Things I Don't Understand

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
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Postby starlooker » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:01 pm

Yeah, I guess there isn't now that all the awesome lines I was thinking of refer in my head to death. "Together we can make it to the end of the line" and some other ones I can't think of now that I'm dead tired.

It just bugs me. There are a few lines that cause me real confusion, even though I'm probably making it more complicated than it is.

But I like my theory.

ETA: And what the f*** is that whole, "Turn around, Bright Eyes" business about? As far as I know, Bright Eyes was a My Little Pony I had back in the day. Blue. Okay, but even assuming it's an affectionate nickname of some sort, I don't get it and I kind of want to slap the person singing it through the radio waves.

Seriously. The local radio stations have been playing that song Way. Too. Much.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
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There's another life out there...

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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:06 pm

I like your theory, too. Much more entertaining than the melodrama that it really is.

The song also reminds me of a movie (comedic) that I can't remember the name of at the moment but I'm sure Syphon will come in tomorrow and name it for me.



Just an FYI, both of your posts on this made me happy. I don't know why but that sort of over-thinking cracks me the hell up.
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Postby Noodle » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:14 pm

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/40486 ... -the-heart

I'm sure you've seen this, but if not here it is for your enjoyment.

And as for the meaning of the song. I'm really clueless.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:23 pm

Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:50 am

I don't understand why my Latin professor would assume, while ignoring the add/drop your classes time period, that we would all have our books by Friday.

What about the people that ordered books? What about the people who's dad's don't get paid till Friday? C'mon, you were a decently likeable teacher other than that ridiculousness.
Heaven forbid he should expect you to be prepared for class. Welcome to university. And sorry, but with Latin, you really do need the textbook, it's not something you can cram at the end of term. But with any class, if you don't have it, you take responsibility for not [ordering sooner/buying your own dang books - delete which is appropriate], you apologise, and you borrow from a classmate.

Professors set booklists in advance so students can be prepared. That's why he assumed everyone would be suitably prepared. I hope that helps your not-understanding.
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Postby LilBee91 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:28 am

What I don't get is why professors don't tell you that an older edition of the textbooks will work until the first day of class, when you've already bought the expensive new edition. One of the many reasons I like all of my professors who send out the syllabus early.
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Postby starlooker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:49 am

I don't understand why my Latin professor would assume, while ignoring the add/drop your classes time period, that we would all have our books by Friday.
.
I really don't understand why you would expect a professor to take the drop/add period into account. The vast majority of the class is not going to drop the class. It would be a waste of time and money for the professor to, you know, put off teaching until every student had made up their mind as to whether or not they would stick with it. If you're going to drop the class, you can always sell the book back. But that's your own problem, not the professor's. Likewise, if you add the class later. The majority of the class is not made up of people who add in the second week of classes, and it's a bit self-centered to assume the class would just wait to progress until you bought your books. It may not be your fault, exactly, but it's damn sure your responsibility.

If you put a class on your schedule, it is assumed you are going to take the class. I would never have dreamed of not buying all of the books for the classes I signed up for on the off chance I would drop one of them. Or imagined a class that I added late would have been waiting on me to begin the actual teaching.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

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Postby starlooker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:05 am

