We don't need no Education (thread)

[mr_thebrain]

I had no idea that even a portion of the public really thought this about teachers.

people believe what the television tells them to believe. in a republican county that means they believe what fox news tells them to believe. and we know how crazy and heavily slanted fox news is... nor are they concerned with facts.

[Mich]

My dad teaches high school engineering and related classes. Apparently this year they replaced two prep periods out of the week with classes and reduced pay. After saddling my dad with even more classes after firing another teacher.

Don't really have much else to say, I suppose, but it makes my blood boil.

[neo-dragon]

Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing that could happen in my neck of the woods if the wrong party wins this week's election.

I'm worried because all people need to hear is "lower taxes" and they won't care what happens to those "lazy, over-paid teachers", or realize that it also means things like larger class sizes and teachers having less time (or energy) to help their kids. Teachers aren't over paid. To be fair, I'd say that in Canada we aren't under paid either. Our salaries are decent, and our pension and benefits are, as far as I understand these things, not bad at all. Some people, however, adamantly believe that this is better than we deserve. After all, we're lazy! We only work from 8:30 to 3:00. We get 2 months off in the summer, 2 weeks at Christmas, and 1 week in March.

What they don't realize is that as Noodle described with regards to his wife, when teachers aren't in the classroom we are almost always preparing for when we're in the classroom. Evenings, weekends, during our vacations... Most people don't realize that a high percentage of teachers burn-out and leave the profession within their first 5 years.

But that's more than enough ranting from me. I'm not trying to elicit pity, respect, appreciation, or even understanding. Consider these my humble observations about how the public sees teachers compared to how we see ourselves, and imagine why it's scary for teachers when people who haven't been in a classroom for decades and even then never as educators are the ones making the policies.

[Syphon the Sun]

Full disclosure: my wife is a teacher and I have been a member of both private and public sector unions.

The health insurance company owned by the teachers union was already in competition with other non union run health insurance companies.

It takes some amazing mental acrobatics to call it "competition" with a straight face and to think there's no obvious conflict of interest. The fact that some local unions didn't self-deal doesn't mean that there was actual competition for the majority of districts. It's like letting Steve Jobs decide what brand of computers the school has to buy. If it was a truly competitive market, nothing would have changed re: insurance carriers. And yet, many school districts fled WEA Trust and saved millions by switching to lower-cost options. Other districts stayed with WEA Trust because they came back with lower bids than other carriers, at prices drastically reduced from those before the law. Indeed, the vast majority of the most expensive plans came from, you guessed it, WEA Trust.

I ask, how does requiring teachers to wear skirts that go below the knee save the district or the taxpayers any money?

I don't know enough about the collective bargaining law to know whether that district's interpretation is valid. Nor did I say I approve of the legislation in every particular. I said that I don't think public sector unions should be self-dealing on the taxpayers' dime, particularly when the self-dealt plans tend to be the most expensive. Well, I guess I also said that outright lying about the cause of deficits only works when your audience is ignorant of the truth.

[locke]

Well, I guess I also said that outright lying about the cause of deficits only works when your audience is ignorant of the truth.

Glad to see you admitting what it is you do: lie about the cause of deficits and rely on audience ignorance.

[Syphon the Sun]

Glad to see you admitting what it is you do: lie about the cause of deficits and rely on audience ignorance.

This would be clever if you knew what you're talking about. As usual, you don't. If you're going to rely on the Lang report, you should probably read it, first. (And stop relying on Rachel Maddow's false smears, repeated elsewhere in the liberal blogosphere, without actually, you know, researching the issue.)

The report projected a $56 million net surplus for the last fiscal period, but only if certain costs are ignored. If you read the report, it makes clear that the $56 million surplus ignores specified costs. It ignored: $153.2 million shortfall in Medicaid programs; $3.5 million shortfall in State Public Defender services; $21.7 million shortfall in the Department of Corrections; $58.7 million (plus interest) owed to Minnesota; and $200 million (plus lost earnings, attorney fees, and interest) owed to the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund.

