Love

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Love

Postby daPyr0x » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:43 pm

Loaded question: What is love to you?

I'll start...

I just got back from a short vacation which I used to think a lot about this...about exactly what love is and....similar things.

I've realized a few things, not the least of which being that (much to my dismay) there are many different 'levels' of love. Even outside of friend versus relationship love there's more to it than just "love or not love." In my last relationship, I was loved. Very much so. I did not love in the same way, however. What I had was much stronger, much more solid. True love, as it were. Or, as so eloquently put in Mr. Deeds, "that forever kind of love." That's what real love is, to me. And until recently, that's all that that word actually meant to me. I now see that the English language is rather restricted on words to hit that in between area. For the purposes of what I'm writing, however, I use "love" to mean "true love."

And it's really not describable. Any description that I can type out in a webforum would not do it justice. It isn't just a feeling. It isn't an emotion. It isn't a lot of the common things people describe it to be. It's bigger than that.

It's a way of life, for lack of a better explanation. It's the complete willingness to totally let go of everything that you hold dear, everything that matters to you, for the better of that love.

It is strong. It is above anything and everything else in the physical world, and it can endure anything thrown at it. Nothing else really matters other than that love.

As the song says, "Love can move mountains." Love goes above everything in the physical world, even the mountains that tower above the earth. Mutual, true love can move mountains. It just doesn't have to.

Love doesn't expire. It doesn't run out, it doesn't stray, and it doesn't go away. You can't "get over" true love.

That's what love is to me.

True love, and the pursuit of true love, give meaning to my life. All other things are far too fickle, to me, to devote myself to; and true love goes above and beyond those.

Okay, I've spilled my beans. I'm curious to know how others here feel, and how others differ.
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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:17 pm

I think that love can change. That's what makes it real. It's unjust to anyone who has ever been in love to say that it doesn't count because it didn't last. Life changes. Things can change you. The person you were ten years ago might have been madly in love with one person, but now, after having changed as much as you have in ten years, you are in love with someone else.

It doesn't mean less because it doesn't last.
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Postby Nicholas » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:52 pm

You know what I truly believe you just hit the nail on the head. I could not have put it better my self.

I also believe thought that "true love" can be experienced with your children. It is still just as strong and hopefully mutual, but different. The first time you look at your child, in their eyes, there is an instant true love.

Still just as you said the English language lacks enough words for the never-ending levels of love.
~Nick

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Postby daPyr0x » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:20 pm

I think that love can change. That's what makes it real. It's unjust to anyone who has ever been in love to say that it doesn't count because it didn't last. Life changes. Things can change you. The person you were ten years ago might have been madly in love with one person, but now, after having changed as much as you have in ten years, you are in love with someone else.

It doesn't mean less because it doesn't last.
Love can change, I was not arguing this as it would be stupid to do so. However I do not believe that true love ever goes away. You can fall out of love with a person, but not true love. It changes, it evolves, you change and evolve too.

To me, though, if you "fell out of love" with a person (or, *cough* went and cheated on them and wouldn't leave the person you cheated with to get back with them *cough*); you were not in true love with them. You may have loved them at one point or another, but it's not true love. It will pass.

As far as the children comment goes; familial love, whether with your children, your siblings, or your parents, is a very different ballgame whatsoever. The feelings that you have for your children (I hope....) are far different from the ones you have for your mate. If not...well...what's the reverse of the oedipus(sp?) complex?
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:40 pm

Errr... Incestuous pedophilia?
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Postby Young Val » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:57 pm

i find it impossible to verbalize a definition of love.

the closest i could come would be to give examples of acts of love. or lists of people or things i love. or lists of qualities i love about certain people or things.


but as for defining love itself, what it is and how it works. where it comes from and what it does and why?

that's impossible for me.


it's enough for me to simply know it when it's present in my life.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby Mahatma » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:29 pm

I'm looking for a quote from Yoko Ono about how once you love a person, you can never not love them, but I can't find it. Anyone have the Playboy Interviews handy?
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Postby Nicholas » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:46 pm

I can't say that I have any of those interviews on hand right now.

I know that there is a Huge difference between you love of family and your love of your mate. I was just saying that they are both a type of "true loves"

Val has the right idea though it can’t be told what it feels like. I think you will never truly know what "true love" (of your mate) is until you have felt it.

i for one was never a believer in love of this type until Kevv left for basic. ("absence make the heart grow fonder" or at least shows you what you had)
~Nick

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Postby wizzard » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:00 pm

My view of love (actually, of life in general) is heavily influenced by Emanuel Swedenborg. He wrote that true love has 3 parts: 1)An object outside of oneself (meaning selfish love isn't true love) 2)A desire to make that object happy from yourself and 3)A desire to become one with the object of your love.