I like your theory, too. Much more entertaining than the melodrama that it really is.

~~~
Just an FYI, both of your posts on this made me happy. I don't know why but that sort of over-thinking cracks me the hell up.
Glad you find it entertaining, too. Seriously, it gives that bit about "Living in a powder keg and giving off sparks" a whole new tone, as well as, "Forever's gonna start tonight."

I'm glad it's made you happy. I may be using this thread for that a good bit, because when I put my mind to it, I can overthink just about anything.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

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Postby Noodle » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:10 am

On the textbook theme: This is why I'm so glad I went to the University of Wisconsin. Instead of a textbook purchasing system like every other university I know of, they had a rental system. Much like a library, you check out the books you need at the beginning of the year and return them at the end. If you want to keep your book, lose it, or damage it, you pay for it.

There were always a few books you had to purchase for certain classes (religious studies, english, history) but the majority of my classes just worked out of one or two main textbooks and those we could rent. I think the most I spent for books for a semester was $75 when I had to buy three books about the holocaust and a book for religious studies.
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Postby Noodle » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:18 am

On the Total Eclipse of the Heart Theme: http://www.musicbanter.com/lyrics/Bonni ... Heart.html
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Postby Young Val » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:28 am

Kirsten, if you think the lyrics are bad, try to make sense of the video. Someone else tried....and....failed.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj-x9ygQEGA

"Emo kid is throwing slo-mo dove at my face!"
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:24 pm

Professors set booklists in advance
Just so you know: this has not been my experience at all and I've taken classes at four universities (two public, two private) and a community college.
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Postby CezeN » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:03 pm

I don't understand why my Latin professor would assume, while ignoring the add/drop your classes time period, that we would all have our books by Friday.
.
I really don't understand why you would expect a professor to take the drop/add period into account. The vast majority of the class is not going to drop the class. It would be a waste of time and money for the professor to, you know, put off teaching until every student had made up their mind as to whether or not they would stick with it. If you're going to drop the class, you can always sell the book back. But that's your own problem, not the professor's. Likewise, if you add the class later. The majority of the class is not made up of people who add in the second week of classes, and it's a bit self-centered to assume the class would just wait to progress until you bought your books. It may not be your fault, exactly, but it's damn sure your responsibility.

If you put a class on your schedule, it is assumed you are going to take the class. I would never have dreamed of not buying all of the books for the classes I signed up for on the off chance I would drop one of them. Or imagined a class that I added late would have been waiting on me to begin the actual teaching.
Not everyone has money to waste buying books they may not need, and then selling them at a substantially cheaper price - thus losing a significant chunk of their money.

In most of my experience, professors can, and generally do, put up electronic copies of class books during the first week or so of school - for the benifit of those who may have ordered their books online(instead of getting it straight from the bookstore) and those who may get into the class late. They don't put off teaching, they teach in a way where the actual physical textbooks aren't necessary yet.

For the most part, professors realize that students realize that buying books straight from the bookstore is a big rip off and that the first week of so of the semester is when people may fill into or out of the class due to add, drop, swap.

Considering I've already taken a year at this University, I know the general behavior professionals exhibit - and this Latin professor is deviating from the norm.

Either way, is it my "damn responsibility" to get the books for my class? Yes. Do the professors realize that not everyone who goes to this private university is loaded? Yes. Would I rather make sure I'm going to stay in the class before buying the expensive textbook, or get it to make sure I'm prepared despite the fact most classes feature electronic books that professors can reserve online for their students to read on the topic of their subjects? I can't think of any situation where I'd rather be safe than sorry in terms of textbooks at the beginning of the year. And, when you lose your money selling back a book you decided you didn't need, that's for sure your fault for not testing out the waters first.
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Postby CezeN » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:16 pm

I don't understand why my Latin professor would assume, while ignoring the add/drop your classes time period, that we would all have our books by Friday.

What about the people that ordered books? What about the people who's dad's don't get paid till Friday? C'mon, you were a decently likeable teacher other than that ridiculousness.
Heaven forbid he should expect you to be prepared for class. Welcome to university. And sorry, but with Latin, you really do need the textbook, it's not something you can cram at the end of term. But with any class, if you don't have it, you take responsibility for not [ordering sooner/buying your own dang books - delete which is appropriate], you apologise, and you borrow from a classmate.

Professors set booklists in advance so students can be prepared. That's why he assumed everyone would be suitably prepared. I hope that helps your not-understanding.
Thanks for the welcome, it's not like I've already been in university for a year.

If your university works differently, there's no reason you should assume mine works the same way.

And, I'm pretty sure that's how it is with every language. Now, there's a difference between putting off getting a book and cramming near the end, and putting off getting a book for the first week so you can make sure you are going to stay in the class and get the money to buy the books.

