Things I Don't Understand

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Postby Noodle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:51 am

Your drunk-driving analogy makes no sense.

...the majority of undergrads are entitled and whiny, and profs quite quickly lose any patience for that....

....The sense of entitlement is what bugs me....
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Postby Luet » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:02 am

I think Cezen has a bit of a problem with analogies. His pot/MLP analogy was pretty out there as well.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Syphon, can you explain what you mean in your post?
The quick response: there is an exception to the rights granted to authors under copyright law and it's called fair-use. Rei was, in a roundabout way, talking about fair-use as it relates to coursepacks and the like. He focused on the amount of the copied work as the deciding factor ("3 chapters is too much!"), when there are actually 4 factors to analyze, the most important being whether the copying impairs the market for the original. In this instance, he's only providing you with the introductory chapters. If those were the only chapters you had to use from those books, it would certainly impair the market for the original (nobody in your class will buy a book they no longer need). But, given the fact that you will use the book throughout the class and necessarily need the other chapters, the market isn't actually diminished. You still need a book, regardless of whether he posts the first few chapters.

I'd take a case where you have the single most important fair-use factor on your side any day of the week. You might not always win (it's a balancing test, after all), but the odds aren't exactly out of your favor.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:58 pm

Also, for the record, I think he has a legitimate complaint that you're using your experiences as a benchmark for what generally occurs. Your experiences aren't the norm simply because they're your experiences. And even if they were the norm, that doesn't mean that's how every school operates.

My experiences were very different from yours, apparently. Until I went to law school, none of my professors gave out booklists early. The earliest you could get it was the day before the semester began. And even then, on the first day of class, the professor would tell you "don't buy X, Y, or Z."

All that to say: it's pretty silly to cast stones based upon assumptions that you don't know are actually true.
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Postby VelvetElvis » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:15 pm

My experiences were very different from yours, apparently. Until I went to law school, none of my professors gave out booklists early. The earliest you could get it was the day before the semester began. And even then, on the first day of class, the professor would tell you "don't buy X, Y, or Z."
That's interesting, because we were almost always able to see a book list when we registered for the class.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:19 pm

We got our booklists at least two weeks early but generally much earlier (when we registered, typically, which was the semester before). It was broken down into two types of books: required (all of which we used) and recommended (supplementary reading). We almost always used books that had used copies but on the rare occasions we had new editions, we had until two weeks after classes started, the same length of time to add/drop a class, to return for a full refund. There were sometimes required purchases for bound materials, that we couldn't get before classes started, but we were notified of this in the class summary: "This class requires [x] from the University press, available the first week of class."



All that to say, yes, experiences will vary Syphon but in this case, I still think, regardless of what his experience in his two whole semesters dictate, that it is probably not so abnormal at his school for what happened with his Latin teacher to happen, but he hasn't been in school long enough to know either way. I guess he could ask around but people are known to be hyperbolic in casually relating their experiences, using words like "most" when really they mean one or two. If he comes back after his 4 or 5 years and says that this was the exception, it'll be something else.

For the time being, I think he is making excuses because he realizes the "I don't know if I even want to commit to this class" comment made him look flaky. But also realize it's no secret I don't like the kid and came into this conversation thinking he was full of it. *shrugs*



ETA: My professors would add note outlines for us to print for class, along with the syllabus, and we considered that a gift. I don't think online books from all his other professors takes away from the fact that he feels entitled. It just means they're all feeding that sense of entitlement.
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Postby Luet » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:29 pm

*applause*
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:38 pm

So, he has to wait until he has 4 years of experience at his school before his experience trumps everyone else's varied experiences not-at-his-school? The point is: I don't think it's fair to make those judgments based upon your own experiences, which have zero relation to how his school operates. And, indeed, nobody asked when booklists were offered, what the return policies were like, etc. They just assumed that their experiences were universal. They aren't. So when you attack someone based upon those assumptions, when you have no idea if they're true or not, you're acting like a douche.


