Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

[Jayelle]

Basically, this whole thing is trying to go down at possibly the worst time in my life.
I want it to happen. But life is life.

[steph]

I hearby pledge to post at least 5 times on pweb a day. The posts may be one word, or even just a smiley. The posts may be long replies to someone else. Whatever they are, I'm going to post them. 5 a day. Who's with me?

[mr_thebrain]

i'm so gonna keep count...

[steph]

[mr_thebrain]

1

[steph]

1

Hey, that was yesterday, and I posted more than once! I did my 5!

[mr_thebrain]

fine


1

[steph]

[powerfulcheese04]

I like that pweb is still here. I read every day. I don't post every day because I don't often feel like I have time to reason through responses to things. Also, I do most of my reading on my phone, which is tedious to type replies on.

Then there's a feeling of disconnect and not being one of the chosen friends. I mean, I know its my fault for being busy and not posting often enough to really be close with anyone here anymore, but it usually feels like when I do post its just lobbed into the dark and ignored.

I guess what I'm getting at is I love pweb, I want to do better at posting more, and its often discouraging for me to post.

[steph]

I've been through busy times where I'm not hardly around at all. I totally understand seasons in life. I would chose you over and over again for a friend (and if it makes you feel better, I feel like an outsider and not a "chosen friend"). I'm glad you're here.

[Petrie]

I like that pweb is still here. I read every day. I don't post every day because I don't often feel like I have time to reason through responses to things. Also, I do most of my reading on my phone, which is tedious to type replies on.

Then there's a feeling of disconnect and not being one of the chosen friends. I mean, I know its my fault for being busy and not posting often enough to really be close with anyone here anymore, but it usually feels like when I do post its just lobbed into the dark and ignored.

I guess what I'm getting at is I love pweb, I want to do better at posting more, and its often discouraging for me to post.

You've expressed this sentiment before and it always makes me really sad, because I just don't see you as not fitting in. You are classic Pweb to me and like old people who like to sit around and say "Back in my day...," I do that with Pweb and have lots of really fond memories of you (including not getting along with you, that make me laugh so much because, sadly, that's one of the ways I get close to people) that have carried over to now. It's really nice to have that, since you are so busy and good lord, woman, 2, 3 days for a summer vacation? You're flipping busy.

I even have very warm, fuzzy recollections of you sharing your engagement photos with me on IM, which made me feel special. I don't know, photos are the way to my heart and tend to be a way I feel closer and important to people. So, that meant a whole heaping lot.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't understand where the "chosen friend" stuff came from but I kind of don't get it. We're so small, anymore, and with the exception of one or two people who annoy me to no end, I consider everyone a good friend and I'm so freaking interested and like most of you so darn much, I throw fits all the time about how you all aren't talking to me.

I know I've personally had many conversations with Brat wherein I'm telling him I don't think [Mich/Kirsten/Satya/etc] like me at all and how bad that makes me feel. Only, I say "I think so-and-so hates me." But, well, I come to the conclusion most of the time that I'm wrong and just reading into things or reading them wrong. I think that happens a lot here, or at least more often than we realize.

All that to say, I don't doubt you feel like you're not in the in-group or what have you but I think you're wrong.

Same to you, Steph.

[Dr. Mobius]

not getting along with you, that make me laugh so much because, sadly, that's one of the ways I get close to people

>.>

I kinda deserved it at the time, though.

[Jayelle]

I know I've personally had many conversations with Brat

This is what might make people feel like not one of the in-crowd.

WHO THE &*#@ is Brat??

[ender1]

I know I've personally had many conversations with Brat

This is what might make people feel like not one of the in-crowd.

WHO THE &*#@ is Brat??

I'm guessing zeroguy.

[Petrie]

I know I've personally had many conversations with Brat

This is what might make people feel like not one of the in-crowd.

WHO THE &*#@ is Brat??

Well then...that was unexpected cap-yelling, at least over that.