$56 million surplus, less the ignored shortfalls in Medicaid and the criminal justice system: $122.4 million deficit.
Throw in the money owed to Minnesota (without interest): $181.1 million deficit.
Add the money owed to the IPFC Fund (without lost earnings, attorney fees, or interest): $381.1 million deficit.

The report then goes on to discuss the tax cuts, estimating that they will reduce revenues by $117.2 million in the next two fiscal years. Why? Because they didn't take effect until FY2012 (whereas the above mentioned deficit was for FY2011). And when the tax cuts are actually in place, they make up $117.2 million of a deficit at least as large as $3.6 billion (more if you add in the statutorily required balance).

Moral of the story: know what you're talking about before calling someone a liar.

[neo-dragon]

I find this interesting:

Florida schools are using fingerprint scanners to track students

It would actually be really convenient, but the money could probably be put to better use.

[neo-dragon]

It's funny because it's true:

[Syphon the Sun]

I really hate that, Jason. And what's worse, the kids themselves will learn that's how to handle getting bad grades (or bad performance reviews in the real world).

Also, going to leave the opposite kind of story here.

[neo-dragon]

I don't ever try to protect my kids from consequences they deserve.

I wish that more parents were like this, and I don't just mean that as a teacher, but as a person. I know that it's parental instinct to want to protect your kids from all forms of harm, even those they brought upon themselves, but I'm a big believer in people dealing with the consequences of their actions and hopefully learning from them.

Anyway, the teacher in this story has been well indoctrinated. Probably fresh out of teachers college or whatever you guys call teacher training. Her perspective is that the purpose of the test is to assess Ben's knowledge of math, not his ability to make responsible decisions. This is actually true. But would I have let him rewrite the test? Hell No!

[Syphon the Sun]

She actually had Child and Protective Services called on her for that post. Which is how I heard about it in the first place.

[neo-dragon]

WHAT!?

That's it, I'm done. I've given up on humanity. As soon as the zombies, apes, aliens, or robots come to wipe us out, I'm siding with them. Sorry guys.

[zeroguy]

What's up with those grades?

Yeah, seriously, aren't they supposed to be letters or something? (I see a 2 3 1 and 0 in that image)

[Bean_wannabe]

As soon as the zombies, apes, aliens, or robots come to wipe us out, I'm siding with them.

I'll join you if it's the aliens or robots. Zombies and apes have too much difficulty identifying friend from foe for any sort of collaboration to be viable.

EDIT: Drat my lack of quote tag ability.

[neo-dragon]

That's actually a very good point.

[neo-dragon]

I think this is pretty neat: Chromebooks for Education

Many schools in both Canada and the U.S. are, or at least are talking about, creating learning environments where every student has access to a notebook/netbook computer every day. This can happen in a number of ways. The school can have class sets of computers that stay in the classroom. Alternatively, the school can issue each student their own computer which they are free to use at home as well as at school. Or finally, the school can make it a requirement that students purchase some form of laptop.

At least one high school in my area is looking at taking the latter approach. My problem is, doesn’t this discriminate based on socioeconomic backgrounds? Public education is supposed to be free after all, and in any school there are families who can barely afford lunch money. How can they be told they must purchase a laptop, or 2 or 3 depending on how many kids they have attending the school?

[starlooker]

My Dad's school is assigning kids iPads. Same way they assign textbooks for the year, pretty much. Apparently, being a small school in an oil district, this is something they can afford, and they have ideas for how to use it in the classroom, etc. My father is not crazy about it (worries about keeping kids off of facebook in the class, etc.) but I think it's neat since they have the resources for it.

However, I am one-hundred percent ANTI forcing kids' parents to buy laptops or iPads or whatever else. Some parents can barely afford to buy their kids freaking backpacks and crayons for school. I think it's very discriminatory.

[Jayelle]

However, I am one-hundred percent ANTI forcing kids' parents to buy laptops or iPads or whatever else. Some parents can barely afford to buy their kids freaking backpacks and crayons for school. I think it's very discriminatory.

