Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
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Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:18 am

*sigh* I've decided to move this to a new topic since it's getting insanely off topic in the "In the beginning..." thread.
My minor is in Biblical Studies. I know what I'm talking about and I can bet that I know alot more about the Bible then you (eriador and Anthony).
So, the proof that you know more about the Bible is that you study the Bible? Nice.

I'll take that bet, by the way. The passages in question were Leviticus chapter 17. While irrelevant by modern standards, this is the kind of thing people were stoned to death for by your forgiving, merciful god.
To begin with, the Bible as a whole presents both a forgiving, merciful God and a God who judges. It is a balence between God judging us for sinfulness and God having mercy on us. The whole Bible tells us of God's character- as one who hates sin and one who loves humanity.

There are people who call the Bible a guidebook, I disagree with them. There are certainly parts that are a guidebook, but much of it tells a story. Leviticus is part of the story of the Israelites being led out of slavery in Egypt and into the Promised Land. One of the tribes of Israel are called the Levites, the book of Leviticus is written for them. They are the preistly tribe who did not inheiret land (like the other 11 tribes), instead they are placed in charge. So, much of what is in Leviticus is instructions on how to be a preist (such as their duties when it came to making sacrifices). Also the duty of a preist was determining what was "clean" and "unclean".
If we take a step back and look at the things that are "clean"and "unclean", it's not that God is forbidding them for the sake of being mean, it is clearly for the good of the people.

Consider this: a group of people are in the desert with no food laws. They get some shellfish and eat a bit of it the first day, a bit of it the second day, and by the third day it's been sitting out in the hot sun (remember: no refrigeration in those days!), people start to get sick! All of the animals that are forbidden are generally ones that would make them sick.

There's also alot of talk about disease. If someone has a rash or is oozing, they go to the preist and are put in isolation. So it doesn't spread! There are laws about handwashing and bodywashing. These may seem strange in the context of "God tells us to wash our hands when we touch someone who's sick", but when you take a step back, it's just a way of keeping them alive.

For your specific passage, Lev. 17, "Prohibitions against eating blood", this is once again a protective measure. It is more likely that they would get sick eating the blood of an animal then eating it's meat.

It is possible you meant Lev. 18 (about sexual practices) instead of 17, let me know.

Another note about the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy: these were the laws for a whole country. It is much like looking up the laws for the United States. Passages like "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" are because in say, a neighbouring country, it would be a life for an eye.
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Postby eriador » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:49 pm

Great start, I agree that most of what you said makes sense, assuming that the bible is a product of its times. However, food laws are a small part of Leviticus, and I'm mostly interested in the weird ones (like mixed fiber prohibitions). I can't think of an explaination for these. If anybody can, please fill me in.

*edited to remove stupid, sarcastic clauses that didn't contribute to this post's content, but rather to it's tone.*
Last edited by eriador on Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:49 pm

You know what? I don't know about that one. I do know that orthodox Jews still hold to that law while Christians do not. My guess is that it is about purity.
Here's a link to a Jewish explanation

I'm not going to pretend that I know everything about everything the bible. I'm not going to pretend that I don't grapple and struggle with passages in the bible.

My point in this is that you're not going to bring a law or a passage in the bible to my attention that is going to make me say "I can't believe that's in the Bible! My entire faith is shaken!" It's just not gonna happen.
And it's not because I'm just blindly following the bible, it's because I've studied and discussed and struggled with it before.


And PS. Check your attitude at the door, it's not welcome here.
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Postby eriador » Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:47 pm

Disclaimer: The following represents my opinion and is meant as a response to questions directed to me. Any comments seen as rude and/or sarcastic were not intended that way, but rather as an earnest response to questions. I acknowledge that my beleifs are highly incompatible with many religions, but I am not expressing them to convince anybody that their beliefs are wrong or convince anybody that mine are correct, but rather to help people understand what I hold to be true and why.

Again, any offensive content is not meant to be offensive, but rather reflects a misunderstanding of your beliefs. If you take offense, please explain why, and I will attempt to prevent it from happening again. I am happy to learn and will consider anything you say with an open mind.


