Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

[Gravity Defier]

Even when I wasn't active here it was nice to always know that it was here. That you were here.

Pweb to Noodle: [We] will be right here waiting for you.

[Dr. Mobius]

But on the subject of owning it, I think it should be a community wide thing for payment. Obviously voluntary, but I think setting up a paypal account for donations would easy enough. I would certainly be will to pay the monthly costs for whomever takes over the hosting duty if that actually happens.

That was part of my original plan last winter. The only issue I can think of with it would be whose name will the bank and paypal accounts be in? Or should we make Pweb a separate legal entity so it can have its own accounts? I know Sheroes did something like that when Tammy turned over ownership of that board to the mod team, but I don't know how we'd do that or if it's even really necessary.

[Noodle]

To make myself a little clearer.

I'm a part of a gaming community that has been around for 12 years now and the core of the group is still active, but since we haven't had a game that all of us agree on for a few years, the outliers are not around anymore. When we were founded, one member took it on himself to be the one to pay for hosting the website and forums and he asked for donations quarterly to help defray the costs.

When the site was in its prime, we had lots of volunteers donating regularly, and he often ended up with a surplus of funds. We all trusted him, and he put the money away and asked for less the next quarter. The system worked great. But then as the community shrank, so did the donations, and he wasn't making enough to cover costs of hosting. For a while, he was perfectly happy making up the difference so the site could stay online. Eventually the donations all but dried up and he was bearing the brunt of the costs for a site with very few members. He started to resent the site because it was a burden on him and he was paying for a site that was barely used. He didn't want to close the doors, because of the nature of the group, if a game comes out that catches our attention, we'll be back in full swing, and as active as ever.

I don't want to see this history repeat itself here. I don't want anybody feeling like it's their duty to keep this site alive, even after they've lost interest. This is my only objection to the idea of taking on the costs of hosting the site ourselves. If Ami's company is paying for us to use this site and they don't seem to care that they are paying for it, I say take advantage of their generosity as long as we can.

ETA:

Pweb to Noodle: [We] will be right here waiting for you.

awwww...

[Dr. Mobius]

I don't want anybody feeling like it's their duty to keep this site alive

You should've been around a year ago when Alea was using strong-arm tactics to get everyone to post more. I don't think it's even possibe for her to lose interest.

Are far as finances are concerned, unless Will grossly underestimated how much it would cost to keep this place going, it's something I could put on autopay and forget about it. Especially if we've got three or four people contributing to it and it comes out to $4 or $5 per person per month. I do agree, though, that if Ami wants to continue paying for it, it would be easier and perhaps better to let her do so. But I also think it would be smart to have a plan ready in case that situation changes.

[Gravity Defier]

I don't want anybody feeling like it's their duty to keep this site alive

You should've been around a year ago when Alea was using strong-arm tactics to get everyone to post more. I don't think it's even possibe for her to lose interest.

Shhh. He didn't need to know the levels to which I am pathetically devoted to this place. Though I haven't named any pets Pweb or anything, so I might still be safe.

Also, I have it on good authority people wanted the reminders to post. Mmhmm. Wasn't annoying at all.

[Noodle]

Well, I'm here now, so everybody should want to post without reminders.

[Gravity Defier]

#
Alea

*

Hi Ami,

I'm popping in to see if any progress has been made. We're so excited for the upgrades.

Thanks,
Alea

#
Ami
15 minutes ago
Ami

*

Hi Alea,

Here is the deal. They've put the new BB, and the old BB is still there, but I guess they didn't port the old to the new. I have the FTP username and password, but I don't want to send it over facebook. So what is your email?

Thanks,

Ami

Guys, I'm not a nerd, so I don't know what this means as far as access or control but I have an email sitting in my inbox, that I will forward to Jan ASAP, with funny looking information that I assume is the FTP username and password.

So, um, "OH MY GOD!"? Or not?


ETA: part of the email:

I hope this helps. I'm digging around also for all the old website stuff.

I'm so excited to see you guys treat it much better. My life is in a different place now, though I still really love the books.

Thank you!

Ami

[Wind Swept]

w00t.