Also, re: returns, our bookstore(s) had a shrinkwrap policy. If you buy a book, you can return it within the add/drop period for a full refund, assuming it is still in shrinkwrap and you have your receipt. If you take it out of the shrinkwrap, you don't get a refund. (They would shrinkwrap all books before selling them - new or used.)
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:46 pm

I think things vary enough within one person's own school for him to not know as much as he thinks he does at this point. If it makes others, myself included, a douche to think that at the end of the day he's justifying his own irresponsibility, pointing fingers at everyone but himself, so be it. I'm totally that douche. Given he himself admitted most of his teachers are relying on physical copies for their classes and are just "sympathetic to the students" in providing the first few chapters online, I think he's in the wrong to expect it from all teachers, as if they owe him or anyone else. They owe him an education, that's it, point blank. How he chooses to obtain material that they aren't obligated to provide is his issue.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:07 pm

And, indeed, nobody asked when booklists were offered
Regarding that:
(d) Provision of ISBN College Textbook Information in Course Schedules- To the maximum extent practicable, each institution of higher education receiving Federal financial assistance shall--

`(1) disclose, on the institution's Internet course schedule and in a manner of the institution's choosing, the International Standard Book Number and retail price information of required and recommended college textbooks and supplemental materials for each course listed in the institution's course schedule used for preregistration and registration purposes, except that--

`(A) if the International Standard Book Number is not available for such college textbook or supplemental material, then the institution shall include in the Internet course schedule the author, title, publisher, and copyright date for such college textbook or supplemental material; and

`(B) if the institution determines that the disclosure of the information described in this subsection is not practicable for a college textbook or supplemental material, then the institution shall so indicate by placing the designation `To Be Determined' in lieu of the information required under this subsection; and

`(2) if applicable, include on the institution's written course schedule a notice that textbook information is available on the institution's Internet course schedule, and the Internet address for such schedule.
Section 112 of the Higher Education Opportunity Act (H.R. 4137), which was signed into law in August 2008.


That means it is his legal right, assuming his school receives any Federal aid, to know what is expected ahead of time (pre-reg or registration) and if they determine it TBD up until class starts, they know by the first day of class, which, in my experience was when I got a syllabus in paper form, if I didn't have the electronic version already. So by day one, he should know what books he needs no matter what. Given most classes are 2 or 3 days a week (MWF or TTH), he got advanced enough warning to make it happen before assignments or readings were expected to be done.

Basically, I hear excuses from him and I bet he'll be swinging full later on, bringing every last excuse he has about return policies and when he gets booklists. It'll be followed up by a lot of "jk jk rawrlolnotreadingbecauseiknowi'mawhinybaby"s, too.
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Postby Noodle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:13 pm

Also, for the record, I think he has a legitimate complaint that you're using your experiences as a benchmark for what generally occurs. Your experiences aren't the norm simply because they're your experiences. And even if they were the norm, that doesn't mean that's how every school operates.
Very true, but I think most of us aren't trying to argue that his experiences are invalid. He has his experiences, which are fairly limited, and we have ours. Clearly my time in school over a decade ago is very different than school is now, because of the available technology.

But, as has been pointed out, his one year of schooling doesn't necessarily equate to "the norm" at his school. That's beside the point however. The thing I find most offensive about his posts is his attitude.

The sense of entitlement is rampant throughout his posts in this thread. He makes excuses for not buying the texts, and places the blame squarely on his professor, saying things like " this professor is being unreasonable" and "I don't understand why he's acting as unempathetic as I assume stateschool professors act toward their students."

When a professor says the equivalent of "don't waste my time and come to class prepared to learn straight out of the gate" I don't really see that as being 'unreasonable' or 'unempathetic'. I could really go off about that second quote since it's just chock full of superiority complex about his private school education vs a state school but since we've avoided that topic thus-far in this thread I'll let it slide.

Again, just because your professor wants you to have the class materials during the first few class sessions doesn't make them a hard-ass, or unreasonable.

To address the online course materials subject again, do you know all the circumstances that lead to the professor not making the materials available online? Do you know for a fact that the professor is just adopting an attitude of "screw it, let the little bastards buy the book for themselves, it'll be a good lesson?" It's possible that there is more to the story than meets the eye, and due to other circumstances the online editions of the book aren't available. Regardless of why, the online edition is a perk, and your expectation that all professors make this perk available to you is just more of the entitlement attitude.
But also realize it's no secret I don't like the kid and came into this conversation thinking he was full of it. *shrugs*
I haven't been around on the board much since he became active, so I don't really have an opinion of his character. That said, the posts in this thread, and the MLP:FIM thread aren't exactly winning me over. Not to mention that it's becoming increasingly clear that some of the members that I *do* really like have a problem with him. I'm starting to form an informed opinion of the kid.