This. So much this.

I read a comment recently with people debating e-books and someone literally said "Everyone should have an e-reader. They're only $200. Who can't afford that?" It put me into a rage. I hate that attitude. It is incredibly ignorant.

Laptops/iPads/Netbooks in the classroom are awesome, but they shouldn't be the responsibility of the parents to buy.

[neo-dragon]

Eventually I think that all schools will end up issuing some from of mobile computer to students. It's just the way our society is heading, and it's definitely a good thing to incorporate technology in education. I am also troubled by the notion of making the parents pay for them, but it's also a big investment for the schools. Netbooks would probably be more feasible than iPads in most situations since they are literally half the cost, but can easily perform any task that a student is likely to need. Unfortunately the Chromebooks shown in the video above aren't available in Canada, as I think they would be perfect as school-issued laptops.

[Dr. Mobius]

Personally, I think they should fix the underlying problems in the system before they throw more money at it. A failing school isn't going to suddenly turn around because every student has been gifted a shiny new electronic distraction by the school board.

[Syphon the Sun]

Do schools in Canada charge textbook rental fees?

All of the public schools I attended had textbook rental fees. (The private school didn't, but I assume that has more to do with the fact that those costs were included in the tuition, as the only "fees" were for optional activities: sports, music lessons, etc.)

I didn't really pay attention to it when I was younger, but I know that by the time I was in high school, they amounted to a few hundred bucks. (I assume they had a sliding-scale reduction for those families that qualify for free or reduced-priced lunches -- the way most U.S. schools determine family-income -- so that those who couldn't afford the fees didn't have to pay them.)

I'd imagine a lot of districts that do the textbook rental fees will (eventually) move toward electronic learning sources and handle it in the same way they handle textbooks, now. So parents would be trading one fee for another. Of course, that assumes that school districts won't waste money when buying technology, which they're notorious for doing. (A few years ago, one of the local districts spent upwards of $1000 per desktop computer for computers that they probably could have bought from Wal-Mart for $300 or $400.)

[starlooker]

That's the first time I ever heard of a textbook rental fee. Ever. Is that common at all?

We had to go through our books and note any previous damage, and losses or damage occurred over the course of the year were paid for at the end.

[Jayelle]

I don't remember a text book rental fee. But it has been almost 15 years, so I can't recall.

[neo-dragon]

Personally, I think they should fix the underlying problems in the system before they throw more money at it. A failing school isn't going to suddenly turn around because every student has been gifted a shiny new electronic distraction by the school board.

No, they wouldn't magically solve larger underlying problems, but they might do more good than you realize. I don't consider my school board to be underfunded or otherwise under served by any means, but lack of computer access for students has been frustrating at times. I feel like I shouldn't have to book a computer lab days in advance and move my whole class just so that they can do a web-based assignment. It'd also be great if I could do a powerpoint based lesson and have every student following along on their own screen, or if I could have them access lab instructions that I've posted online right there in class, instead of telling them to print them at home the night before and then hear excuses about their internet being down or the printer being out of ink or how they just plain forgot. Come to think of it, what schools would save in photocopying and the cost of physical textbooks might make it a good long term investment.

Will these devices be distractions to some students? Well, as it is, students are already allowed to use laptops in class if they choose, and in my experience those who do choose to use them appropriately. The board blocks access to sites quite effectively, and if the computers are school-issued, confiscating them when necessary shouldn't be an issue. It's a problem that I'd be willing to deal with in exchange for the benefits of having them.

Do schools in Canada charge textbook rental fees?

I can't speak for all of Canada but around here kids don't pay for text books unless they fail to return them intact at the end of the semester.

[Syphon the Sun]

That's the first time I ever heard of a textbook rental fee. Ever. Is that common at all?

We had to go through our books and note any previous damage, and losses or damage occurred over the course of the year were paid for at the end.

I've attended 5 public schools in two different districts (the districts were about an hour or so apart). And then did student teaching in another district. (Also within an hour of the other districts.) All of them did the rental thing. Though it very well could be an Illinois thing.