[starlooker]

**stunned**

[Noodle]

uhmmm holy Sh**!! that's awesome!

[Gravity Defier]

The zip file is almost 14 mb. A few nostalgic things on there and some cool ones including the old encyclopedia, there is probably a letter from OSC when we first began it, and the international book covers.

I have that, haven't peeked at it yet but if that's all there, it's very cool.



I seem to be hearing from some nerds that the info I got wasn't what we wanted but that it's "a start." Please no one ask me about what that means or why it isn't enough or what else I need to get because I don't know. A nerd will take a look, talk to Jan, and we'll go from there.

[Noodle]

I'd be happy to look at what you got. Even if you want to blank out the password so I don't know it, I should be able to tell what it is you have by seeing the email.

[zeroguy]

I seem to be hearing from some nerds that the info I got wasn't what we wanted but that it's "a start." Please no one ask me about what that means or why it isn't enough or what else I need to get because I don't know. A nerd will take a look, talk to Jan, and we'll go from there.

Without ownership of the domain, ami still ultimately decides what happens. And in the face of any legal disputes, security issues, or if the question of "where is philoticweb.net" comes into question for any reason, it is on her to do anything about it. If it were up to me, that would make me a bit uncomfortable and I'd rather have someone paying more attention be the owner... until the domain is transferred and we're running under a different host, it's still her space, and we're just renting (albeit for free).

Currently the domain is registered through GoDaddy. According to their site, to transfer a domain to someone else with a GoDaddy account, you do this: http://help.godaddy.com/article/822 . Or to transfer the name to another registrar, you'd go through the standard domain transfer process (instructions for the GoDaddy side are here: http://help.godaddy.com/article/3560 ; pretty sure we'll need an authorization/EPP code).

So, if someone has or wants to create an account at godaddy, tell ami to follow the former instructions and put in the relevant info. Otherwise, follow the latter instructions; the first thing ami would need to do is to unlock the domain and provide the transfer authorization code.

I'd be happy to do that myself, but it sounds like you or Jan would want to own the domain. Of course, this could be transferred to whomever you want afterwards (but not quickly; you have to wait 60 days).

[Dr. Mobius]

I believe Will registered the .org domain through GoDaddy so this sounds like a job for him.

[Gravity Defier]

Just for the record, for anything concerning ownership/control or that otherwise requires some sort of official authority figure, I'm assuming Jan is the go-to person. I've been the messenger for all this stuff and I also happen to have strong opinions, that is all. I make no decisions and anything I get asked/told either makes it here on the board, to Jan, or both.


If Will owns whatever, I'm still assuming he is going to hand all information over to Jan (I think she has it) and whoever maintains the site (at this point, that is Wind Swept, taking over for Wil; not sure he/they do). I am not okay with only one person holding important information, ever. If Chris, Will, or Jan leave, I expect their "spot" to be filled and that person to be given all access information.


As far as what you all want to do about domain transfers, if you want me specifically to ask, all I ask is that one of you ghost writes the message for me and I'll email it to her. I'm not technically literate enough to do it, even with all of the explanations I've gotten from the helpful nerds of the board.


With that said, I think Jan will have a fair amount of reading to do tomorrow and it might be a bit overwhelming having to suddenly make decisions, so we should all be prepared for the possibility that things will still go slow for a bit.

[Gravity Defier]

(Jan, I like your toes. If I step on them, take a rolled up newspaper and swat me. [This whole parenthetical sounds awful.])


I'm going to bold/italicize points that I think everyone who has an opinion should read, if nothing else.


I don't like IM/PM only conversations, so for the sake of transparency, I'm just throwing it out there that I recommended to Jan we give the info Ami sent to three people: Chris (lead nerd), Noodle, and zero. I was led to believe copying the info should be priority number one, "just in case," and I trust all three of them. Assuming, of course, that they'll do this.


Nerds (the above three, Wil, Will, anyone else who knows and cares to chime in), is there a better starting point? For those of us who know nothing tech-related, all this information about what we should/can do is too much. Strip it way down, please, and state what we should be concerned with doing first.