ETA: quite a bit of this discussion could just as easily be in the "First World Problems" thread.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:21 pm

I think things vary enough between schools for you all to not know as much as you think you do at this point.

I took a toxic torts class where the professor gave the bookstores the list the same day the class started (and they needed time to order them). She ignored e-mails from the class about the book prior to the start of the semester. She didn't give anyone access to the syllabus until the first day. And she was utterly shocked when we didn't have the book on the second day.

All that to say: not having a book during the first week doesn't necessarily make you irresponsible. So, no, it doesn't make you a douche to think he's trying to justify irresponsibility. But it most certainly makes you a douche to insist that he's being irresponsible simply because you've made a lot of assumptions. Maybe those assumptions are right; maybe they're wrong. But it's generally a good idea to figure that out before casting stones.
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Postby Luet » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:34 pm

For the record, I have no assumptions about how college books, professors or any of that works. My problem with Cezen since this conversation started has been the overall level of obnoxiousness in his responses. Granted, that's just my opinion and I had little to no problem with him prior to the last week or two.
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Postby starlooker » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:46 pm

No, honestly, I would agree that not having a book doesn't necessarily make you irresponsible.

Holding the professor responsible for your lack-of-book makes you entitled, whiny, and annoying.

And, yes, it is the entitlement issue that makes me go, WTF? I don't get this.

Look. If the post had been something like, "Aw, well, s***. Most of my professors haven't required me to have my book on the first day of class, so I usually hold off on buying until I'm sure I'm going to stay in the class. But my Latin professor wanted us to have the books the first day, so I'm going to have to scramble to get copies and borrow books until I can get one of my own." I probably would have sympathy.

The whole, "I don't understand how the professor could DO this to us, doesn't he CARE about the add/drop period, why doesn't he take some of his time and make copies available, etc. etc. etc." makes me just think, "God, I bet his professor's praying he does drop the class." Yeesh. It is not that damn hard to ask to borrow a book or buy one once you realized you made a mistake in not purchasing it or rig up something, here. Why on earth does the professor owe you this? Is there a university policy that professors can't want you to use your books on the first day of class? Was the book actually completely unavailable because he made a mistake in ordering? It's nice that your other professors take their time to make it simpler for you, but it's probably not a requirement. And I really do not understand how you think that this is something bad on the part of the professor. It's not even really that strict.

Hell, you're the one paying money to learn Latin. You could look at this as making sure you get your money's worth instead of just dicking around for a couple of weeks.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:51 pm

For the record, I was taking it from his own posts that other people in his course had no trouble procuring the books. I've had profs who pulled similar stunts as yours, or courses where the bookstore utterly failed to even order the books. Never has Cez implied that that was the case for him, or that they only got the lists during class.

I'd also like to note that I have nothing in particular against CezeN as a poster, or in the past.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:14 pm

For the record, I was taking it from his own posts that other people in his course had no trouble procuring the books.
Just wanted to note that this is factually untrue. Your assumption re: availability of booklists pre-dates everything he said on the topic other than his original post that he didn't understand why his professor would assume everyone would have the book by then-tomorrow. And, of course, the only time he's talked about other people in class procuring the books, it was about someone having difficulty procuring it.

That isn't to say that your assumption was wrong. But let's not pretend that it was based on his post.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:16 pm

But it most certainly makes you a douche to insist that he's being irresponsible simply because you've made a lot of assumptions.

Dude, he outright stated he didn't want to buy it yet. Part of that was his dad not getting paid until that Friday and that is understandable. The other, bigger part, is he didn't feel like he needed to because the prof "should have" done what every other professor of his should have done and given it to him electronically. He felt like it was owed to him. I know you're fond of him because he looks up to you (and he should) but you're missing something that seems apparent to me and I'm thinking that's why.

You know that saying about things varying more within genders than between? I have this feeling that is true to schools, too. Until his school mandates that all professors make the books accessible electronically to students, I don't think anyone should go expecting them to be there.





Noodle, I added that part about not being his biggest fan to address that I am most likely very biased about my opinion on this. I suspect most people actually have neutral or positive feelings towards him.
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Postby GS » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:21 pm

I see a couple of issues going on here.

1) Syphon is right. There were some assumptions made about Cez being irresponsible right off the bat. But that is going to happen when you come off as whiny and entitled, insinuate that your dad is going to be buying your books and mention that you attend a private institution and work while at school for no real reason. Cez attending a private school and working/schooling at the same time have nothing to do with the Professor's expectations. And this coming off the trolling of the Pony thread, people are going to have some reactions.

