New Board Section

[Eaquae Legit]

Yes, someone is putting SOMETHING up, and it seems to be both apt and fun. Kudos!

Alea, I like the idea of using Taal's post for the history. I think we should keep it, personally. I also like the idea of adding a bit more forum history.

[Gravity Defier]

Thanks for the feedback. :)

It's much more difficult than I expected, coming up with a forum history. Besides the two crashes, I'm at a loss as to what I could possibly say that would explain anything to anyone who hasn't been here.


Will is trying to think of a different/better way to show the mod history. I'm not married to the table but I am rather set on that information somehow being available and in a manner that involves little to no explanation on my part beyond what the table currently does. It is not, by the way, complete as of yet. I have no idea how to list anything for 2011 -include John? include Ami? Include any other inactive mods? Add Wil and Will and move Jan as site owner? Are we going to have mini-mods when we move?

This page has taken a lot of my time today, even though it hasn't been time spent in one big block.

I did some messing around in the culture area, too, but I'm waiting on Wil to let me know something's been added so I can throw up the rest of both epics.


Jan, in case you're wondering where your part will go, it's the main page, where the mumbo-jumbo currently is and where the About Us link is nested. You can, by all means, have more of a part in the About Us page but I wanted to err on the side of giving you less to do, not more.

[Gravity Defier]

Okey pokey, here's the best I could do for a first draft on the forum history. As always, opinions (even if you think it'll hurt my feelings) would be great because I'm not the best when it comes to writing and clarity and other such important things. I need to add something about the new forum structure, since I made such a big deal about it all throughout, so I'll get to that if I can get a thumbs up or thumbs down on what's done so far. Also, should there be pictures or keep it strictly text? I wouldn't add anything you all haven't seen (or possibly seen, look in FAQ, page 2 for what I have) but I'm not sure if we really want to add pictures to it. Do we want to throw stuff in there about the different mods we've had and how mini-mods came about? Anything else I didn't add that I should have? Stuff I should take out? Anyone else want to attempt? Anyhow.

When the Philotic Web first went active in July 2000, the message board was comprised of five forums under a single, generic Forum heading. They were: General Discussion, New Releases, Random Speculations, The Enderverse, and Milagre Town Square. Shortly thereafter, the board was split into four sections: The Novels- containing the General Discussion and New Releases forums- The Movie, which contained the Random Speculations forum- The Science, which contained The Enderverse forum- and The Community, which contained the Milagre Town Square forum.

It remained organized as such until the forum crashed in late October of 2001. The message board was brought back online on November 4, 2001 but all posts were lost to the crash and all members were forced to re-register. In order to distinguish between the first and second versions of the board, they were given the names of Ye Olde Pweb and Pweb.

In 2002, the board was once again revised and reorganized to accomodate more forums and operate as an OpenBB community. The Novels section became The Books, housing the following forums: Ender Novels, The Enderverse and Other OSC Works. The Movie section newly contained the Merchandising forum, alongside the Random Speculations forum, and
The Community added an Announcements forum to the already present Milagre Town Square.

While the board was continually tweaked and customized between 2002 and early 2004, including custom banners and color scheme changes, the number of forums held at seven until mid-2004, when a fourth section, The Jeesh Lounge, was added to house three new forums: The Foyer, The Pweb Book Club, and the Pweb Film club, with the Foyer serving as an area to discuss proposed additional clubs. At one point between 2004 and 2006, an eleventh forum, The Game Room, was created to help clear Milagre Town Square of clutter. This was initially added to the Community.

There were no further changes of note until September of 2006, when, for the second time in the history of the board, there was a crash in which all board history was lost. When the forum was brought back online on September 26, 2006, seventeen days after the crash, it was brought back without the remainder of the Philotic Web site and it utilized the phpBB forum software. The only structural change of note was switching the locations of The Foyer and the Game Room, putting the former as part of the Community and the latter as part of the Jeesh Lounge.

Needing a way to once again differentiate between the different versions of the message board, the original board maintained its title as Ye Olde Pweb, the second version became Pweb II, and the newest version was dubbed Pweb 3.0.