Professors may set booklists in advanced, but I've had professors who give out the syllabus on the first day and then tell us about books we don't need to get for one reason or another. I still think it's smarter to wait till the first day of class, and hear what he says, instead of just buying all the books in advance - without even checking out the class first - and ignoring the fact that you may switch out.

Yes, you borrow from a classmate. That's why I asked a girl I know if I could borrow her book, and she said she's not getting it to Thursday (if it comes in at all).

Anyways, I like the fact that the notes I took on the first day of class helped me well enough to pronounce the latin excercises we individually did today - outloud - despite the fact I didn't even have the book. Guess I can somehow start studying and learning without having the book the very first week of class. Funny how that works.

But no, for the record - this professor is being unreasonable compared to all the professors I've encountered thus far. Your opinion on his different point of view helps in no way reconcile the fact that I don't understand why he's acting as unempathetic as I assume stateschool professors act toward their students.
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Postby CezeN » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:20 pm

On the textbook theme: This is why I'm so glad I went to the University of Wisconsin. Instead of a textbook purchasing system like every other university I know of, they had a rental system. Much like a library, you check out the books you need at the beginning of the year and return them at the end. If you want to keep your book, lose it, or damage it, you pay for it.

There were always a few books you had to purchase for certain classes (religious studies, english, history) but the majority of my classes just worked out of one or two main textbooks and those we could rent. I think the most I spent for books for a semester was $75 when I had to buy three books about the holocaust and a book for religious studies.
....so you go to University of Awsomeness? :o
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Postby Noodle » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:48 pm

....so you go to University of Awsomeness? :o
Went. Almost a decade ago. I'm not sure if they still do the rental system, but It's a huge selling point of the University system here so they'd be hard pressed to get rid of it. It's not like you're not paying for the books. There's a textbook rental surcharge in your tuition, but since it's hidden in with the rest of your tuition fees, it's usually just included directly in your student loans or other payment options.

I realize that your school doesn't have a rental policy, so you don't have that option, but I think the general consensus here is that you're an adult now and it's time for you to take responsibility for your own needs. Sure it's nice that most of the professors at your university have embraced the technological resources available to them and made available the electronic version of their textbook, but that's a very recent addition to the schooling process. There is no expectation that every professor embrace that methodology, nor is there a requirement for them to do so.

I'd be willing to bet that this Latin professor is just the first in a line of others you will encounter with this particular policy. As you move your way up into higher level classes I'm sure the burden will only be greater. College professors can be hard asses, but they are often not nearly has hard as your future boss. If you were hired at a job and told that you should show up on the first day with certain resources, you damn well better show up with them. The adult world doesn't have to cut you slack just because you might not be fully committed to the cause.

I'm sorry to not be very sympathetic, but you are after all in the class voluntarily, if you don't like the way the class is run, get out. Surely this is just one sign of the expectations the professor will have for you throughout the semester.
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Postby starlooker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:01 pm


And, I'm pretty sure that's how it is with every language. Now, there's a difference between putting off getting a book and cramming near the end, and putting off getting a book for the first week so you can make sure you are going to stay in the class and get the money to buy the books.

Professors may set booklists in advanced, but I've had professors who give out the syllabus on the first day and then tell us about books we don't need to get for one reason or another. I still think it's smarter to wait till the first day of class, and hear what he says, instead of just buying all the books in advance - without even checking out the class first - and ignoring the fact that you may switch out.
Then that's your choice, and you risk being unprepared. It's still not the professor's fault.

I went to a private college for four years, and a state graduate school following, and the vast majority of the time we were expected to be prepared if we had signed up for the class in the first place. If you want to wait to be sure, that's fine -- but that's your choice and not the professor's fault at all. I really don't see how your choice to wait to buy your textbooks is his responsibility. If you're going to do that, then suck it up and realize that there may be consequences, even if 90% of the time there won't be. If that's fine with you because this is what you prefer to do, then what are you complaining about? Seriously. I do not understand you not understanding that this is your responsibility.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
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There's another life out there...

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Postby zeroguy » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:22 pm

Heaven forbid he should expect you to be prepared for class. Welcome to university.
"Welcome to uni"? I think this response would be more understandable to me if over 90% of the "required" listed textbooks were not complete lies. I expect language classes to be different, but that's not something I'd expect for universities in general.

(That is, lies wrt their required-ness, not their contents)
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Postby Wind Swept » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:33 pm

Our bookstore allowed us to return books for a full refund during the first two weeks of school. So, the trick was, buy the books at full price from the bookstore before class starts, go to class to figure out if they were really needed, order the books that were needed from Amazon, then return the bookstore books when the cheap, Amazon books showed up the next week.