2) More experience does make experience more valid. However, the time and space of the experience does matter in this instance. I am assuming that no one involved in this argument is currently attending or recently attended the University that Cez is in. In fact, I doubt anyone has graduated from Undergrad recently either. It has been four years for myself. So having more recent experience and at a completely different place does have credence, even if it is an extremely small sample.


Since you have seemed to take up Cez's cause, I will address you Syphon.

Let's just take Cez's experience. He has had two semesters of Undergrad. We will have to assume here because we don't know of Cez's class load outside of that he is currently enrolled in Latin. Because it is a nice round number and I think it assumes he is an overachiever, I will work off of the assumption that he has taken 5 classes a semester. First, 10 examples is an extremely small sample size. It leaves room for a lot of deviation. He even said that only the majority of his experience was that he wasn't expected to have the book the first week. So even with what he has given us in terms of data, we can only assume that at least half of the times, the book wasn't expected for the first week. Since this is basically an argument about previous results and expectations going forward, this is just an unacceptable sample size to base things off of. Coupled with the fact, that he has only taken Freshman level courses and the Professors could have been more lenient given that everyone is still adjusting to college life, his experiences could be even more skewed. I just don't think that the expectations are warranted given the experience.

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Postby Noodle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:57 pm

For my part the horse is dead and well beaten, but I want to clarify one thing. Like I said, I'm pretty much neutral on CezeN at the moment. I haven't seen much of him apart from the MLP thread and this one, and that's not enough to form an opinion. It's a shame that he's acting rather trollish in both of those threads, but anyone who's stayed around PWeb for any length of time has at least that redeeming quality going for them.
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:51 pm

Your drunk-driving analogy makes no sense.

Despite how it may look, professors are insanely busy. They don't generally have time for coddling students. They're there to teach those students, and it's not their responsibility to jolly along those who aren't keeping up. To be quite honest, the majority of undergrads are entitled and whiny, and profs quite quickly lose any patience for that.

That's not to say that they're unfeeling bastards - students who have genuine issues and are willing to work with the prof to sort them out are likely to find a sympathetic and generous ear. I screwed up royally in one of my MA classes, and even though I had an awful cold for two weeks prior, to this day it still feels like my responsibility. When he found out about the cold, my prof gave me the extension I hadn't asked for. When a student tells a prof, however, "I'm not ordering the books yet because I'm not sure I'm going to stay in the class", it sounds an awful lot like "I'm not convinced this class is worth my time", which is intensely irritating to a person who has likely dedicated years of their life to it. Not to mention that they know the class won't be worth the student's time if they don't keep up right from the start (this is especially true of Latin).

The fact that another prof was generous enough to share their resources is very nice of them. But in no way should it be considered an obligation. It's a really big favour that they're very generous to do. Students have no right to demand that sort of work or to be pissed off when one prof has better things to do. It's helpful and kind and should be appreciated in each instance as the above-and-beyond that it is. Not taken as a right or expected.

Or, concisely, I understand the disappointment that this time it was harder. The sense of entitlement is what bugs me (and probably Kirsten, too).

Am I a hardass bitch? Maybe. I'll be providing photocopies for the my first class, and after that, my students will be expected to have their s*** together. They're adults. I have far too much going on than to waste my time accommodating laziness. That said, if someone's in a bind, I don't mind helping out, but it's up to them to show me why I should.
If you don't understand it, I don't know how to help you.

Either way, I don't understand the relevance of saying "I'm not ordering the books yet because I'm not sure I'm going to stay in the class". That situation doesn't apply to me, and I doubt anyone would say that to a professor. In this situation, it's more "I don't have the book yet because I ordered it and it hasn't come" or "I don't have the book yet because I dont have the money for the books."

Professors, at my university, expect a significant amount of students ordering their books to get it cheaper - so I doubt he got off the impression of what you said from me asking "By what day will we need to have the textbooks?".

Quite frankly, I don't care about your general idea of how professors should be or what professors are - since they don't apply to how my professors have been and there might be a variety of different factors as to why that's the case.