That page you linked to contains some information about what they called "Shatnez" (the wearing of mixed fibers). However, their argument for it boils down to "it has no purpose but to bring us closer to God," which (to me) sounds like a bunch of BS to keep the people in line. Yes, on the surface, the bible may seem like a good, practical document, but it's the little things that open up holes. How could an omniscient being come up with something that on one hand is really practical (food laws), and on the other hand is acknowledged to make no sense (shatnez)?

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Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:09 pm

I'm not Jewish, and I can't attest for their beliefs.

I'm sure there were reasons for not mixing fibres similar to the food laws, it's just that they've been lost over time. That's why there are people who study the context and culture that the bible was written in.

I'm sorry to tell you, you're not poking holes in the Bible. If you think that it's BS, that's fine. But in terms of "keeping people in line", that's blatenly untrue. Christians are encouraged to and constantly question their faith. Trust me, I teach sunday school. I deal with questions all the time.

This is why people study the Bible and theology, so that questions about "little things" can be answered.
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Postby eriador » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:22 pm

Disclaimer: The following represents my opinion and is meant as a response to questions directed to me. Any comments seen as rude and/or sarcastic were not intended that way, but rather as an earnest response to questions. I acknowledge that my beleifs are highly incompatible with many religions, but I am not expressing them to convince anybody that their beliefs are wrong or convince anybody that mine are correct, but rather to help people understand what I hold to be true and why.

Again, any offensive content is not meant to be offensive, but rather reflects a misunderstanding of your beliefs. If you take offense, please explain why, and I will attempt to prevent it from happening again. I am happy to learn and will consider anything you say with an open mind.


Of course asking questions is encouraged. Otherwise it would look like it was mind control. Encouraging questioning is a great way to keep people in line. If they are encouraged to think in the right way, they will always come to the conclusion that their controllers want, and have the illusion of free will. It works quite well.
Yes, it sounds a bit like a conspiracy, but its not the topic anyway...

Back on topic, the people who put together the website you refered me to had surely studied " he context and culture that the bible was written in" and came to the conclusion that it's only purpose was to foster a closer personal relationship with God.

And I would love to look at the bible as well and find out about the little things.

P.S. I don't think I'm poking holes in anything, just pointing out the ones that are there.

P.P.S. maybe we should have a "Mind Control" thread... It seems to be a common theme, but I don't know I should. Tell me.

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Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:29 pm

You know, the only conclusion I can come to is that you know very little about
a) Christianity
and
b) Mind Control/Brainwashing.

So, I refuse to answer anymore of your assine comments about the combination of the two.
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Postby eriador » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:55 pm

In case you didn't notice, I made some specific comments that were on topic...

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Postby Taalcon » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:12 pm

Actually, I think 'separation from the world' is a highly useful and valuable key reason for some commandments, especially the dietery ones.

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Postby hive_king » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:17 pm

seperation from the world for the sole sake of being seperated? Is that what you're saying?
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Postby Caspian » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:48 am

The Jewish people are repeatedly instructed by God to be a people set apart (Num. 23:9, Gen 19:5). They are a holy nation, and "holy" means "set apart" or "separate".

As such, there were both inner--behavioural--signs and outer signs, like the clothes they wore and the food they ate, that made them different from the people around them. This served as a reminder to them and to their neighbors that they were set apart; God's chosen people.

With the coming of Jesus, Christians believe that God's covenant was extended to all people, and that the holiness of his people is no longer a matter of nation, and is instead a matter of relationship with God through Christ. But Christians still set themselves apart as a reminder, some in different ways than others.

Make sense?
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Postby VelvetElvis » Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:07 am

seperation from the world for the sole sake of being seperated? Is that what you're saying?