On the one hand, I don't really care, for my sake, who all knows who it is exactly but more importantly, on the other hand, I don't want to go specifying who it is because yes, it is a Pwebber, and he probably wouldn't care but I don't know that for sure and I don't want to make him uncomfortable by bringing attention to him as him and not him as nickname. Why bring him into things at all, then? It's not to make people feel left out...I kind of tell you guys everything. I bring him up in the only way I'm comfortable doing so because he's a huge part of my life and it seems pretty natural to include that. The only other alternative was to entirely exclude something very important to me.

[Petrie]

not getting along with you, that make me laugh so much because, sadly, that's one of the ways I get close to people

>.>

I kinda deserved it at the time, though.

Missed this.

ha! I'm kind of an epic bitch at times, for mainly irrational reasons. The list of Pwebbers I've disliked in the past for either no reason or really stupid reasons is pretty long.

[Jayelle]

I know I've personally had many conversations with Brat

This is what might make people feel like not one of the in-crowd.

WHO THE &*#@ is Brat??

Well then...that was unexpected cap-yelling, at least over that.

On the one hand, I don't really care, for my sake, who all knows who it is exactly but more importantly, on the other hand, I don't want to go specifying who it is because yes, it is a Pwebber, and he probably wouldn't care but I don't know that for sure and I don't want to make him uncomfortable by bringing attention to him as him and not him as nickname. Why bring him into things at all, then? It's not to make people feel left out...I kind of tell you guys everything. I bring him up in the only way I'm comfortable doing so because he's a huge part of my life and it seems pretty natural to include that. The only other alternative was to entirely exclude something very important to me.

Sorry, all-caps made it sound madder then it was.

It's just been bugging me for awhile that a) I have no idea who you're talking about and b) it seems like I'm expected to.

[Jebus]

Don't worry ::peers:: ...Jayelle? D-man and Wizzlebop feel that way all the time too.

[Wind Swept]

Then there's a feeling of disconnect and not being one of the chosen friends. I mean, I know its my fault for being busy and not posting often enough to really be close with anyone here anymore, but it usually feels like when I do post its just lobbed into the dark and ignored.

I guess what I'm getting at is I love pweb, I want to do better at posting more, and its often discouraging for me to post.

There are a surprisingly large percentage of us that feel this way. I thought it was just me.

[Petrie]

Wizzlebop, love it. I was willing to call every Pwebber a Wizzlebop until I realized it was too much like the Lady Gaga/Little Monsters thing and whether or not Jeebsy or I was the Lady Gaga in this scenario (my vote is for Jeebsy), I didn't like that idea much. I think Jeebsy should be the Lord and Wizzlebop, though. That would be fun.


Anyway...

It's just been bugging me for awhile that a) I have no idea who you're talking about and b) it seems like I'm expected to.

It was never my intention for it to even be an issue in the first place; I don't think I can properly describe how surprised I was to wake up to that. I mean, it's not a big deal in and of itself but the fact that it might have been a deal to anyone at all, I still don't know what to say to that.

I first used the nickname back in October 2009, to the best of my recollection. The fellow in question made a comment about how weird it was to read about yourself that way -I was simply using masculine pronouns- and stupid me, well, I didn't even think to check with him that it was okay. I deleted that post before he could get the message to me that it wasn't a problem, that it was simply a weird thing to experience.

It seemed like it might be a good idea to go ahead and have something to call him that wouldn't identify him, so I could still vent when I needed, but so that he wouldn't have to be thrust into Pweb's awareness. I mean, the worst offense he ever committed was letting me talk to him, so if I was too...weak or needy to not mention him, I at least wanted to protect him in the process.

"Brat" isn't some inside joke or in-group secret (can we even come up with a list of people who are supposedly in this in-group?); it, or variations thereof, are what I call him in off-board conversations, as well, and he's a person, not some tidbit of information I'm holding hostage to make some people feel more or less important to me.