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Postby Platypi007 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:59 am

I have seen signs at the bookstores for University of South Carolina this year advertising textbook rental (they operate through B&N) and I've seen Half.com offering textbook rentals this year as well, so that seems to be catching on.

Generally you can return books for full refund within a month, it's only after that that you get the reduced rate.

I most often bought my books on amazon, half, or B&N's used stores to save money, provided that I could get a list of books required for the class with enough advance notice. I guess I would have sold them the same way, but I'm a book hoarder so I've got almost every textbook I ever bought.

The few I did sell in undergrad I sold directly to other students, you usually come out better that way and so do they, provided the edition hasn't changed.

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Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:24 am

I can't eat chicken anymore. Any chicken. I also can't even smell it. If I do, vomit city.
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Postby starlooker » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:05 pm

Um, do you, Ali, and I all have something in common, Helen? Because I'm wondering if I may not understand your chicken problem.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
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There's another life out there...

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Postby starlooker » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:13 pm

Kirsten, if you think the lyrics are bad, try to make sense of the video. Someone else tried....and....failed.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj-x9ygQEGA

"Emo kid is throwing slo-mo dove at my face!"
*Nearly dies laughing*

It's the first chance I've had to watch it, since normally the TV's on when I use the computer and I can't have the sound up.

*Nearly bursts from laughing*

Oh, God, I think my shrieking scared the cats.

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Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:41 pm

Eh, the blood tests I had a the doctor last month said no, and the problem has been going on since before that. Plus, Mr. Dear and I use two forms of birth control.
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Postby starlooker » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:50 pm

Ah. Well. In that case, my guess would be that all the chicken you eat is possessed. Or something.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
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There's another life out there...

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Postby CezeN » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:51 pm

"Dear Students and Colleagues,


Although not all content is available on the Latin 101 Blackboard site yet I have posted the first three chapters of our text and the first several drills from the workbook as PDF files to aid those of you waiting for textbook deliveries.


Have a great weekend!


KD"

I'm glad another Latin 101 teacher gets it. =]
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Postby CezeN » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:29 am

....so you go to University of Awsomeness? :o
Went. Almost a decade ago. I'm not sure if they still do the rental system, but It's a huge selling point of the University system here so they'd be hard pressed to get rid of it. It's not like you're not paying for the books. There's a textbook rental surcharge in your tuition, but since it's hidden in with the rest of your tuition fees, it's usually just included directly in your student loans or other payment options.

I realize that your school doesn't have a rental policy, so you don't have that option, but I think the general consensus here is that you're an adult now and it's time for you to take responsibility for your own needs. Sure it's nice that most of the professors at your university have embraced the technological resources available to them and made available the electronic version of their textbook, but that's a very recent addition to the schooling process. There is no expectation that every professor embrace that methodology, nor is there a requirement for them to do so.

I'd be willing to bet that this Latin professor is just the first in a line of others you will encounter with this particular policy. As you move your way up into higher level classes I'm sure the burden will only be greater. College professors can be hard asses, but they are often not nearly has hard as your future boss. If you were hired at a job and told that you should show up on the first day with certain resources, you damn well better show up with them. The adult world doesn't have to cut you slack just because you might not be fully committed to the cause.

I'm sorry to not be very sympathetic, but you are after all in the class voluntarily, if you don't like the way the class is run, get out. Surely this is just one sign of the expectations the professor will have for you throughout the semester.
Don't apologize for not being sympathetic, as if I need the validation of any of you guys towards my previous opinion.

You guys picture professors as hardasses, I picture them as human beings that can put themself in the mind of their students.

There's the fundamental difference - and while you guys go "boohoo grow up you're an adult now", I'm thinking about how this isn't the stone age where electronic teaching material is a novel alternative. It's not as if there isn't a website where teachers can reserve electronic copies of books for their students. It's not as if it's impossible to learn without a physical textbook.

I guess you guys just grew up in a different day and age.

Btw- Considering I worked last year, and will work this year, I think I'm all good when it comes to being prepared - in terms of a mindset - for my future job. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that teachers who aren't empathetic to their classes should be percieved as a plus because it's "preparation".

Furthermore, the whole concept of an add-drop-swap period implies that the expectation of everyone being prepared for the very first class or second would be quite a foolish expectation.
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Postby Rei » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:48 am

Just a note on scanning and posting electronic copies of textbooks, most professors I've had were not permitted by the university to take the time and money required to obtain the appropriate permissions from the publishers to do that. A course pack saves money only so long as you don't copy too much from any given work, and three chapters is almost certainly more than the permitted amount.