If we can simultaneously ask for domain transfer, should we do that? Everyone should state an opinion there. Do we, for reasons zero outlined, want to ask for ownership of .net?

If yes, Will, is your .org through godaddy and if so, are you willing to accept transfer of ownership and relay important information to Chris? If it isn't, zero has offered help there further up in this thread and there's also the option of Jan taking care of this (and a nerd would help her set that up if need be, right?). Lastly, how can we politely ask this without being vague about our desires on the matter?


An ideal thing would be to get some sort of outline, if possible, of actions we should take from those who know best. I think that would help Jan a lot.

For example:

3 Wise Nerds copy database (or whatever it is we just got access to)
Ask for transfer of domain
Set date/schedule for forum software update/switch
[Whatever else]

[Bean_wannabe]

Is there any disadvantage to getting ownership of the domain? Surely if it makes things easier without any repercussions, we should go for it?

[Wind Swept]

I don't like IM/PM only conversations, so for the sake of transparency, I'm just throwing it out there that I recommended to Jan we give the info Ami sent to three people: Chris (lead nerd), Noodle, and zero. I was led to believe copying the info should be priority number one, "just in case," and I trust all three of them. Assuming, of course, that they'll do this.

Nerds (the above three, Wil, Will, anyone else who knows and cares to chime in), is there a better starting point? For those of us who know nothing tech-related, all this information about what we should/can do is too much. Strip it way down, please, and state what we should be concerned with doing first.

Yes, let's start here. Until we—the nerds—see what we have, there's no point arguing about whether we stay or find a new host.

If we can simultaneously ask for domain transfer, should we do that? Everyone should state an opinion there. Do we, for reasons zero outlined, want to ask for ownership of .net?

Yes, we want someone else—Jan—to own the domain. However, I don't know that we need to immediately move to a new host once we have that information, but it's good to have the option.

If yes, Will, is your .org through godaddy and if so, are you willing to accept transfer of ownership and relay important information to Chris? If it isn't, zero has offered help there further up in this thread and there's also the option of Jan taking care of this (and a nerd would help her set that up if need be, right?). Lastly, how can we politely ask this without being vague about our desires on the matter?

All that's required of whoever owns the domain is that they point it to the correct server. I'm quite confident Jan can handle this. We can even give a few people access to the account, so in the event Jan spontaneously combusts, someone else can still get in to change it if need be.

An ideal thing would be to get some sort of outline, if possible, of actions we should take from those who know best. I think that would help Jan a lot.

For example:

3 Wise Nerds copy database (or whatever it is we just got access to)
Ask for transfer of domain
Set date/schedule for forum software update/switch
[Whatever else]

1a) Send the info from Ami to the "three wise nerds" so we can poke around to see how much control we have over the server.
1b) Get the domain transferred to whoever we're trusting with the domain.
2) Decide whether or not we want to stay on Ami's server.
3) Write a new list based on how step 2 pans out.

[Jayelle]

Preamble:
Okay. Okay. I am here. My toes are fine, I need them to be stepped on so that I pay attention.
I apologize that my overwhelmed mode is "Retreat! Retreat! Mayday!" I promise to fight that urge.

What we've said:
I am fine with owning the .org domain. I just know very, very little about the tech side of things. So, Chris, zero and Noodle, you're going to have to help me out here.

Do we have a server to point it to? I thought we'd use Wil's, but that has been up for debate in the past.

What I'm saying:
My plan initially was just to get the rights to update the forum software, make a backup and be able to make the minor changes so that
a) this place won't get lost
and
b) it can look a bit better then it does right now
We can make both those changes without changing domains, servers, etc. Right?


So. Who is going to do this backup? Chris? Zero? If so - please go ahead. There's no reason to wait, imo.

I think we should do as much as we can with just the info she's given us before worrying about switching to a new domain/server. This can be step one, then step two is the much bigger deal of moving and making a main site again. I feel like these two things have gotten tangled up and it's made it more complicated.

[Wil]

Do we have a server to point it to? I thought we'd use Wil's, but that has been up for debate in the past.

Mine is still available. Always has been, always will be. Jan has the info. Etc etc etc.