The webmaster, Amka, designed a homepage to serve as a placeholder for the site's eventual return but after an unknown time removed it, leaving the message board as the sole representation of what was once a comprehensive fan resource. Over the years, Amka has had increasingly less participation in the site's upkeep, while maintaining the sole means of control needed to improve upon the site.

In late 2010, after some deliberation, the members of the message board decided it would be in the best interests of the board if the site were returned to it's original purpose as a fan resource.

[Young Val]

All Content Copyright © 2000-2011 philoticweb.org Unless Otherwise Noted

I know we're not officially up and running yet, but if you're going to put this at the bottom of the page, you need to actually "note" the source/copyright information for the quote on the top of The Books section. I know it's probably a placeholder right now, and that's fine. But eventually someone needs to email OSC or his people and get permission and the proper copyright notice for any quotes we use. Even if you're going to skip asking permission and claim the quote is fair use you should include the copyright info.


ETA: Now when I refresh the page I get rotating quotes from Alea. When I posted this there was a quote from the books up there. Something Graff said, though the exact quote escapes me.

Again, not trying to be bitchy about this--it's just that...this (permissions stuff, etc) is what I do.

[steph]

I am with you on this, Kelly. I think the site needs to be perfectly legitimate in every way. I don't want to step on anyone's toes and/or make anyone mad.

[Wil]

Well, first, I think Card is very much pro fan-work.

Second, AFAIK, quotes are very much protected under fair-use laws.

Third, one of you could have taken the initiative if you felt it important... this is supposed to be a community effort. However, Alea has gone ahead and contacted one of Card's assistants.

[Young Val]

:::shrug:::

Even if someone is "very much pro fan-work" it is polite to ask. At the very worst, he says, "No, but thanks for asking." More likely he'll say, "Of course, that is fine! There is no need to ask!" Either way, since I managed permissions for the bulk of my career, I can tell you that there are authors and estates determined to be properly cited for all of their work, even in fair use instances. I'm not saying Card is the same. Someone at some point asked for my thoughts on using quotes from the books, and that's the official line. Given my career it would be irresponsible of me to say anything else.

And yes, fair use, great. You should still properly source your fair use quotes, even if you don't seek permission.

As for doing it myself, you're right. I could have done so. I'm a big girl and could easily have looked up some email address for someone somewhere and done it. Call me lazy, whatever. I'm more or less indifferent to the move and have only chimed in on this topic because I was specifically asked.

Also, from the article you linked (my emphasis):

Once you publish fiction, Ms. Rowling, anybody is free to write about it, to comment on it, and to quote liberally from it, as long as the source is cited.

Thanks for doing it, Alea. I'm sure it will all be fine and I'll have kicked up a big fuss about nothing.

[Rei]

And yes, fair use, great. You should still properly source your fair use quotes, even if you don't seek permission.

As an academic I'm apt to agree. Even if we cannot put a page number because the quotes are shifting, we can at least give the information for which books are being cited. It's just what you do.

[Wil]

The one real quote that is currently there does in fact have three parts. The quote, who the quote is from, and the source of the quote. It looks like this:

"Human beings are free except when humanity needs them. Maybe humanity needs you. To do something. Maybe humanity needs me—to find out what you're good for. We might both do despicable things, Ender, but if humankind survives, then we were good tools."
- Col. Graff, Ender's Game

Does this not do exactly what you said it should do already?

[Young Val]

Technically? No. The author isn't cited, for one thing.

I wash my hands of it, though. I'm sure there's no need to be as nitpicky as I'm being, and I'm afraid I can't be otherwise given my chosen profession. I'm sure it will all be just fine, regardless.

I think the new site looks fantastic. I think it will be great to have it up and running. Other than that, I'll just leave the rest of you to it, then.

[Wil]

The copyright could probably be changed to address this. For example, something like:

All Content Copyright 2000-2011 The Philotic Web Unless Otherwise Specified.
The Philotic Web is not associated with Orson Scott Card, Tor, or any of the individuals or companies associated with producing and publishing Ender's Game, the sequels and spinoffs, short stories, and movies.

Or whatever that legal mumbo-jumbo should be.

[Gravity Defier]

Dear Alea,

Thanks for writing -- glad to hear Philotic Web is coming back! Are any of the original people still part of it?