Let me ask you something: Assuming you celebrate christmas, did you expect presents on Christmas day when you were say 13? Obviously any gift your parents give you comes out of their own generosity. However, after a certain frequency of generosity, do you not expect something as standard routine? Would you have a problem with a child saying "I don't understand why I didn't get presents on Christmas...I've gotten some for the past 10 years!" simply because christmas presents are not an obligation, despite how routine gift giving has become on that holiday?
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:59 pm

I think Cezen has a bit of a problem with analogies. His pot/MLP analogy was pretty out there as well.
I thought it obvious that it meant that the idea that you need to try something before you can judge is an invalid argument form considering it doesn't really apply to every situation.

I.E. I don't need to try pot before I can judge that it's wrong. I don't need to try parkour before I can judge that it's dangerous. And I, for sure, don't need to actually watch an episode of MLP before I can judge that it's pretty silly considering my age range/gender/societal norms.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer than this.
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:17 pm

GD- I'm not going to even address you, because you're obviously still extremely butthurt from the MLP thread. I get it, you don't like me. I don't care. My suggestion: Ignore me, like I will be ignoring you.
Let's just take Cez's experience. He has had two semesters of Undergrad. We will have to assume here because we don't know of Cez's class load outside of that he is currently enrolled in Latin. Because it is a nice round number and I think it assumes he is an overachiever, I will work off of the assumption that he has taken 5 classes a semester. First, 10 examples is an extremely small sample size. It leaves room for a lot of deviation. He even said that only the majority of his experience was that he wasn't expected to have the book the first week. So even with what he has given us in terms of data, we can only assume that at least half of the times, the book wasn't expected for the first week. Since this is basically an argument about previous results and expectations going forward, this is just an unacceptable sample size to base things off of. Coupled with the fact, that he has only taken Freshman level courses and the Professors could have been more lenient given that everyone is still adjusting to college life, his experiences could be even more skewed. I just don't think that the expectations are warranted given the experience.
If I said majority, it was because I was including this incident as the outlier time when I was actually expected to have the books by the second day of class.

I can't actually remember any previous professor doing that, and since I've already stated my previous experiences as the norm, I do think I would have remembered other times where a professor broke the norm.

Furthermore, this is a Latin 101 class. It should be considered in the same class classification of my previous freshman classes, where you theorized a couple of reasons why the professors might have been lenient, especially since it's an intro 100 level class.

So, even if you want to argue that more severe classes would have professors that expect more from their students, this Latin class shouldn't be considered one of them. Even then, none of my 200 level classes this semester have had teachers who expected us to have the book by the second day.

To add even more to this, considering my freshman level teachers never expected us to have the books so soon, shouldn't I expect this freshman level teacher to do the same? Ignoring the semi-small sample size, if my previous experiences were all the same - in all totality - doesn't that lend credit to the argument that the very next professor was more likely to do the same? Yes.

....Are my expectations warranted given the experience yet? I think so.

EDIT:
"There were some assumptions made about Cez being irresponsible right off the bat. But that is going to happen when you come off as whiny and entitled, insinuate that your dad is going to be buying your books and mention that you attend a private institution and work while at school for no real reason. Cez attending a private school and working/schooling at the same time have nothing to do with the Professor's expectations. And this coming off the trolling of the Pony thread, people are going to have some reactions.
"
Eh, if you look back, I mentioned I work because someone tried to give this off as "well, think about how you're gonna go about your future job" when I already have job experience - and will continue having job experience - for how I should handle myself at a job.

I mentioned the private university because one of the selling points of many of them is the small class size, where teachers actually care about their professors. On the otherhand, I imagine state schools with giant auditiorium size classes may have teachers who care less because its harder to get closer to a large group.

I probably mentioned my dad paying for my books to let you guys know that I wasn't waiting and not having the book because I was considering leaving the class, but because I just simply didn't have the money. And, because despite the general wealth of most people at my university - I assume that professors realize that not everyone is rich and can get their books like that *snaps*.

Anymore clarification needed as to any reasons for me saying any particular thing, please let me know.
Last edited by CezeN on Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wind Swept » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:25 pm

Quite frankly, I don't care about your general idea of how professors should be or what professors are - since they don't apply to how my professors have been and there might be a variety of different factors as to why that's the case.
Really? Isn't the whole point of posting in this thread was to learn from others about things you don't understand?

Let me try to sum this up: Your personal experience with professors to date is that they "understand" that not all students will have their books during the first week of classes. Hence, you posted in this thread about your confusion when confronted with a new experience.