Using it all this time, it seemed no different to me than saying "my friend," or "someone I know," or "a Pwebber who shall not be named." I have used that last one recently about someone else but it's because they were being negative towards me and while I wanted it known their actions were completely uncool, their presence is still appreciated on the board. Back to the part before, though, I figured using any one of those phrases would draw more attention, not less, and would be tedious to type out every single time. He's not my SO but people here mention theirs all the time, people who are not members, and no one cares if they know who those people are. They know that they are of significance to the member speaking about them and they accept that, just like that.

If my use of the nickname here seemed too familiar, like I expected some people to recognize exactly who he is, maybe it's because I at least want people to know that I have, do, and will likely continue to bring him up in conversations because he is of significance to me. Basically, please get used to that. I don't see how his identity changes that relationship or the importance behind it.

Pweb being Pweb, and me being me since anyone knowing who it is can only be blamed on my loose lips, I assume the number of people who know is higher than even I would suspect but that's not because I have made it into anything.



This whole conversation strikes me as a bit odd but I truly am sorry if I've made anyone, for reasons besides this, feel left out. I promise, I'm pretty boring (and irrational, sometimes crazy, etc.) and what you see is what you get.

[powerfulcheese04]

Steph and Alea -

Thank you so much. Your posts mean a lot to me. I miss being active and I'm glad you still value me as a friend.

(And, Alea, I really loved sharing my engagement portraits with you on AIM! It.was.really special for me.)

[starlooker]

It's just been bugging me for awhile that a) I have no idea who you're talking about and b) it seems like I'm expected to.

This.

I get your reasoning, and I am not asking you to change anything that you do, please understand. I've never asked, not because I'm not interested but because I respect your right to privacy and we've never really talked outside of pweb.

And yet, there's just that irritating feeling of being out of the loop. Particularly feeling out of the loop in such a small community that I've been part of for nearly nine years.

Like how apparently all the conversations and decisions about abandoning the Pweb 4.0 project happened completely via phone and outside my awareness. That kind of sucks.

[Petrie]

Like how apparently all the conversations and decisions about abandoning the Pweb 4.0 project happened completely via phone and outside my awareness. That kind of sucks.

That's just it. There's been no phone conversations, no IM conversations, no PM conversations about it in three months.

The conversations that happened were between Jan and Wil; between Wil and me when I thought we were getting more help at some point. And then they all stopped. All of them.

No one said anything where anyone else could mediate or try to figure out where the issues were stemming from, even though I did my absolute best to throw things on the board, for all to see.

Whatever "decision" to abandon was my own frustration and was the situation exactly as it stands, from my point of view. Not a lot of talking to each other, Wil is more concerned about hitting a home run than anything to do with the board, etc. I didn't want to keep hearing people, the few times it has happened, talking about it like it was a for sure, definite thing when no one is cooperating with each other.



I have to go to work but gosh darn it, do I feel a little s***** at the moment.

[Dr. Mobius]

Will and I originally intended to launch 4.0 on .org back in December or January. But then Wil got involved, completely took over and ignored any comments or suggestions he didn't agree with. We were pushed aside and ignored and for whatever reason it was suggested that the switch wait until July or something. I knew it was a bad idea to wait because I knew people's ADD would kick in and lose interest, but no one seemed to care what I thought by that point.

[Confessions]

Like how apparently all the conversations and decisions about abandoning the Pweb 4.0 project happened completely via phone and outside my awareness. That kind of sucks.

Also sort of like how people were randomly made mods/admins outside the rest of our awareness.

[Dr. Mobius]

Not so random, really. Jan granted Will and I admin status back in November when we first started looking seriously into moving/restoring the site. I don't know who promoted Wil, but it was for the same reason.

Personally, I don't care if I'm an admin or not. There's a few things I've been meaning to do when I've got the time, but for the most part I don't need it for my part in this.