Anyway, I ran your request by Mr. Card, and this was his response:

"All they've done in the past is either fair-use (short quotes) or they had, and continue to have, my permission."

Hope that helps.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

Kathleen

[Rei]

Hurrah! You are very awesome, doing this, Alea

[ender1]

I've been meaning to start reading EiE so I can continue work on the timeline...

[Young Val]

[steph]

Alea, you're awesome. Thanks for doing that for us. Love you.

[zeldagirl1234]

Uh...so, I checked Pweb before I went on Circ at 4 and checked now, when I got home, and you made it not-the-same. I hope I have a good screen capture (I'm sure I do), otherwise, I'll make you hide this for me later. I guess I better get a screen capture of this here soon.

Let's see, new site should have:

Books: list of, maybe short blurbs on, covers of
Movie news: this will have hardly anything at all, I suspect
Pop Culture/Fan Works: comics, art, music stuff, etc. There's a band named after the book, who I was in contact with around April; awesome and friendly, near as I could tell.
Technology: if Steve has stuff that wasn't part of the book dealie that came out

Adam has stuff, if he'd ever respond to inquiries about that, I'd be more able and willing to start throwing stuff this way.

Wait. WHAT?@?@ THERES A BAND NAMED AFTER IT!?!? SEND ME LINK!!!!!!!!!! :DDDD

[Gravity Defier]

Thank you for the support but Wil has done approximately 99.9% of anything that was actually challenging, so it is more appropriate that it get sent in that direction. :)


I also have no idea what I should tell Kathleen re: original people being involved. "Sure! They lurk, sometimes!"

-------------------------------------------------------

Since I'm in here and <3 transparency, there have been doubts raised about the design on the site, again, mostly off board. Those who have expressed doubt have not, to my knowledge, given any alternatives or even helpful suggestions beyond make the Earth smaller. So, whether posted by actual usernames or Confessions, or by PM to Jan, Wil, or myself, I am suggesting the compromise that any such alternatives or further suggestions be shared by March 1, or we go forth with what we have. Fair?

If you think the fellow isn't listening to suggestions already being made (heard that, too), that's a different issue that can likewise be addressed. Honestly, I think he's been pretty damn reasonable, given he's doing this out of the kindness of his ticker and not a single other soul has offered to put in as much time or effort, but I also don't have any issues with the state of the site, so take that how you will.


For those who like what you see, telling Wil or me that we're on the right path is so very much appreciated but not actually necessary.

Beyond actual site design, any comments or concerns on content is also very much appreciated (for instance, Kelly's concern over citations). However, I do ask, pretty pretty please, that where such concerns are raised, that as much relevant information be included (like, where/why you think we went wrong, suggestions and, where applicable examples, for fixing). We're not mind readers and this is a first for me, not sure about Wil, so there's just going to be things we don't know.

People who are indifferent to the point of silence, to be honest, I'm frustrated most by you all but I can't make you care, nor do I have any further interest in trying. If I, or Wil, get met with silence from here on out on any given thing, I'm going to assume it's fine and any complaints made thereafter will be duly, and happily, ignored.

Think that's it about that.

--------------------------------------------------------

And zelda, I truly meant it when I said the band was named after the book. Hopefully that will point you in the right direction. :)

[mr_thebrain]

honestly, i have many years of web design under my belt. and while i would have loved to be a part of rebuilding pweb, i knew better. when you do art for clients, it's pretty much impossible to please everyone. the more clients, the more opinions, the harder it is to finish the art because everyone has their two cents and are basically no help. web design is art. and it's not so bad if it's a professional website. but when it's something that's near and dear to so many people such as pweb is, there's no getting it 100% correct.

i thank wil for doing the work, and i offer no tips to make the site better. i only say: don't let the lack of support, or other people's critiques get you down. it's looking good. so, way to go wil.

[Luet]

People who are indifferent to the point of silence, to be honest, I'm frustrated most by you all but I can't make you care, nor do I have any further interest in trying. If I, or Wil, get met with silence from here on out on any given thing, I'm going to assume it's fine and any complaints made thereafter will be duly, and happily, ignored.