Not for the sole purpose of separation. It does say in the Bible that one cannot serve both God and mammon.
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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:07 am

After doing a little research, these just two of the explanations I came up with:

"God’s law to Israel stated: 'You must not wear mixed stuff of wool and linen together.' (Deut. 22:11) This probably was a prohibition against garments made from two kinds of yarn spun together. This may have been to emphasize in an illustrative way the importance of purity. It would serve to keep the Israelites distinct from surrounding peoples and nations, where such combination of yarns was allowable. Practical aspects were also involved. Since clothes were allowed to be made from only one type of yarn, merchants would be deterred from representing a garment as being made of one material when, in fact, other yarn had also been used. Clothes made of just one kind of yarn, rather than two, could be more easily cared for, since varying kinds of fabrics—like wool and linen—react differently when washed."-November 11, 1976 issue of Awake!

"Regarding this, the Encyclopaedia Judaica remarked: "The clothing of the priests was notably exempt from the prohibition of sha’atnez [a garment of two sorts of thread, NW]. Exodus 28:6, 8, 15 and 39:29 prescribe that various pieces be made of linen and colored wool interwoven. . . . This suggests that the general prohibition was grounded on the taboo character of such a mixture, pertaining exclusively to the realm of the sacred.'"-Encyclopaedia Judaica, Jerusalem, 1973, Vol. 14, col. 1213
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Re: Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Postby AnthonyByakko » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:46 am

*sigh* I've decided to move this to a new topic since it's getting insanely off topic in the "In the beginning..." thread.
Excellent. This is more what I was hoping for.
To begin with, the Bible as a whole presents both a forgiving, merciful God and a God who judges. It is a balence between God judging us for sinfulness and God having mercy on us. The whole Bible tells us of God's character- as one who hates sin and one who loves humanity.
Alright. Let's begin. I will try to avoid the trite, "God is good/religion is bad" angle, despite it's relevance to my belief. The Bible, "as a whole" does not present balance - not in the least. Unless you are attributing "judging" to the Old Testament and "merciful" to the new covenant made by Jesus Christ.

To start with, you describe God as one who "hates sin" and "loves humanity." While the nature of God (even through Biblical interpretation) is unknowable, we can hope that this is correct. However, this is not a conclusion one can draw from the Bible. I realize that a historical, cultural context must be associated with the Pentateuch, but some things transcend temporal differences. The slaughter of innocents, of women and children, from the days of the Hebrew migration to Manifest Destiny, are littered throughout history. The self-serving superiority of not just its masses of adherents, but its allegedly God-appointed leaders, is a suffocating sight.

I believe James Madison said it best; "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance: 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

This leads us back to my first statement, the trite yet true, 'religion is bad/God is good.' But to outsiders Jayelle, you are the example of your God. You and your church, and its leaders, and its practices and tenets are iconic of your deity. And you (and just about every other member) sits idly by (and has done so for 2,000 years) whilst the sacred name of God has been (ab)used to commit some of the most heinous and vicious crimes against humanity, second only to Communism. Even today, with the facade of a totally accepting, totally tolerant construct, the dead and dying hand of the church claws away at the progression of human society. Luckily for us, its money and power can no longer hide its clandestine attacks. From the destruction of documents regarding the witch trials in Protestant circles, to the destruction of ancient art depicting Jesus and his disciples enjoying red and white mushrooms, the church (in all its sects and incarnations) has consistantly acted one way with one hand and manipulated a public image with the other. Leviticus and the like are only surface-scratchings of an entrenched, viral social construct of control.

As humanity has evolved, ever slowly approaching more and more individualistic societies, the two primary prongs of collectivism (religion and government) have created ever more subtle and appealing forms with which to bring mankind back into the Dark Ages. Philosophical altruists and collectivists created Socialism/Communism, and religion created the "New" Christianity, both with the tenets of self-sacrifice and the juicy bait of good intentions. Today, this means vehement, vociferous attacks against stem-cell research, gay rights, safe-sex, abortion rights, drug-rights, and any and all social behaviors that are (at least in this country) supposed to be beyond the purview of religion. Yet you (at least, your counterparts in the States) not only accept this, but encourage it by voting into public office people who admittedly use religious beliefs in their governance. This is, then, not an attack on the belief in an almighty-God who created humanity in his likeness, but on the weakness, servility and ignorance of its adherents. From BS like WWJD's pop-Christianity, we see it blatantly; the facade of a "merciful god" showing what's beneath - a power hungry, bitter, angry, anti-life doctrine of self-sacrifice and vague altruism. A truly Christ-like faith would embrace the foundations of America - total freedom for all peoples.