The people here have attempted to help you understand that there are professors all over the world, in both private and public schools, that operate under the assumption students will have their books on the first day of class, and that this should not be at all surprising.

That's all.

But instead of saying, "Ah. Damn, that sucks. Thanks for the info." You said—and I'm pretty sure I heard this right—"No, that's not how it works, because I'm better than you—a god among mere mortals—and by extension, my professors should be better than that. This must be a mistake. Bow before me."
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:30 pm

Quite frankly, I don't care about your general idea of how professors should be or what professors are - since they don't apply to how my professors have been and there might be a variety of different factors as to why that's the case.
Really? Isn't the whole point of posting in this thread was to learn from others about things you don't understand?
Is that the point of this thread?
I don't understand why I can't get off the internet/computer and do stuff I consciously in my brain want to do more. Do I really need to play freecell five times instead of starting that movie or reading another chapter. No, I don't but there's something mindless and compelling about wasting time that I really don't understand because I'm always frustrated with myself afterwards.
i don't understand how we didn't have this thread a decade ago.

i doubly don't understand why alea didn't just make one instead of posting in the other thread.
Things I Don't Understand
How I became a brony.
... but definitely includes the males, who are the largest group of viewers (aged 18-35).
Speaking of things I don't understand...

Really, I'm not trying to put down MLP, but that doesn't make any sense. :?
How someone can be willing to spend 5000 to do surgery on their dog's mild neck pain but leave a mammary tumor in place for nearly a year so its had time to met all over, rendering surgery pointless..
So, is that the point of this thread?

Honestly, I was just venting. I wasn't seeking your advice or "wisdom".

I don't think the Original Post, and first couple posts, set a general precedent about what this thread was meant for that follows what you're saying. Even if it changed along the way, you can't assume I read the whole thread before posting.

In other words, I disagree with you.
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Postby GS » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:29 pm

First, my bad about the job thing. Didn't see that Noodle mentioned it.

You really need to work on your analogies. You are comparing Christmas, a holiday that celebrates the same thing, on the same day and comes once a year. To college classes, which all cover different subjects, with different expectations, run by different people. Doesn't work. Just like comparing pot to ponies or drunk driving to textbooks.

Given the different nature of each college class and the freedom of the professor to structure the class however he/she wants, 10 is not a semi-small sample size. It is not even a small sample size. It is an extremely small sample size.

And since you are about social norms and see professors are "human beings that can put themselves in the mind of their students", you should have brought it up during class. "Hey Professor X, I ordered my textbook online and am still waiting for it to come in. Is there anyway we can put the first couple chapters on the Blackboard site or have handouts for the first week of class? It seems to work well for other classes I've had." If it is what students expect, then other people will speak up. If not, then they won't. And if doesn't like that suggestion, then that sucks and you deal with it. But you got all butthurt and decided to blast him anonymously on a forum where you, apparently, don't care about anyone's opinion and like to troll people that don't fit into you social norm. s*** doesn't always go your way. Deal with it.

I'm not exactly sure why you turned into a huge dick all of a sudden, come on were a decently likable person other than this ridiculousness.

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Postby Mich » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:09 pm

Perhaps what should be learned from all of this is that people in this forum like helping other people. If any of us had good answers to the previous questions posted in this thread, we probably would have answered them. At last a question that many of us have experience in was posted, and many jumped at the chance. Most of the answers put forth were, in my opinion as someone who graduated twelve months ago from a publicly-funded United States college, reasonable and helpful in understanding the situation.

For other summaries, see GS' posts. We tend to agree with each other mostly. Plus the dude has awesome taste in video games.

But seriously, Cez, your reaction is somewhat concerning. I mean, we already have about five threads specifically for venting. Here people were trying to help you understand, and thus not be as upset about, this situation. I know you don't normally take "our" advice (the prom thread comes to mind), but you normally at least take it into consideration.

"Our" in quotes because I saw a hazardous conversation when it appeared and tried to stay out. But I think that you tend to be a pretty stand-up guy, if not one that can piss people off. You know, just like most of us tend to.
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:13 pm

First, my bad about the job thing. Didn't see that Noodle mentioned it.

You really need to work on your analogies. You are comparing Christmas, a holiday that celebrates the same thing, on the same day and comes once a year. To college classes, which all cover different subjects, with different expectations, run by different people. Doesn't work. Just like comparing pot to ponies or drunk driving to textbooks.