I have been mostly silent but I have also not complained about a thing, on or off board. I'm just not sure why silence in this case is so frustrating to you personally. I would be fine if pweb stayed the way it is but only because it's current limitations do not have any specific effect on me. I understand why others want to make the move, so that is also totally fine with me. I have next to no input on the aesthetic aspect of things. Sadly, I don't see a difference when Wil makes changes after suggestions are made. It literally all looks the same to me. I, perhaps wrongly, have assumed that my silence means that I'm fine with whatever the people who want to make the move decide. I really am sorry if that has hurt your feelings.

[zeldagirl1234]

i have to agree with Luet. I know I'm not really worth much on here, but I would still like to put in my input. Although a fancier or different site may be better in some ways, the simplicity of this one is also rather appealing. It is quick and easy to navigate, so please keep that in mind if you make a new website.


P.S thanks for showing me the band :DDD

[Gravity Defier]

I'll try to explain but I have to say, I've tried off the board with two someones and those particular conversations made me want to bash my head into the wall, not because they couldn't agree with me but because they couldn't understand what I meant in the first place, no matter which direction I approached it from.

To be clear, I don't know if Wil is bothered by the silence and I won't presume to speak for him on that. Everything I said above was me, trying to make sure things are moving along, if they're going to be, and I see no one else taking the reins. Maybe they are and it's happening behind closed doors (PM) but that is kind of irritating, perhaps for irrational reasons. Which kind of gets to at least part of my answer on this:

I'm just not sure why silence in this case is so frustrating to you personally.

At the time, there seemed to be a lot of excitement over the idea. I think, looking back, that it was the same two or three excited people being very vocal but at the time, it felt like a group decision and not just that, it felt like more than a "Yeah, sure, whatever, don't care as long as I can keep posting." There were some who said basically that but the overall sense I had then was positive, with some conviction/enthusiasm behind it.

I admit, I also at the time was remembering some posts from right after the last crash, in which people had pledged their support/help to Ami in that doomed to never happen rebuild, people who are still active now. On a rational level, I know that was 4.5 years ago, more or less, and they have every right to have changed their minds in that time and I'm a lunatic for even irrationally thinking otherwise...but, well, that visible/obvious loss of enthusiasm for Pweb as a whole kind of fed into my admittedly overly pessimistic belief that the sky is falling and new blood is our only hope.

So, I had this idea that it really was going to be a community effort, that people would find ways to be supportive, be it technically oriented support or otherwise.

That was dumb of me. I know better now.

So far, Wil has done all the design stuff, Will has done some timeline stuff, I have done some "About us" and culture stuff. Three of us. Even the original group had double that. Oh, Paul told me, after one of my rants, that it requires a certain fanboy-ishness that most of us have long lost and I don't doubt the veracity of that comment one bit.

But it still boggles my mind how people could say they care about the forum and not think it a wise investment to work on the part that will bring people in and keep it going. More and more often we're having days where there will be one whole post the entire board over, for the entire day. People are getting busy, with work, with kids, with friends, with school, whatever. I hear certain ones say "Oh, but I'm reading!" and I can't help but think, "So what? What if we all switch to lurker mode and just read? What then? What's left?"

If we want to make the argument that some of us are just here to be near friends, I had one of the most important people on this board tell me Pweb bores them and that's partly to blame for their lack of presence. Hell, Cameron said as much about himself in a Bob entry. I panicked some over comments like that, I will admit that I did.

I get tired of the "Pweb goes through phases" argument, too, though I'm sure people get tired of my "Pweb is going to die..." ranting. Argue all you want for phases, we do have them after all, but I can't really conceive of anyone telling me with a straight face that the slow phases aren't coming more often and for longer lengths.

All of that makes me want, all the more, to get this site going so that hopefully people will stumble upon us and liven things up. I get excited again, all pumped up, try to share that with the very people I'm trying to help, who mean the world to me for all the support I've unconditionally gotten, and cricket. It's like talking to a wall. If people want to ignore my posts in Milagre, cool. I know I'm silly for one half and depressing for the other, not to mention the world's most broken record ever, so I don't take that personally. But this, this isn't about me, it's about trying to keep this place going and hearing nothing at all, not complaints or otherwise didn't come across so much as "Everything's fine, keep it up, see no reason to pipe up" as it came across as "I really can't be bothered to give a s*** enough to even say, 'Thanks, Wil. I can see how this will be good for the community and I appreciate it.'" He has tried and I have tried to get feedback throughout and we've been met with a resounding chorus of mostly nothing at all.