Out of curiosity, which text is being used in this class, anyway?
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:44 am

Copyright law is a lot more nuanced than that. Introductory chapters don't displace the market for the original work, assuming they utilize more than those chapters in the class. I'd defend that case any day of the week.
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Postby mr_thebrain » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:12 pm

they should just kindle all that s*** anyway
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Postby Wind Swept » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:47 pm

On the subject of e-textbooks:

I'm very surprised digital textbook piracy isn't more prevalent. College students pirate music and video and games like there's no tomorrow, but I ran into very few people in college torrenting textbook PDFs.
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Postby zeroguy » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:45 pm

I think you'd see that a lot more if creating the digital copies were easier. Scanning books is ridiculously annoying to do, and I'm not aware of any easy way to purchase electronic versions most of the time.
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CezeN
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:07 am

Just a note on scanning and posting electronic copies of textbooks, most professors I've had were not permitted by the university to take the time and money required to obtain the appropriate permissions from the publishers to do that. A course pack saves money only so long as you don't copy too much from any given work, and three chapters is almost certainly more than the permitted amount.

Out of curiosity, which text is being used in this class, anyway?
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:25 am


And, I'm pretty sure that's how it is with every language. Now, there's a difference between putting off getting a book and cramming near the end, and putting off getting a book for the first week so you can make sure you are going to stay in the class and get the money to buy the books.

Professors may set booklists in advanced, but I've had professors who give out the syllabus on the first day and then tell us about books we don't need to get for one reason or another. I still think it's smarter to wait till the first day of class, and hear what he says, instead of just buying all the books in advance - without even checking out the class first - and ignoring the fact that you may switch out.
Then that's your choice, and you risk being unprepared. It's still not the professor's fault.

I went to a private college for four years, and a state graduate school following, and the vast majority of the time we were expected to be prepared if we had signed up for the class in the first place. If you want to wait to be sure, that's fine -- but that's your choice and not the professor's fault at all. I really don't see how your choice to wait to buy your textbooks is his responsibility. If you're going to do that, then suck it up and realize that there may be consequences, even if 90% of the time there won't be. If that's fine with you because this is what you prefer to do, then what are you complaining about? Seriously. I do not understand you not understanding that this is your responsibility.
So, the vast majority of the time professors expected you to be prepared with all the texts by the first day of class - and now you're putting your experience off as a critique against my initial post...

Now, what does it mean when the vast majority of the time, in my experience so far, professors have not expected us to have all the physical texts by the first day of class? Doesn't it mean your own experience is not equitable, or even a standard of judgement, for mine?

Obviously, you would cite those few times professors didn't hold you to that expectation as outliers. I'm citing this professor the same - and so why should I not complain if he's differing in empathy and first-week procedure from all the professors I've had thus far?

I really don't get your not understanding of me not understanding my professor. Yours apparently lacked empathy, mine haven't, and why wouldn't I complain about a professor who's not considering obvious variables that effect why he shouldn't expect us to start learning immediately on the second day with the textbook, despite all the alternatives I have already listed in this thread to the physical copy.

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Eaquae Legit
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:09 am

Your drunk-driving analogy makes no sense.

Despite how it may look, professors are insanely busy. They don't generally have time for coddling students. They're there to teach those students, and it's not their responsibility to jolly along those who aren't keeping up. To be quite honest, the majority of undergrads are entitled and whiny, and profs quite quickly lose any patience for that.

That's not to say that they're unfeeling bastards - students who have genuine issues and are willing to work with the prof to sort them out are likely to find a sympathetic and generous ear. I screwed up royally in one of my MA classes, and even though I had an awful cold for two weeks prior, to this day it still feels like my responsibility. When he found out about the cold, my prof gave me the extension I hadn't asked for. When a student tells a prof, however, "I'm not ordering the books yet because I'm not sure I'm going to stay in the class", it sounds an awful lot like "I'm not convinced this class is worth my time", which is intensely irritating to a person who has likely dedicated years of their life to it. Not to mention that they know the class won't be worth the student's time if they don't keep up right from the start (this is especially true of Latin).

The fact that another prof was generous enough to share their resources is very nice of them. But in no way should it be considered an obligation. It's a really big favour that they're very generous to do. Students have no right to demand that sort of work or to be pissed off when one prof has better things to do. It's helpful and kind and should be appreciated in each instance as the above-and-beyond that it is. Not taken as a right or expected.

Or, concisely, I understand the disappointment that this time it was harder. The sense of entitlement is what bugs me (and probably Kirsten, too).

Am I a hardass bitch? Maybe. I'll be providing photocopies for the my first class, and after that, my students will be expected to have their s*** together. They're adults. I have far too much going on than to waste my time accommodating laziness. That said, if someone's in a bind, I don't mind helping out, but it's up to them to show me why I should.
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