Given the different nature of each college class and the freedom of the professor to structure the class however he/she wants, 10 is not a semi-small sample size. It is not even a small sample size. It is an extremely small sample size.

And since you are about social norms and see professors are "human beings that can put themselves in the mind of their students", you should have brought it up during class. "Hey Professor X, I ordered my textbook online and am still waiting for it to come in. Is there anyway we can put the first couple chapters on the Blackboard site or have handouts for the first week of class? It seems to work well for other classes I've had." If it is what students expect, then other people will speak up. If not, then they won't. And if doesn't like that suggestion, then that sucks and you deal with it. But you got all butthurt and decided to blast him anonymously on a forum where you, apparently, don't care about anyone's opinion and like to troll people that don't fit into you social norm. s*** doesn't always go your way. Deal with it.

I'm not exactly sure why you turned into a huge dick all of a sudden, come on were a decently likable person other than this ridiculousness.
Cool.

And parents give their kids unecessary presents on Christmas, and kids expect it of them. I'm glad you can glaze over the specifics of what we were talking about in order to attempt to discredit the analogy, nontheless we were specifically talking about how I shouldn't expect acts of generosity despite them being common experience.

True, teachers differ in personality and parents don't - nontheless you don't expect your parents to randomly turn into a dick on Christmas ignoring how they usually act.

At the same time, I don't randomly expect my Latin 101 teacher to ignore the same common sense and empathy that drove all my other teachers - as well as a different Latin teacher - to not go into class with the expectations that students will all be prepared with the text by the second day.

I don't question why my English Lit teacher makes jokes about finally getting the permenant class and whether he's going to see someone again - and why he has put all the first couple of reading materials on Electronic Reserve. Why my Movement Fundamentals is giving the first lecture of the class - since the class is part lecture - at the end of the week after add/drop/swap.
It all seems like common sense opening week procedure for average teachers who know how to look at school from students perspective.

Nothing you've said has changed my opinion that I shouldn't be expecting my latin professor to be different from all my previous teachers and the other latin professor.

Considering I've taken 42 hours and 132 hours are required to graduate; I've taken just over 1/3 of all the classes I have to take to graduate. Being 1/3 the way through my graduation requirement, I think my 10 or so classes is a significant sample size - and definitely not as small as you're saying. So yes, I think it's a "semi-small sample size".

lol it's called venting; either way, I figured I could just ask a friend if she had the book and if I could borrow it AND that I'd just take good notes. The latter worked out for me. I guess that, and the empathetic teacher, fixed my "butthurt"(LOL).

And yes, I specifically don't care about many people's opinions on a vent post. Look up what "venting" is and then come back to me.

Nice trying trolling though, funny when the pot calls the kettle black.
Next time, just don't reply if you can't address my previous points - instead of coming at me with a nonsense post.

---And yes, we could continue going back and forth insulting each other. You can show me your e-dick, which I assume is huge considering how big of a dick you are, and I could posture up and wave mine around.

Orrrr, you could just back off and stop beating a dead horse of a thread. I'm replying in response to you and others, so obviously if you stop initiating, I'll stop replying. On the otherhand, me answering someone is obviously expected. So really - it's up to you.
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Postby zeroguy » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:16 pm

His pot/MLP analogy was pretty out there as well.
I think that was more apt than anyone realized. Ponies are a hell of a drug. (Weed is probably less damaging, really...)

Also, Syphon, I don't know if you care at all, but I'd just like to say that I agree with quite a bit of what you've said here, and I don't find your style of posting here overtly pompous/condescending like I have whined about before. So, uh, *thumbsup*

This thread in general, on the other hand, has somehow become all kinds of ridiculous...
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Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:27 pm

Perhaps what should be learned from all of this is that people in this forum like helping other people. If any of us had good answers to the previous questions posted in this thread, we probably would have answered them. At last a question that many of us have experience in was posted, and many jumped at the chance. Most of the answers put forth were, in my opinion as someone who graduated twelve months ago from a publicly-funded United States college, reasonable and helpful in understanding the situation.

But seriously, Cez, your reaction is somewhat concerning. I mean, we already have about five threads specifically for venting. Here people were trying to help you understand, and thus not be as upset about, this situation. I know you don't normally take "our" advice (the prom thread comes to mind), but you normally at least take it into consideration.
"Heaven forbid he should expect you to be prepared for class. Welcome to university."
I don't understand why my Latin professor would assume, while ignoring the add/drop your classes time period, that we would all have our books by Friday.