And because no one else is stepping up to help even that much, let alone with building the content, it all falls on him, me, and Will. How can I not take it personally? Or, rather, what if I do stop taking it personally? If I start reacting the way everyone else has, nothing would get done because Wil wouldn't have any direction from any members.

So, as I said in Milagre, if people are really that indifferent, if they're really okay with where the board is heading assuming we don't get a site put back up, then please speak up on that so I can stop wasting time that I could otherwise use on things around me here and I'll tell Wil he should do the same. I don't need to do this. It was a suggestion months ago, it's a bit of a headache now, and quite frankly, the board itself is losing my attention because I can't risk, emotionally, the fallout of caring as much as I do and watching people who matter to me look like their lives are taking them away from here more and more. The silence feels like a big middle finger to the entire idea of a new site, just the way the silence in Milagre at times feels like a big middle finger to the forum (to me).



If that doesn't clarify, then I'm afraid nothing will because that's all I've got.

[mr_thebrain]

you know pweb has been around for 10 years for a reason. partly because it keeps getting paid for. and maybe the change of hands puts that at risk... but whatever. it's been around 10 years because there's always a group of people here to keep it alive. even when it's boring. it's still here. i don't think as long as the payments keep getting made, that it'll ever truly die. too many people invested. and while some go, others come in. it IS a cycle. it always has been. in short, you worry too much.

as for the lack of help or enthusiasm: we all have lives. even if it is because we're reading a book and don't want to take the time to help.... that's kind of why everyone's here... a book. yeah... so there. i want to help, i want to contribute, but there's no way i have time to. i barely have enough time to think out this post. and when i do have time, i want to relax. sue me. i've been coming here for 10 years, i don't have to prove my devotion to pweb.

still, i'm assuming once the base of the site is up and running and the forum is moved over, and people see the lack of information, there may be some more contribution. give it time. it honestly hasn't been THAT long.

i hope that didn't come across nasty in any way. my mood has been a little off lately with my home life being what it is. don't read much into it.

[Gravity Defier]

you worry too much.

True enough.

as for the lack of help or enthusiasm: we all have lives.

Right. As much as I harp on mine, it's really no more or less exciting than most here.

i don't have to prove my devotion to pweb.

True, no one has to. My disappointment stems from no one wanting to.



No matter. I've gone on long enough about all this and posted that to try to help Nomi understand where I'm coming from. At this point, if the site never happens, I won't feel bad about that.

[Wil]

To help things along, I have compiled (one) (two) different variations of a more "traditional" website design. It's more boring, more 'bloggish', and more white, but maybe that'll appeal to a wider audience.

[Rei]

I prefer what is currently up (as I find it easy to read and it has a unique style which I find quite fitting), but will defer to general consensus.

[waffleman]

Since when is ordinary good. Im pretty sure you guys were not that worried about new members but about the progression of the already built community.

I personally hate the alternate looks. They get rid of the spark of the cool new page and make it into some boring average page. I think the current design will be more attractive to anyone then the alternate looks.

[Syphon the Sun]

Wil, if I haven't said this before (or enough): thank you. You have a million times the patience I do. I haven't said much, mostly because I've been overall impressed with the look and have no suggestions for changes. Which means I definitely like what's currently up over the two alternates.

[steph]

Wil, if I haven't said this before (or enough): thank you. You have a million times the patience I do. I haven't said much, mostly because I've been overall impressed with the look and have no suggestions for changes. Which means I definitely like what's currently up over the two alternates.

This. Thank you for all your hard work. I like what you've done.

[Bean_wannabe]

I was enthusiastic, but was somewhat put off by the 'if you have any content, post it here and one of us responsible people will put it on the site' attitude. I think I envisaged a more wiki-style thing, where we could add and modify content on-the-fly, a bit at a time, rather than having to submit complete essays for moderation.

I will still probably contribute, but it requires a lot more of a time commitment to write up a full page than just piece one together over time. And as for the 'no-one wants to get involved', I have offered before and was pretty much ignored.