[Petrie]

Will and I originally intended to launch 4.0 on .org back in December or January. But then Wil got involved, completely took over and ignored any comments or suggestions he didn't agree with. We were pushed aside and ignored and for whatever reason it was suggested that the switch wait until July or something. I knew it was a bad idea to wait because I knew people's ADD would kick in and lose interest, but no one seemed to care what I thought by that point.

Ah...you and Will planned? So you're trying to say to hell with everyone else, you two were in charge and that is that? Or, sorry, you, Will and Jan?

You know, I'm so glad you all decided to share these decisions you were making with everyone. I may have been s***** at motivating people and it may not have been my place to try to push things along but at least I was trying to keep it all on board, where it could be seen, and was asking for opinions.

July, by the way, was my idea because I didn't want it to be rushed and s*****. I suggested it, don't remember dictating it, and no one said no to it.

Wil got involved because he was the only one willing to do something custom. Chris wanted to do wordpress or something that could be skinned but how personal that could be made, well, not as much as I was led to believe people wanted. True, he ignored some suggestions but he also listened to some. Be fair.

Not so random, really. Jan granted Will and I admin status back in November when we first started looking seriously into moving/restoring the site. I don't know who promoted Wil, but it was for the same reason.

Personally, I don't care if I'm an admin or not. There's a few things I've been meaning to do when I've got the time, but for the most part I don't need it for my part in this.

Second, I have never hidden my feelings that your, Josh, appointment made zero sense. None. Not a lick. Will paid for hosting, I think, Wil was working on the site but what were you doing that you all decided to appoint you as an admin, again, without it being necessary and without talking to everyone as a group? Maybe it was in protest to Wil being involved but I never, not ever, saw you actually do anything. I didn't see you submit anything, I didn't see you suggest anything. I saw Will work on the timeline. I saw Wil work on the site. I saw Bean Wannabe offer to help, Shannon and EL submitted quotes but you were nowhere near the board.

Please don't come in here acting like this is all Wil's fault or people getting ADHD. The ones who were going to help no matter what turned out to be a small select few and anyone who truly gave a s*** would not use "It's taking too long" as an excuse. That is complete bullshit. The only thing, not person, THING that can be blamed is what Jan said: Life is life.


As for further responding to Kirsten's post...

I responded this morning in the less than five minutes I had to spare before I had to go to work, so if it feels like I should let this settle, well, I wasn’t done earlier. I was not expecting to wake up to more of this but I do want to say thank you for bringing it to my attention that I was inadvertently irritating people. I’m not a mind reader; I can’t fix problems I’ve created without knowing they exist in the first place.

Before I take that any further, Chris, I’m sorry you likewise feel left out of Pweb in general. I have to admit, I’m slightly annoyed by your feeling left out because I have tried many times to ask you open ended, non-yes or no questions, or otherwise expressed interest in your life and you ignored all those attempts. Then you’d post stuff in the Pweb IV threads and I’d still be annoyed from earlier snubs, so I’d be short with you. I am sorry, though, and have been surprised by and enjoyed your contributions lately.

Getting past the fact that I felt a bit side-swiped by this, I was kind of hurt that apparently you two, and maybe others, had been feeling this way for a while and never thought to come to me until now. Am I that unapproachable or unfriendly or intimidating? I have tried really hard to be open and honest about things, sometimes to inappropriate levels and in ways that have hurt others, but I try because that is very important to me. I don’t want people to feel like they have to be in my phone or on Facebook or need to have met me to be considered a friend. I’m not going to lie, I don’t like everyone on the board all the time and expecting me to would be irrational but I do try to be civil at all times; succeeding at that all the time, also not possible but the effort is there.