So, in the end, this is less about mixed cloths and vague reasons for not eating shellfish in ancient times, but a pattern of behavior that these things show - the rejection of knowledge, of science, of learning and of living in exchange for the blind acceptance that the people you are told speak for God (remembering that they are the ones who told you this) already know everything you need to know and will tell you when you need to know it. Are some of the things they have said correct? Absolutely. They were right to tell their people that eating shellfish was a bad idea in the freakin' desert. But they told them they couldn't because it was "an abomination unto the LORD", not that "hey, that's gonna make you sick." A self-fulfilling prophecy! Since they wouldn't know (and would never know to think about/study it) it would seem to them that they got sick because God wanted them to, for violating his law.

But this is part of the point - there is no good when their is no choice. Like the modern two party system in America restricts the choices you have for governance, rigid religious constructs like Islam and Christianity don't make you "good" or "righteous", they just remove allegedly "bad" and 'evil' behavior from your available choices. Because when faced with eternal fire and brimstone (which in itself is quite merciful, for the billions throughout history who will have gone their according to Christianity ((see: native Americans, et cetera))), the "other" choice is the only one you take.

I would think that before looking in at the motes in the eyes of the rest of the world, the church should remove the plank from its own. To take down, to deconstruct the evil empire that has been created from its faith. Because not to do so makes each and every adherent a hypocrite, afraid to stand up to even its own faith. How can you judge, lest you judge yourself? To refuse to truly, critically examine the machinations of your church? I submit that Christianity has nothing to offer society before the Chimera built in its likeness is utterly destroyed. I would, additionally, posit that any effort by the faithful that is not directed towards purifying itself, is effort totally in vain, and effort against human progress.

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Re: Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Postby suminonA » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:57 am

This leads us back to my first statement, the trite yet true, 'religion is bad/God is good.'
Based on the whole of your previous post, you seem to “accept” God but to “reject” the Church (as in “keep the God but get rid of the Church”). That sounds intriguing.

I have a question though: Do you (royal you) think that the former could “survive” without the latter?

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Postby jotabe » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:21 am

Problem with Churches is that they rarely seem to be able to keep themselves from giving into the temptation of temporal power.

Maybe "organized religion=bad" isn't necesarily true, but...
"religion+power=very bad" is as true as it gets.

And, for power, i am not only (but also) talking about government. I am talking about exerting the power over people for a number of means (see scientology).

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Postby eriador » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:18 pm

and so organized religion is bad. having a church gives them power, leading to abuse.

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Re: Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Postby Jayelle » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:29 pm

The Bible, "as a whole" does not present balance - not in the least. Unless you are attributing "judging" to the Old Testament and "merciful" to the new covenant made by Jesus Christ.
That's a pretty big "unless"...cause that's exactly what I attribute.


As for all the other stuff...

Let's be honest. I agree with what you said. I won't deny that there has been some great evil done in the name of God. I won't deny that evil is still being done.


I would argue with your assumptions that all churches are alike - not all christians are republicans who oppose gay marriage and the like. This weekend at my church, a well known theologian (from Texas, no less)was quite critical of George Bush and his policies. Next year's speaker (for our annual lecture series) is a professor at MITtalking about Physics - and it won't be about how Christians should reject science.

If I am an example for my God and those who do evil are an example for my God, then there are also good examples from that pool as well! Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., Jean Vanier, St. Francis of Assisi... etc.