That sounds somewhat more ranty than what I intended, so sorry.

[Eaquae Legit]

To help things along, I have compiled (one) (two) different variations of a more "traditional" website design. It's more boring, more 'bloggish', and more white, but maybe that'll appeal to a wider audience.

I don't like either of those as much as I do the one that is up. I say, go with it.

If someone wants to tell me of a minor, non-technical thing or things that I can do while I'm procrastinating from schoolwork, I'm happy to do them. I'm not good with technical, and I have to do small bites due to school.

Perhaps I can work on definitions? I can't commit to whole encyclopedia entries, but I can do shorter stuff. Is there a need for that in what we collectively are envisioning? (Also I only have two books here and that is not a lot, so I can't do proper referencing mostly.)

[mr_thebrain]

dang alea, you made everyone feel guilty.

i don't like the new alternates either.

[Gravity Defier]

dang alea, you made everyone feel guilty.

I only meant to give a nudge, then to answer Nomi (whose feelings I didn't want to hurt, if I did). I play dirty. What a [not-nice-person]. Sorry.


Addressing these, since I saw a post before it was deleted. Thank you for the opinion, by the way, Will.

Having the Earth be that big is distracting to my eyes. Plus if it is smaller it'll bring the categories higher on the page, which seem too low when firefox is full screen.

Works on my netbook in full screen now, without needing to scroll.Made the earth a little bit smaller.

Clarification is needed, please. Syphon and Wil (and I) had no issues with scrolling on the various computers/devices, so if it is okay to consider that addressed, I'd like to do that.

You and Mitchi (I think it was her) both mentioned issues with distractions/size of Earth. Are you thinking it should be smaller or altogether gotten ridden of and replaced? If the former, I will kindly ask Wil to do a mock-up, if it's not too much of a bother, of what it would look like smaller if you'll indicate what percentage you'd like to see it as. Half as big, a quarter as big? If it's the latter, until you provide a suggestion for what might go in its place, I don't think you're making a reasonable request.

Why not put the menu across the top between the globe and search box instead of down the side? Although horizontal scrolling would be worse than vertical, even the smallest resolutions should be wide enough if you scale it right.

Design decision. Decided that it looked better being vertical.

Still not quite sold on the vertical menu.

Between you and Josh, you're wanting to see a horizontal menu across the top. Again, I'll ask Wil to do a mock-up here.


Keep in mind, he doesn't have to, I have no more power over him than any person does over another, but maybe if we ask nicely, he'll show us what that might look like.


If/when he does both mock-ups -smaller earth and horizontal menu- I think we'll do this the democratic way. A poll can go up with the following options:

-Keep the current design, as is
-New design: smaller earth, current menu
-New design: current earth, horizontal menu
-New design: smaller earth, horizontal menu

Most votes is the way we go. If you have a more fair suggestion, I would like to hear it. March 1 deadline on alternatives.


Now, B_w, first, I am genuinely sorry you got that impression. I think it's a fair enough impression to have gotten, if not an entirely accurate one (I can't figure out if that's saying what I want it to say; you aren't being inaccurate). I'll address the easier part first.

As to your being ignored, whether or not it actually is my fault, I feel like it is, so I'd like to apologize. I had many a conversations with Wil in which I mentioned I didn't want to assume any major decision making roles, that I wanted my opinions to be heard but not the overriding one. In other words, I didn't want to lead. There was the desire to avoid taking that from Jan, who I still believe is the best person to be calling the shots thanks to her tendency to not throw hissy fits the way I can and do. I figured between her and webmaster-Wil, there were enough people "in charge." I've seen places where there are one too many chiefs and not enough indians...not pretty. So, it wasn't that you were intentionally ignored -at least I hope not- so much as I wasn't in a position to act upon anything and thought it best to let our fearless leaders address things.

As to the responsibility of adding content.

Wil explained to me, and I think he needs to explain to everyone, how that can work. If I'm not mistaken, there are three levels of users, beyond regular posters. Admin -control over board and site- mods -control over board only- and possibly a third that only has control over site update.

This was my particular opinion. There should be maybe three admins. I put forth Jan and Wil, and maybe Will; can't remember, to be honest. I asked that if Wil hosted the site, he make sure Will and Jan had access to whatever it is we lost control of with Ami, so that we're never screwed over again.