I am flattered, in a sense, that people would feel like knowing who this guy is is something worth knowing but that is a really complicated (at least I think) relationship when all is said and done; if it weren’t, I probably wouldn’t feel like I needed to protect him from attention. But I know that, at the end of the day, it’s not even about knowing who it is but about the feeling left out, which leads me to…

The comments about in-groups, loops, all that. If I seem to be fixated on wanting to know who else is even in this so-called group, it’s because I have been accused of being “clique”ish in the past, thus making this a very sore topic for me. I’m not trying to be flippant or condescending but there really, truly, undoubtedly is no loop to be a part of in pretty much every case people are saying they feel left out and if there is, I haven’t been notified that I am in it. I don’t want to belittle the feelings, by the way, I understand that those are all too real but this in-group? Not as such, no.

I come here to talk to people. Any and everyone who will let me. I can't speak for anyone else on that.




I am really, really angry, embarrassed, hurt, confused, you name it over all this. I can't say I'm sorry enough to whoever feels like I've slighted them somehow and I may be handling this all wrong but holy crap. I don't even know anymore. Point fingers this way if you feel like you have to, I guess.


ETA: PS, in case anyone thinks there's grouping going on in Chat, it has been largely dead, to the best of my knowledge, for at least a year. Again, if there's stuff going on in there, please direct feelings of being left out to whoever is actually going in there because it's not me.

[Confessions]

Not so random, really.

I understand giving the coders/hosters/whatevers admin powers so that they can do their things. BUT:

Like I've already said, I gave up pretending to understand the more technical things years ago. I'm just here to make suggestions that others may not think of. It's up to those of you who actually know what you're doing to decide the best way to implement those suggestions.

And I still think a decision like that/this should have been a community one. Or made with our input.

[Eaquae Legit]

Okay, all of this is coming as a bit of a shock to me, too. But I can see feelings are being hurt and tempers are on the edge of flaring. As someone who is neither angry nor hurt, and genuinely wanting to keep us together, and as a mod, I'm asking everyone to step back for the day and let themself settle. If you are able, take the day to try to look from the other person's view, and even more if you are able, try to forgive them.

I'm not locking this thread because that seems a bit authoritarian and hopefully not necessary yet. But please. I don't want this to end with people leaving or a big fight starting. Let's see if we can head it off at the pass.

[Wil]

First, I was made an admin simply so that I could try my hand at backing up the pweb forums, which I eventually did manage to do (when nobody else could, for that matter). There was no other reason was I made an admin, and for no other reason have I used those powers (except to change my title because I wanted one!). I have no intention of keeping these powers, I don't even want them, and they can be removed from me whenever Jan or whoever else feels like removing them.

Second, thanks for sharing with the rest of us. If the original plan was to do something yourselves, Mobius and Will, then that should have been made public. I only 'took over' when nobody else seemed interested in doing anything. I worked for several weeks on a design, which I posted pictures of every single step of the way, asking for feedback. When I got feedback, I adjusted things that I felt made sense. A lot of the time the feedback I was getting was subjective and minuscule or non-existent at all. Once I settled on a design, and one that many liked, and started converting it to HTML, I got a couple of more opinions. One person even said that I should use <div>'s, so I went out of my way and distinctly learned how to design the website in that fashion. I did indeed make changes after this, one significant and time consuming (earth smaller, fit a netbook screen). Yes, I made a few executive decisions, so to speak, to 'ignore' suggestions. That was my right. When trying to design for a community of people, someone has to make the final decision, and since I was doing the work I did that.

Third, the July launch was recommended to me to give people time to adjust to the idea, prepare for a move of the forums, time for me to program the website, and to gather up content and add it to the website. The website I programmed was actually completely programmed. Alea made a suggestion, which I didn't get around to implementing, but the website was completely functional and ready for content. With what low interest there was, I doubt even if the date had been set a few weeks later nothing would have happened.

Fourth, Jan had every bit of the server information since the beginning. I sent /everything/ to her. FTP address, username, password, email address information, database username, password, and phpmyadmin access. If either one of you were talking to Jan, or Jan wanted to, she could have given it to you and you could have done anything you wanted. That information is still accurate and working, however since Will has removed the DNS information from philoticweb.org it just doesn't point to my sever anymore.