And there is much good that comes out of Christianity as well. While I can't deny that slavery was started under the guise of Christianity, so was Abolition! The same Christianity that the slave owners used to oppress is the same as the one that gave those slaves hope.
There are hundreds, thousands of organizations started by Christians: The Red Cross, World Vision, Christian Peacemaker Teams...to name a few.
Here's the thing - Christians don't deny that there's evil. The whole thing is that we are all sinners, none of us can escape that. We know we fall short, but that doesn't mean we give up. And that doesn't make it less true.
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Postby Young Val » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:07 pm

and so organized religion is bad. having a church gives them power, leading to abuse.

why must it follow that all those with power will abuse it?

i won't deny even momentarily that some in positions of power do certainly abuse it. but i don't think this applies to all those with power, or in leadership roles.
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Postby eriador » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:20 pm

name someone who hasn't :P

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Postby Young Val » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:32 pm

me.

i was the president of just about everything ever in high school, and i never once abused power or overstepped the limitations of my office.



you can't prove i did otherwise, hence my selection. i'm sure that were i to name any renowned person to ever hold a leadership position, you would find some way in which they "abused" power. then that leads us into another debate about how one defines abuse of power.
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Postby eriador » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:47 pm

i'll give that to you.

however, that brings up another debate: how much power corrupts? perhaps if you had had more power you would have abused it... maybe you were thinking too small...

but yeah. good point.

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Postby Young Val » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:54 pm

i don't like to think of the fact that i served my peers well while holding the offices they elected me to as "thinking too small."

and just because i was operating on a smaller scale doesn't mean i couldn't have still abused my power. i could have easily not payed my class dues, or not participate in required fundraisers and lied about it, or anything at all. sure, they're "small" offenses compared to things that leaders might do on a national or world scale, but it's a serious matter within the confines of those particular leadership roles.

i did not do such things, not because it wouldn't have been sweet to get out of knocking door to door and asking businesses to shell out what amounted to $150 for the spring musical, cause i would have LOVED to be absolved of that responsibility, but that's just not ethically acceptable to me.

to suggest that i didn't abuse power simply because there was not enough power to abuse does me a disservice. i did not abuse my power because i chose not to.


[edit]

however, all this is a total derail. my original point is that i don't understand how you can equate organized religion with abuse of power. you're missing an AWFUL lot of steps, there.
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Postby eriador » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:03 pm

personally, anything that convinces huge numbers of people of the existance of supernatural beings has abused its power.

but that has a lot to do with my religious views... :-)

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Re: Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Postby AnthonyByakko » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:18 am

This leads us back to my first statement, the trite yet true, 'religion is bad/God is good.'
Based on the whole of your previous post, you seem to “accept” God but to “reject” the Church (as in “keep the God but get rid of the Church”). That sounds intriguing.

I have a question though: Do you (royal you) think that the former could “survive” without the latter?

A.
I think that there are two possible outcomes of the impasse we as societies have reached. We will either embrace global Capitalism (the "royal" Capitalism, as in, the philosophy rather than societies' perception) or we will invariably slide towards collectivism, back to the Dark Ages. In the latter, it won't really matter what religions' do. In the former, it will have to survive without.

God (through Jesus) created the Church to help kick-start the "Message", to bring believers together to support and care for one another; a surrogate "family" until the Kingdom of God returned. Jesus wanted people to, individually and in their heart of hearts, choose the kind of behavior and action that he himself chose, not start a monolithic "Spiritual Oversight" beaurocracy - the world already had plenty of those.

The Church was not meant to be God's swift right arm of vengeance, as displayed in the witch trials, Crusades, et cetera. It was not meant to be God's "interpretor", to tell the people what he wanted. It was not meant to sell absolution to the highest bidder. It was not meant to oppose science, medicine and technology (all products of God's greatest gift to man - the human brain, the human ability to reason; i.e., sentience. As a side note, I've always believed that that's what Genesis means when it says man was created "in His image" - as God has no need for physical form, and I would assume has none, His "image" is his "likeness" - we are like him in that we are creative, conscious beings.)

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Re: Fine, then, let's talk about Leviticus.

Postby AnthonyByakko » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:25 am

The Bible, "as a whole" does not present balance - not in the least. Unless you are attributing "judging" to the Old Testament and "merciful" to the new covenant made by Jesus Christ.
That's a pretty big "unless"...cause that's exactly what I attribute.


As for all the other stuff...

Let's be honest. I agree with what you said. I won't deny that there has been some great evil done in the name of God. I won't deny that evil is still being done.