(Incidentally, this is why the human race was created, because God is infinite love, but according to the first rule of love, He needed something outside of Himself to love, hence Humans)

As far as relationship love, Swedenborg actually wrote an entire book on the specific type of love that married partners share (de Amore Conjugiali).

The end goal of true love is to have 2 people become so conjoined to each other that they have, in essence, one soul. You see your partner's happiness as your own happiness, your partner's sadness as your own sadness. True love involves connection on every level of being, from physical to spiritual.
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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:04 pm

Val has the right idea though it can’t be told what it feels like. I think you will never truly know what "true love" (of your mate) is until you have felt it.
Of course, people often fancy themselves "in love" when they're really nothing of the sort, so there's no winning, is there?

"It's impossible to know what true love is until you experience it. Buuuut, that might not be it, either."



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Postby Nicholas » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:30 pm

"It's impossible to know what true love is until you experience it. Buuuut, that might not be it, either."
Entirely true

so in the end how do we know if that love is true?
~Nick

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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:38 pm

We don't.

Actually, if you can go through what Phedre and Joscelin did, I think you can assume that you really are in love. Otherwise, though, just cross your fingers.



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Postby Young Val » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:43 pm

eh, i disagree.

i think you can know.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby Nicholas » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:45 pm

how? isn't it possible that you may believe that you are, then you cheat or you "fall out of love" then how did you know?
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:51 pm

Love is like oxygen, love is a many splendored thing, love lifts us up where we belong, all you need is love!


Okay, seriously now.

My definition and views of love vary by mood, or more accurately, my current life situation. In other words, I can't describe it or be confident that I've figured out what it means to even just myself.
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Postby Young Val » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:37 pm

how? isn't it possible that you may believe that you are, then you cheat or you "fall out of love" then how did you know?

i've never cheated, and i've never fallen out of love. i know because i know. i'm not saying that EVERYONE knows. but i think it's possible to know. sure, it's also possible to be wrong, i guess. for example: my little sister claims that she was "in love" with our mutual friend, Dan. they had a fleeting, purely physical relationship (meaning that, though she did have feelings for him, he did not have any for her, and their interactions consisted solely of booty calls. no hanging out before or afterward, no phone calls, no nothing but the physical relationship). she believe she loved him.

personally, i think unrequited love is extremely rare. does it happen? yes. often? i don't believe so. did it happen to my sister? i don't know.



i also had an...admirer (eventually stalker) in high school. he claimed he loved me. i told him repeatedly that he was wrong. he couln't love me. he didn't know me. (this eventually led to me discussing him with both my therapist and the local police. things with this guy got extremely out of hand). now, i am prone to believe that what he thought was "love" was more along the lines of an obsession. but do i know if that's true? no. only he knows.


love is personal. i believe you can only understand it on an incident-by-incident basis. and that only the people directly involved can fully understand it or qualify it.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:13 pm

how? isn't it possible that you may believe that you are, then you cheat or you "fall out of love" then how did you know?
I'm actually largely with Kelly--I was being cynical at the time, but I think it is possible to tell whether or not you're in love with someone, especially as you gain life experience.

I have been in several relationships, and while I have wanted to be in love in all of them, I have always been able to tell, deep down, when I was just lying to myself.

I also don't know that I agree that cheating necessarily means that one is not in love. I think that largely depends on the circumstances.



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Postby Jayelle » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:13 pm

Love is a choice.
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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:19 pm

personally, i think unrequited love is extremely rare. does it happen? yes. often? i don't believe so.
Yes. I haven't really touched on this, I don't think, but I completely agree. I think that unrequited love does happen, but I think that it's incredibly difficult to fall in love with someone--and really be in love with them--unless you know them in a romantic context. There's something about the mutual romance that just... makes it easier, and lends itself to really falling in love.

I can't even articulate it. But yes.



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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:22 pm

Love is a choice.
I also agree with this. I don't think that attraction is a choice, but I think that love is.



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Postby Hegemon » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:29 pm

Love is a choice.
I also agree with this. I don't think that attraction is a choice, but I think that love is.
I don't agree with either of you. I can say with a lot of certainty, that if given the choice I would not ever have loved anyone ever, in any capacity.

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Postby neo-dragon » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:35 pm

Yeah, I don't think that love is a choice any more than fear or anger is a choice. We don't get to choose our emotions, only how we act on them. If we did choose, we would always be happy. :D

And at the end of the day, love is simply an emotion.