So. Who is going to do this backup? Chris? Zero? If so - please go ahead. There's no reason to wait, imo.

I poked around just out of curiosity for about a five minutes. Looks to me the MySQL server doesn't accept remote connections. My limited knowledge with this tells me someone will need to install phpMyAdmin on the domain and do a backup that way.

[Gravity Defier]

So. Who is going to do this backup? Chris? Zero? If so - please go ahead. There's no reason to wait, imo.

Both, hopefully. Redundancy tastes so good.



But your plan sounds good to me, fearless leader.

[Noodle]

I don't like IM/PM only conversations, so for the sake of transparency, I'm just throwing it out there

I agree that we should be as transparent as possible with the goings on of the new board, but I also don't want to slow down the progress too much.

I recommended to Jan we give the info Ami sent to three people: Chris (lead nerd), Noodle, and zero.

It's becoming apparent that there are a lot of differing opinions about how we should proceed, and everyone has a vested interest in seeing the site survive. There are several directions we can take the site in, and I would like to avoid the politics that come along with people disagreeing on what we should do and being upset over the ultimate decision.

I don't like extra bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, but I think a PWeb tech committee would serve our purpose best. We pick a group of say, 5 people (some technical and some non-technical), who will become ultimately responsible for the technical aspects of the board. I think it's important to have more than one person making these decisions, but if we propose every last detail to the whole board it will just slow down the process and open us up for lots of disagreements.

The committee can meet semi regularly in IM, or voice chat, or maybe we create a tech committee section of the board and grant them access to it. Their duty is to hash out a consensus among them for how to proceed, and to carry out the actual migration. The committee would report back to the board any decisions that have been made, and would ask for opinions on the biggest most important items. There are lots of decisions that need to be made, and the majority of them don't need to be presented before everyone. This seems like the most democratic way of handling this. Thoughts?

For those of us who know nothing tech-related, all this information about what we should/can do is too much. Strip it way down, please, and state what we should be concerned with doing first.

If we're interested in having complete and utter control of every aspect of the site, the information we have is not sufficient. There are five or six different passwords/pieces of information that we would need in order to do absolutely everything with the site.

FTP information This is the information we just got from Ami. It allows us to connect to the web server and manipulate files that are stored there. This is a *huge* first step, and one of the more important pieces of information.

PHPBB administration info I know we have active mods, but honestly I'm not sure if we have access to this piece of info. I'm no expert on PHPBB but my research shows that there's an "Administration Control Panel" that allows for doing everything related to the board. We should have someone with access to that. I assume that nobody here has access to it, or the screaming Jane logo would have been gone long ago. This information is needed to make a database backup.

Database Username and Password the site has a MySQL database backend, and there is a logon to get access to the settings of the database. We would need this information in the event of needing to do a database restoration, and if we make any major changes to the board's software. It is also a different way of making database backups.

GoDaddy Control Panel password The basic access information for the godaddy account. It's probably inextricably linked to the rest of Ami's business sites since they are hosting several sites on GoDaddy's servers. Unlikely that we'll get access to this info.

Domain Name registration This piece of information would be important if we want to change to another host. Even if we stay with Ami and GoDaddy's servers, having this info would be a good backup plan.

If we took over the domain name, and moved the site to a new server, we could set most of these passwords ourselves, and we wouldn't need to get the passwords that Ami set up.

We can get by with just the FTP info and the PHPBB admin info. With that info, we would be able to upgrade the forum software ourselves, and potentially setup a homepage that had more than just the forum. I consider these two pieces of information critical. The rest is semi optional.

If we can simultaneously ask for domain transfer, should we do that? Everyone should state an opinion there. Do we, for reasons zero outlined, want to ask for ownership of .net?

Any change here would be for more political reasons than technical. I'm OK with whatever is decided.

An ideal thing would be to get some sort of outline, if possible, of actions we should take from those who know best. I think that would help Jan a lot.

The first step is decide what we're doing. Are we staying with Ami hosting? Are we going to try to pull off of her servers? Would we be happy with an upgrade to the newest PHPBB and nothing else? Once we have the answers to these questions, the rest becomes clear.

