reconsideration) that the issue of whether or not the police had immunity depended on a factual determination. Because you view all facts in the light most favorable to the non-moving party (in this case, the protesters), they concluded that, in that context, a reasonable jury could conclude that the use of pepper spray could be considered excessive force and that the case should proceed to trial.

The court acknowledged that using pepper spray could, in certain situations, be considered excessive force. But that court has said (both before that case and since) that the use of pepper spray to bring someone they're arresting under control is reasonable absent certain specific facts (e.g., it is reasonable if the person does not surrender and is not rendered helpless). (It's also somewhat important to note that the court's holding only applies in nine states.)

That doesn't mean it's morally right, that it doesn't violate the Constitution under these particular facts (I haven't kept up with the situation, so I don't know enough of the facts to opine), or that it doesn't violate other state and local laws or rules. It just means that it's a little more complicated than originally suggested.
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