What about the people that ordered books? What about the people who's dad's don't get paid till Friday? C'mon, you were a decently likeable teacher other than that ridiculousness.
Heaven forbid he should expect you to be prepared for class. Welcome to university. And sorry, but with Latin, you really do need the textbook, it's not something you can cram at the end of term.
Do you guys typically use condescending language when trying to help someone? Maybe I would have reacted differently if they started "helping" me in a positive way, instead of in a sarcastic/derogatory way that also sorta implies I'm going to cram for the class like a bad student.

In other words, I percieved some douchiness in those replies - and replied in same taste.

EDIT: Oh, and it goes without saying that I didn't even expect a reply to my vent post, in the first place. I thought the "I know Google is my friend, but I want to ask you" or whatever thread is the one people go to when they specifically want help/advice from people on this forum.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:36 pm

Hiya, all! So, I'm not a mod, meaning I can't quite ask with any sort of force but I do have this nifty emoticon Image, so I'm hoping that's enough.

Can we please accept that we all disagree with whatever we disagree with and move on now? It's like feeding a bezoar. We all know we're not supposed to feed those, right?

I ask not because I've finally seen the light and think this guy is right, I ask because I believe him when he says he'll Energizer Bunny this and keep going...and going...and going.
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Postby GS » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:49 pm

Calling me a troll and I spout non-sense? That is hilarious. So I respond to your post and the amazing analogies that only you think work. It is great that you think your professors should treat you like Mommy and Daddy.

You respond to nothing, call me a troll, use the pot kettle quote, claim I didn't respond to anything, then refer to my "e-dick" and how it is stupid to continue. In my common experience, that is what we like to call classic troll behavior.

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Postby thoughtreader » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:02 am

let me ask you something: Assuming you celebrate christmas, did you expect presents on Christmas day when you were say 13? Obviously any gift your parents give you comes out of their own generosity. However, after a certain frequency of generosity, do you not expect something as standard routine? Would you have a problem with a child saying "I don't understand why I didn't get presents on Christmas...I've gotten some for the past 10 years!" simply because christmas presents are not an obligation, despite how routine gift giving has become on that holiday?
I'd just like to say that my family celebrates Christmas, but even as a child I never expected gifts. Christmas was about family and good food, and yes sometimes I got a present. But sometimes I didn't and i was never angry or upset or resentful that my family couldn't afford to get me something because they loved me. Even when we didn't have power or water in our house. Even when we survived off food banks and food stamps. I was loved by to wonderful parents who provided for me.
So no I never expected a gift on christmas.

And as far as your original post. You were lucky enough to have some very understanding profs you first year. And it sucks that this one didn't act the way you expected. And hey its good that the second prof was nice enough to post the material and that you took good notes. So it all worked out this time, but maybe you can learn from it and realizes that not all professors will act like the ones you have had before. And order the books as soon as you can. Or if you you can't, for whatever reason, deal with it.

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Postby Gravity Defier » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:31 am

Ooh, look, guys! Something shiny over in that other thread! We should all go see what that is. *nod*


I think at this point it feels like a dogpile to him and he's not going to change his mind, either out of conviction of righteousness or pride and I have to say, I can certainly understand feeling like I have to defend myself to people who Just Don't Get It.

Whether he is in the right about understanding it or not is a moot point now; now the question is whether or not the people who disagree are in the right for continuing the conversation when it is only like to result in further insults (I know, I'm guilty of this and I'm sorry I let my anger lead me to that).

So really, while I get that he is saying things that are angering or annoying, I would like to ask again that maybe we let this thread cool down for a bit or use it still, but for unrelated things.



With that said, I don't understand why it is I'm still awake.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:56 am

EDIT: Oh, and it goes without saying that I didn't even expect a reply to my vent post, in the first place. I thought the "I know Google is my friend, but I want to ask you" or whatever thread is the one people go to when they specifically want help/advice from people on this forum.
[Mod]My understanding has always been that unless it's Bob or you specifically request no replies, you should always expect the possibility of replies. If I'm wrong on this or something has changed, someone please let me know.[/Mod]

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Postby Wind Swept » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:56 am

Do you guys typically use condescending language when trying to help someone?
Always.

@Mods: Can we just split all this crap into a new thread and lock it? I was really quite interested in discussing the OP, but this thread was already a complete train wreck by the time I opened it.
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