I would argue with your assumptions that all churches are alike - not all christians are republicans who oppose gay marriage and the like. This weekend at my church, a well known theologian (from Texas, no less)was quite critical of George Bush and his policies. Next year's speaker (for our annual lecture series) is a professor at MITtalking about Physics - and it won't be about how Christians should reject science.

If I am an example for my God and those who do evil are an example for my God, then there are also good examples from that pool as well! Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., Jean Vanier, St. Francis of Assisi... etc.
We've reached some common ground then. However, I would have problems with Mother Teresa. I mean, using your time on earth to help and care for the poor in destitute nations is a grand and noble idea, but self-abuse for the sake of some perceived brownie points in the afterlife is absurd. Jesus didn't want his followers walking around with stones in their shoes to prove some kind of spiritual might. I don't think he wanted people to sacrifice themselves, their whole lives, to it. Human beings were created as companions for God, not sacrificial lambs.
And there is much good that comes out of Christianity as well. While I can't deny that slavery was started under the guise of Christianity, so was Abolition! The same Christianity that the slave owners used to oppress is the same as the one that gave those slaves hope.
I have contention with that point as well - while the Christian Abolition movement (started by progressive Christians) assisted greatly, the end of slavery was an economic neccessity. Slavery was simply not viable in a Capitalistic society. And as technology improved and agriculture took a back seat to industry, it was tremendous new wealth in America (because of its freer society) that destroyed Slavery, as it did with child labor by improving "real" wages and limiting the hours necessary to work - parents could finally afford to send their children to school rather than 10 hours a day at a cottage industry.

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Postby hive_king » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:52 am

Anthony, what keeps pure Capitalism from leading to an abuse of power, in your philosophy?
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Postby AnthonyByakko » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:05 am

Anthony, what keeps pure Capitalism from leading to an abuse of power, in your philosophy?
Capitalisms primary tenet is that individual rights are man's means of subordinating society to secular moral law. In the branch of its philosophy that deals with politics, the government is fully restricted from the interference with individual rights. In it, the government has but 3 legitimate functions; a (volunteer) army to defend against foreign powers and influence, a (highly regulated) police force to protect individual citizens from violations of their rights (crimes), and a system of (objective) courts to arbitrate legitimate disputes between citizens. With no authority to increase its power, it is unable to abuse that power.

While this stems from the Randian belief in the "heroic" man who, if allowed, will flourish, I have one primary dispute with Ayn's tenet - I believe that man does have innate evil. However, the only truly evil act is to interfere with someone's rights - to kill them is to vilolate their right to life, to steal is to violate their right to property, et cetera. Oddly enough, this changes my Capitalist tenet from Ayn Rand's belief to Ramtha (JZ Knight)'s - "I don't believe you are good. I don't believe you are evil. I believe you are a god."

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Postby hive_king » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:09 am

But what about the late 1800's, when America had something alot more akin to pure capitalism, and a large part of the country lived in horrifying squalor?
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Postby hive_king » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:11 am

Also, does a lady in Yelm, Washington who claims to channel a millenia-old alien spirit thingy count as a legitimate philosopher?
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Postby jotabe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:12 am

I am, instead, interested in knowing how slavery isn't viable in a capitalistic society. How 14-hour labour days aren't viable in a capitalistic society.

I always thought they had more to do with the higher moral standards developed by the higher classes what produced the destruction of slavery, and slavery-like labour conditions.

As i see it, the slavery-friendly south was more capitalistic than the industrial north: the north wanted to put barriers to the trade, so they would have a dependant source of cheap raw materials, and a "slave market" for their manufacturated products... the north wanted to ensure a "national market", the same way it was happening in all countries in Europe (protectionism, you know). Instead the south was interested in being able to develop free trade so they could sell their raw materials to the best bidder (since they were using slave labour, they could always give the best price).

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Postby Petra456 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:14 am

Also, does a lady in Yelm, Washington who claims to channel a millenia-old alien spirit thingy count as a legitimate philosopher?
If I claimed to channel a millenia-old alien spirit thingy could I be considered a legitimate philosopher?