I never "took control". Jan had everything. I had a server that I am barely using and I offered it up out of the goodness of my heart. Nobody else was saying a word, not in public or to me, so I started taking action. I went out of my way and did the best I could to make everyone happy and do, what I thought, the pweb community wanted done. My mistake, I had no idea that I pushed aside others, ignored everyone, and did what I wanted.

I'm not mad, or upset. I want everyone to be happy. I just don't appreciate being painted in that light, when all I was trying to do was help the community.

Love,
Wil

[Syphon the Sun]

First, to Wil: I just wanted to say thank you, again, for the work you did, even if (and especially if) the project is now (apparently) dead.

Now, to everyone else: a big thanks to those who contributed quotes, pages, suggestions, whathaveyou. I'm sorry that I haven't really been contributing, and won't be able to contribute until at least August, but that's mostly because I've been so busy with finishing my J.D., getting the last few issues of the journal out, and studying for the bar exam. If this thing isn't dead, I'd be happy to contribute quotes and/or do whatever people think I'm qualified to do after I start my new job and move to a new city (read: sometime in early August).

Either way, I think (and have always thought) that this is a community endeavor, and that decisions made about our future should be made by us all. Whether that's which homepage design or forum software to use, making new moderators, whathaveyou. I saw a lot of that happening with the design on the new board (we did collectively pick one software over another and the homepage certainly progressed over time) and I'm grateful for that. But it's clear some decisions were made without consulting the community at all. And that's pretty unfair, I think.

So, what's the verdict, everybody: project dead or not? (Also, are we now looking for a new domain name, since the .org doesn't apparently work anymore?)

[Wil]

First, to Wil: I just wanted to say thank you

Mmmhmm. I appreciate the input and everything you had time to do as well.

(Also, are we now looking for a new domain name, since the .org doesn't apparently work anymore?)

The domain still "works", and is registered by Will until November 21st of this year, and my server is still up, but as I said above, Will changed the DNS servers away from my host on June 12th so it appears broken.

Created On:21-Nov-2010 09:16:51 UTC
Last Updated On:12-Jun-2011 19:04:39 UTC
Expiration Date:21-Nov-2011 09:16:51 UTC
Registrant Name:William Rea
Name Server:NS77.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server:NS78.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

[zeroguy]

I'm guessing zeroguy.

Gold star. Someone's been paying attention :)

[Eaquae Legit]

Thank you everyone. Really.

1. Are we still doing this? It seems the various parties are still willing, though Jan is taking a bit of a break. We can wait for her yet. If we are, then let's try to revive some interest on making it happen, with submissions and such. Believe me, if I can make time to google some Ender quotes, I'm pretty sure almost everyone here can. It doesn't need to be time-consuming.

2. Everyone is acting in good faith. No one's out to sabotage anything or make other people feel uncomfortable. Sometimes people DO feel uncomfortable, but try to attribute the best of motives to the other party that you can. If you feel left out, speak up!

3. All decisions should take place on-board, or at the very least be reported on-board. It's only natural that people will talk in whatever medium works best for them, but if we all make an effort to report the outcomes of such conversations, we can still feel like this is a community endeavour.

4. All decisions about modding, etc. will be deferred (at least) until the move. Those who picked up admin powers have them strictly to use in reference to the board move. If we make any modding decisions when we get to the new board, they will be articulated clearly and publicly.



I still want this to happen, and I want it to be a good thing for us. I want it to revive us, not kill us or tear us apart. I'm excited about it. Some people have already put in a huge amount of hard work, and I don't want it to go to waste.

[extra cheese] Who's with me? [/cheese]

[Bean_wannabe]

Is the wiki-style-thing still part of The Plan? If so, I'm very happy to churn out a few articles once my exams are over (i.e. next week).