Unfortunately, I think I misspoke earlier when I said that the FTP information is all we need to do a database backup. We also need the PHPBB info, so we can actually run a backup that would be in any sort of usable form. Or as Wil stated we need access to the MySQL database.

[starlooker]

Can we start with the upgrade and worry about the rest later? I do like Jan's "Simplify, Simplify, Simplify" approach, here.

~~~

I like the idea of a committee very much. I'd like to be helpful and contribute and all of that, but I just don't know enough about the Internet and it's magic to have any idea to begin to know how to contribute without feeling like I'm over my head and thinking that there are probably people who know more whose opinions should get more weight. And I'm scared that there are enough people like me that people not commenting would be taken for apathy.

I think it'd be better if we had a small group of people to hash out the details and come up with a plan, and then present it or present a poll if we need to make a decision or whatever. Or, even just give us progress updates from time to time. That would be transparent, but not bogged-downedly so.

[Noodle]

Can we start with the upgrade and worry about the rest later? I do like Jan's "Simplify, Simplify, Simplify" approach, here.

Not with the information we have currently. If we were to get the administration password for the PHPBB site then yes. We could.

[Wil]

I don't like extra bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, but I think a PWeb tech committee would serve our purpose best.

Agreed on this.

FTP information... PHPBB administration info... Database Username and Password

We have the FTP information. On the server are two config.php files for the two pieces of forum software which already contain the database username and password.

We already have administrator access to the forums.

The domain would have to be transferred to someone else.

[Noodle]

If we have the Board administrator password, then we should be able to run a backup using the built in PHPBB backup function. This should be the fist step before we proceed. Then using the FTP info we could get a copy of the backed up database in a few locations. Depending on database size, it might be easiest to put the file on dropbox or something similar, so it's contained in the cloud and backed up on a regular basis.

[Wil]

Its already been attempted. The phpbb2 backup function is, er, as far as I am aware, intrinsically broken. The database is bigger than the web server's automatic script time-out will allow. This means that while the web server is attempting to backup the database, it is cut off short and we don't get everything.

Again, the solution will probably be to install phpMyAdmin on the server (simple), and just perform a backup that way. It is trivial now that we have ftp access.

[Gravity Defier]

And they're off! Speaking nerd, again. All I got from that is "We may or may not have enough info."

I don't like extra bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, but I think a PWeb tech committee would serve our purpose best.

Agreed on this.

I'm thirding this, behind Kirsten and Wil.


I'd like to throw it out there that I trust every last nerd who has chimed in in here to date and would be okay with any of them being on the tech committee.

So, committee first? Honestly, you guys aren't being simple enough for me so far. I don't want to know tech details, that's for the nerds; I'm curious as to how that translates into actions we can/should be taking. Which probably goes back to establishing a committee.

(I honestly can't believe I just broke my own rule about using this computer to post from work. I guess I think this is important.)

[Wil]

And they're off! Speaking nerd, again. All I got from that is "We may or may not have enough info."

We have everything we need except control of philoticweb.net.

[Gravity Defier]

And they're off! Speaking nerd, again. All I got from that is "We may or may not have enough info."

We have everything we need except control of philoticweb.net.

Oh, you laugh but now I'm wondering if you mean the URL/domain or all the HTTPQRS LMNOP stuff you all were dropping up thread in order to access the Whatever to take care of the too big doo-hicky that times out. Unless that all means the same thing. Why, yes, I am hopeless.

[Wind Swept]

I'm installing phpMyAdmin as I type this.

I agree, a committee is probably a good idea. How do we decide who sits on such a committee? There's still plenty of room for annoying politics and hurt feelings in creating this committee.

[Wind Swept]

PHP 5.2+ is required

Derp.

[Gravity Defier]

How do we decide who sits on such a committee?

Well, first, volunteers would be a good route to go. If that group turns out to be "too big" (which is a good problem, in a way), it can be whittled down. How it's whittled down, honestly no idea.

[Wil]

PHP 5.2+ is required

Derp.

Old version. Probably something in the 2's.

[Wind Swept]

Old version. Probably something in the 2's.

Just the wrong handler. Easy .htaccess fix.