Even if I did move to Puyallup?
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Postby jotabe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:26 am

Anthony, sorry to break it to you but:
Libertarianism =/= Capitalism
Objectivism =/= Capitalism

They both defend capitalism as the way to do economy, but the capitalism is merely an economic theory to remove all barriers to free trade and free enterprise. Nothing to do with social and individual rights and freedoms.

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Postby AnthonyByakko » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:36 am

But what about the late 1800's, when America had something alot more akin to pure capitalism, and a large part of the country lived in horrifying squalor?
That's like blaming Ronald Reagan for starting the Cold War. It's like blaming Bill Clinton for the tension in the Balkans. "After which, because of" is a logical fallacy. The horrifying squalor caused by backwards society cannot be blamed on the concept that came in and solved the problem. Collectivism had thousands of years to rule humanity, and where did it take us? Yet capitalism, in a few short decades, turned a completely new nation into the most powerful, free society in human history.

And I see the next argument coming - didn't those capitalist pioneers prey on the low and middle class? Yes, because while the business world was becoming increasingly laissez-faire, a non-capitalist government made its presence known.
Also, does a lady in Yelm, Washington who claims to channel a millenia-old alien spirit thingy count as a legitimate philosopher?
Do you count as a legitimate philosopher? Are you opinions valid? It doesn't matter whether she's batshit crazy, the statement is relevant.

And jota....

Slavery had been an accepted, common practice on every inhabited continent over every time period previous to the American industrial revolution. The antidote to slavery, both philosophicall and historically, was and remains the principles of individual rights and a limited government restricted from the use of force. Some people also forget that slavery was not some kind of national pasttime - it was right after the beginning of the foundation of America that Jefferson signed into law the abolition of the slave trade with other nations, thus limiting slavery to a section (rather than national) institution (which was all he was empowered to do at the time.) As Jayelle had said, Christianity (in particular, William Wilberforce, the Quakers, et cetera) actively opposed it. This was supported and carried out howeverby the tenets of Adam Smith; "A person who can acquire no property, can have no other interest but to eat as much and labor as little as possible... (which is) squeezed out of him by violence only." Whereas one employer can simply pay a free laborer's wages, a plantation owner (for example) must first purchase (cost) a slave, then feed (cost), clothe (cost), shelter (cost) and provide at least bare enough medical care to keep them alive and in working order (cost). A slave, in economic terms, is a capital investment - one whose costs outway the gain. It is even noted that slave owners were unwilling to give their slaves the most dangerous of work (since they were such a high-cost investment) and rather instead paid free laboring Irish, whom had only the cost of their daily wages. And, additionally, even if it is conceded that slavery was "profitable" it was hardly "economically viable." Slavery is a system that consistantly undermines productivity, and thus, viability. Adding in the cost of enforcing slavery - guards, weapons, fences, slave patrols, et cetera, these not only cost money, but take man-hours away from workers who might otherwise be doing productive work! It stands to reason that even the most stalwart proponent of the slavery system (those who "benefitted") would see that rationally, it would have been more profitable to buy tools instead of weapons, more profitable to have all employees work, rather than some work hard (with no incentive) and some force the others to work. Without all the cost of the slavery system weighing America down, with all its money able to be reinvested in the work rather than in costly slave trade, the Industrial Revolution took off. I haven't even mentioned facts like the restriction of slaves to learn (since slave owners had to be afraid of educated slaves) which also lessened the potential productivity of the worker. There's so much more I can go through, but check it out yourself to see even more.

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Postby AnthonyByakko » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:39 am

Anthony, sorry to break it to you but:
Libertarianism =/= Capitalism
Objectivism =/= Capitalism

They both defend capitalism as the way to do economy, but the capitalism is merely an economic theory to remove all barriers to free trade and free enterprise. Nothing to do with social and individual rights and freedoms.
Um, no.

Fortunately, you aren't the person who defines Capitalism. Evidently you either don't know much about it, or don't care to look for resources. What some people perceive as capitalism is not Capitalism. And don't bandy about "libertarianism", as no one here has ever even mentioned it. I don't even like Libertarians.


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