Mods, I think there should be a small handful. No more mini-mods, as I think the two clubs that required them weren't successful enough to warrant needing them. Active mods should stay, and to not be entirely insulting, oldies should retain as well. So, EL, Adam, Rahl, Taal, Steve. Really, the last four would be because of everything they've done in the past. Like an honorary title. EL is busy but between her and Jan, and our ability to mostly self-moderate, I don't think adding any further mods would be necessary (until proven otherwise). Hegemon loses his title, as far as I'm concerned.

Content updaters, I think should be open to anyone showing interest who is also established in the community and trustworthy; you, B_w, are and I would personally be very grateful for any help you would be willing to provide. If I'm not completely talking out my ass on the levels of accessibility/control, if you were still interested in looking up book covers, Goodreads is a great place to start. They should be formatted to the same size and kept clearly labeled; they can then be uploaded to the server, I imagine and you can mess with organizing them on the Books pages.

My only concern with opening it up more like a wiki, for content additions, and I do have concern, is easily enough addressed I think that it shouldn't stop it from happening. Basically, I'd worry a bit about editing others' work or being purposefully malicious. I think I'd be okay with grammatical and format edits without asking for permission but would have some issue with content edits without asking permission. However, if people PMed or otherwise contacted whoever is in charge (or added the content, if you know) to make sure proposed changes were okay, then my concern falls by the wayside. I just don't want compeltely open access to any old (read: mostly new, unknown) member because you never know when someone's going to troll.



Ali, my dear, I think definitions would be awesome. Even just finding quotes to rotate so we can get my blizzard/puberty quotes down would be great help.

Anyhow, that's my two cents on everything.

[ender1]

You and Mitchi (I think it was her) both mentioned issues with distractions/size of Earth. Are you thinking it should be smaller or altogether gotten ridden of and replaced? If the former, I will kindly ask Wil to do a mock-up, if it's not too much of a bother, of what it would look like smaller if you'll indicate what percentage you'd like to see it as. Half as big, a quarter as big? If it's the latter, until you provide a suggestion for what might go in its place, I don't think you're making a reasonable request.

I'd probably start out at 75% of its current size. It wouldn;t look too ridiculous at that size and it would allow more content on the page without having to scroll. On Nicole's laptop with firefox fullcreen it is just bearable.

Now that'd you've mentioned it, Will might actually care.

Keep in mind, he doesn't have to, I have no more power over him than any person does over another, but maybe if we ask nicely, he'll show us what that might look like.

It's a community, if people in the community have a ideas they should at least be acknowledged, even if they aren't liked by him. This is for everyone, not just him.

[Wil]

A trendier design idea with a fixed-width content area, sans Earth, horizontal menu.

The look is largely unimportant. The way I've designed the website, mostly from the urgings of several people here to use DIV's, the look and layout is easily changed to be whatever anyone wants it to be. The problems with the current layout -- the large Earth, the vertical menu, the not-fixed width, etc -- aren't that important.

What is important is the content. Content is what needs the most work, and the content is largely independent of layout. If I gave the impression that one of 'us' responsible people would post content, that is not what I meant. I'm willing to give anyone and everyone who wants access to editing capabilities that option, I just feel it important that we limit this access to those that truly are willing to work on the content. It is just that, some people might be overwhelmed with the number of options that are available when you are an editor. For those that would like to contribute content, but don't want to worry about formatting, then content posted here can be copied over by others.

The problem is, as mr_thebrain so aptly put it, is that I'm trying to please half a dozen (or more) member's at once. If it were just one person requesting the page, of course I would go with what they want. But, frankly, I'm not getting anything out of this but what was enjoyment. I have gone to other members directly for their opinions, as staring at the same design for several hours makes you lose sight of the bigger picture. The little feedback I've gotten from here has been helpful, but not as helpful as speaking directly to someone and making real-time changes. I read everything posted here, and I will (and have) make changes based upon feedback received. As both a member and as the one doing the work, I believe it is well within my rights to make the final decision on the art based both upon what I find appealing and what others have suggested. If this is such a hard concept for some of you to grasp, then by all means you're welcome to take over -- Jan has every bit of the server information.