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Postby Jayelle » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:36 pm

Love is more then an emotion. It's the choice in the sense that, long after the lovey dovey feelings fade (from say, a marriage), there is still the choice to be in love.
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Postby neo-dragon » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:42 pm

No, there's a choice to stay together and treat each other kindly and be intimate and whatnot. Well, I guess you could call that love, but I say that love is the actual feeling that makes you want to do those things, and you can't decide to turn that off or on.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:47 pm

That's what I call "infatuation," Jason. Love is what keeps you going when seriously all you want to do is kill each other.
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Postby Jayelle » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:57 pm

^what she said.
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Postby neo-dragon » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:58 pm

*Gasp*

Could it be that I don't know the difference between love and infatuation? Ah well, I'll get it figured out sooner or later. No biggie for the time being.

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Postby daPyr0x » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:59 pm

Love isn't those feelings...

I used to think it was. I used to think the warm fuzzy feelings and all were love, but they're not. Those pass, Love does not. There's only one "feeling" that I can really say I'd attribute to love, and I'm not going to go into it here.

neo: I somewhat disagree... I chose to pick up the phone, stay up all night, and help as best I could when Nicole went through her eating issues. I chose to fly myself down there as often as I did, and I chose to spend as much money as I did on her. I chose to stick around when everyone said we'd never make it; I chose to get engaged, and I chose to still answer the phone when she calls despite who she's f****** now.

Fuzzy feelings dissipate. Romantics can fade. People get old, get into ruts and habits. In 20 years do you think you'll get the same allover warm fuzz from saying or hearing "I love you" as you did the first time? That stuff passes. It's only there to help push ourselves deeper into that relationship trying to attain more of that feeling.
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Postby neo-dragon » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:08 pm

Love isn't those feelings...

I chose to pick up the phone, stay up all night, and help as best I could when Nicole went through her eating issues. I chose to fly myself down there as often as I did, and I chose to spend as much money as I did on her. I chose to stick around when everyone said we'd never make it; I chose to get engaged, and I chose to still answer the phone when she calls despite who she's f****** now.
So do those choices define your love? Would you not love her if you hadn't have made those choices, or would you not have made those choices if you didn't love her? These are serious questions, by the way. I'm not trying to make a point or anything.

*edit to add*

Actually, do you know what love really is? A handy little product of evolution that ensures that we pass our genes on. It doesn't always work, but that's what it's there for.

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Postby daPyr0x » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:19 pm

Both, really. Sort of. Do keep in mind I am referring to what I've called "true love". It is possible to love without how these decisions came about; however I don't believe it would be true love, at least not at that time.

I chose to stick it out through the eating disorder, chose to fly down the way I did and sacrifice for her like that, because I loved her. Had I not loved her the way that I do, I would not have made these choices.

She needed me to help her through the disorder, to see her as often as I did, and to sacrifice how I did. Had I not done those for her, I would not have loved her, or at least as much as I do.
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Postby anonshadow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:19 pm

...
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Postby jotabe » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:05 am

I don't think love can change. When it's love.
But loving someone is not at all the same as "being in-love with someone". Being in-love is temporary. It can last more or less. It's the passion of the start, a new beginning, the emotion of the novelty of the new person. That causes a wish to stay with that person all the time, a wish to belong to that person and for that person to belong to you. But that emotion is bound to wear off, simply because we don't have an infinity source of emotional energy (if we could stay in-love with someone forever, we would wear off ourselves).
If something remains after being in-love, that is love. Caring for the other person. Being able to sacrifice your own well being for the other person well being. That is love. And that cannot change.

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Postby AnthonyByakko » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:34 am

Dopamine, oxytocin, neuro-peptides.

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Postby jotabe » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:11 am

Dopamine, oxytocin, neuro-peptides.
That's "how", not "what" :wink:
Science explains "how", not "what" or "why"... because essences and ultimate causes are things that meaningless from a scientific point of view.

Btw, you left out endorphines, pheromones... and countless other chemicals that take part in the "romantic love" 8)

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Postby AnthonyByakko » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:26 am

Dopamine, oxytocin, neuro-peptides.
That's "how", not "what" :wink:
Science explains "how", not "what" or "why"... because essences and ultimate causes are things that meaningless from a scientific point of view.

Btw, you left out endorphines, pheromones... and countless other chemicals that take part in the "romantic love" 8)
Neuro-peptides, oxytocin and dopamine are love. That feeling is these chemicals. You're putting the cart before the horse - these chemicals certainly are "how" the feeling of love occurs in a human body, but as the cause of the feeling, they are also "why." What you may be referring to is the psychological trigger for the production and release of said chemicals. To claim that because it is not specifically known in science what stimuli will trigger any given person's chemical production means that "love" is some kind of ineffable, spiritual or otherwise supernatural construct is a logical fallacy. As we approach more and more precise neurological, physiological science, the triggers as well will be known more specifically.


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