(We also had to pay for lost/damaged books at the end of the year.)

[Gravity Defier]

We paid all sorts of fees in my high school; class fees (something like $15/semester for vocational classes such as drafting, and $25/year for band), some small amount for a gym uniform if you did P.E., and yes, I believe we paid some fee for books. If they were damaged/lost, we then also had to pay the cover price to replace them. Because all those fees added up, it was hell on my parents when two of us were going at a time, which was all four of my years between two of my brothers and I, but we were kind to the state...we only asked for help on reduced lunches.

[starlooker]

There were definitely fees and costs for various elective courses, but none that I can recall for required courses. This is where I think that the state needs to supply the resources necessary for completion of those classes. It's unfortunate and sad for a kid not to be able to play in band if he/she wants to. But it's wrong to put a heavy financial burden on equipment that will be mandatory for successful completion of core academic courses.

[Gravity Defier]

Honestly, the number of elective classes were shrinking and continues to shrink, and a high percentage of the ones remaining (yearbook, photography, band, drafting, art, autoshop, agriculture, etc.) had fees tacked on. You needed a certain amount of electives to graduate. If you were smart/ambitious, you double dipped credits at the community college - since you most likely had to pay something for the electives at the high school, you may as well pay there.

I believe the only free options for electives were more "required" classes (sciences, history, etc.), psychology, or debate/speech/academic decathlon but then, on those, the books, if any were needed, were paid for in the book fee at the beginning of the year so they weren't exactly free.

Gifted also counted, I believe, but you had to be invited and then tested to get in.

The P.E. uniforms were required to take the class on campus (summer school was also an option, also cost money) and P.E. was required to graduate; if you didn't have the uniform, your grade was docked on a weekly basis.

Needless to say, while AZ sucks the big one, I don't think we're all that strange in behaviors to help recoup money in education.

[Luet]

No fees for textbooks in any classes and I can't remember fees for even most elective classes except things like band instruments.

[LilBee91]

I never had textbook fees, but elective classes and labs did sometimes have fees. I don't think I ever paid more than $30 bucks a semester though, if you exclude my band instrument rental in elementary school. The only fee that really annoyed me was the $5 towel fee in gym when absolutely no one showered. I think every one of my classrooms had a computer and there were multiple computer labs for us to use. Cell phones and laptops generally weren't allowed to be used in class, but my TI-83 was distraction enough.

[zeroguy]

There were definitely fees and costs for various elective courses, but none that I can recall for required courses. This is where I think that the state needs to supply the resources necessary for completion of those classes. It's unfortunate and sad for a kid not to be able to play in band if he/she wants to. But it's wrong to put a heavy financial burden on equipment that will be mandatory for successful completion of core academic courses.

This makes me slightly confused about the concept... what happens if you can't/don't pay the fee? You just... don't get books?

I'd never heard of this either (growing up on the east coast) until a friend of mine (who went to school in Wisconsin) mentioned something like this. I thought it sounded bizarre.

Also, in my high school there was one (non-CS) class where there was a computer for each student. Anecdotes do not make data, but I can at least say in that situation, it definitely hindered productivity.

[Luet]

We were so spoiled as east coasters, eh Zero?

My husband from California said that they had to bring their own sports equipment to gym class. They would each bring their own baseball gloves, for example, to use in class. I had never heard of such a thing! Our school provided enough for everybody.

[neo-dragon]

This brings up a whole different topic; the discrepancy in standards between districts. Here in Canada, curriculum, policies, teacher licencing, etc. is determined at the provincial level, just as I assume it's done by State in the U.S. Consequently, as my entire academic life as both a student and a teacher has been in one province, I couldn't tell you much about what's done in other parts of the country without doing a little research.

Of course, Ontario is the only part of Canada that matters anyway

[Rei]

Of course, Ontario is the only part of Canada that matters anyway

Spoken like a true Ontarian

[Jayelle]

Of course, Ontario is the only part of Canada that matters anyway