Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

New forum software:

phpbb
8
42%
SMF
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Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Petrie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:50 pm

[Added by Wil]

So, we might be moving! Here's what you need to know.

The plan is to have a main website again, with all the information and content that pweb was originally known for, on top of an updated forum.

I still need to know what forum system you all prefer. As such, I have set up a couple of forums that all of you can (hopefully) log in to very simply:

PHPBB3 is the newest version of the forum we already have:
http://forums.philoticweb.org/

SimpleMachineForums is the other option:
http://www.philoticweb.org/smf/

You can login and look around, though don't try snoopin on anything, I (hopefully) deleted all the private content! My account (Wil) is an admin account, and everyone else has normal accounts. All accounts can be logged in to using the password: lol

This is NOT the final backup, this is only for seeing what everyone likes. We will decide on a final date and time to backup all posts for transfer.

Let me know what you guys want.

FAQs:

Q: Is there a timeline for the move so we can know when to quit posting things we want backed up?
A: I won't move everything over until everything looks and feels like everyone wants it to. Such that, when the website does everything that everyone here wishes it to do, and is happy, then we'll start using it.

Q: Will I be able to search for my old posts?
A: All old posts will be saved. The only thing lost, it appears, will be PM's.

Q: What does the new place look like?
A: That all depends on you! We'll make it look exactly like everyone wants it to look like! We can worry about aesthetics in the coming weeks.

http://www.philoticweb.org is the main website.
http://forums.philoticweb.org are the forums.

Q: How will re-registration work?
A: You'll enter your username, and an email will be sent to the email that is on file. You'll click a link in this email, and it will ask you to re-enter your password. This works exactly the same as if you forgot your password and you're resetting it.

Q: Will we be able to set original join dates for those who know?
A: Yep! I'll just do it manually, so if someone could supply a list of original join dates that would be great.


[Mod Edit: This post is originally from Confessions, but has generated discussion, so I've split it off. Sorry I have to start it with your confession, Alea!]

Some days, there's so much I hate about Pweb (outside the users and content of the posts) that I just don't want to be near here (like yesterday). The smileys are obnoxious, it looks amateur and blegh and I struggle with shoving the part of me that likes aesthetics far enough back into the closet it came out of. I won't get started on the book club and film space.

(Is it an intellectual property thing or something that prevents us from having zero or some other nerd back up all the info on some other BB and get a slightly different URL so we can bypass Amy?)
Last edited by Petrie on Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:23 pm

Some days, there's so much I hate about Pweb... that I just don't want to be near here (like yesterday).
Image
(Is it an intellectual property thing or something that prevents us from having zero or some other nerd back up all the info on some other BB and get a slightly different URL so we can bypass Amy?)
Probably not anything legally binding since there's the wayback machine and all (though I'm sure Mike would know better than I). Even if there was, she's been AWOL longer and more consistently than the duck so I doubt she'd even notice.

It shouldn't be too hard to recreate the site at philoticweb.org (apparently Ami owns -.com since it redirects to -.net and I don't like the sound of philoticweb.com anyway) but copying the post database might be a little harder (ask Zero/Mich/not me). If all else fails, as long as there's not another crash (knock on wood), we could copy and paste the most important things manually.
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Postby Petrie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:36 pm

Some days, there's so much I hate about Pweb... that I just don't want to be near here (like yesterday).
Image
Yes, Josh, that's exactly what I said and meant. :D


I just go to this other forum that is so much...cleaner looking and has all these nifty features; I can mostly keep the disappointment and frustration in check but every few months (unless someone else gets me riled up before then), I can't help it. Ah well, oh well, time to start playing on the board while I work on reading and crafting and various other assorted things.

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Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:17 pm

Many of you know that I tried and failed to take over pweb. I emailed Ami back and forth for about 6 months, starting in February of this year. She is really nice and kept telling me over and over that she would give me the passwords that would allow me to make the needed updates/changes around here.
Over and over, she promised, but never came through. It's actually her husband that knows the most about this stuff.

I just got worn out of asking with no results.

I am all for a takeover - but I don't know if we would lose all our current posts, and I don't know if I could handle another version of pweb.
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Postby Petrie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:26 pm

I don't know if I could handle another version of pweb.
Oh, I definitely couldn't if it involved losing everything.

Adam is supposed to do backups of the board as far as I know; I thought that might somehow make it feasible to grab a copy of everything important (the posts) and insert it elsewhere. I'm sure when zero gets access to us again, he can tell me how wrong I am.

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Postby Wil » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:37 pm

Doing some quick googling, their isn't any scripts or programs that will perform a backup without access to the database. It is, of course, possible to create a public-view only backup of the entire forum using a program (that someone would have to write), but we would lose things in any private forums, PM's, etc, and all members would have to re-activate their accounts. On the upside, in the process all join dates could be set back to their pweb 1.0 and beyond values.

Unless, of course, someone has access to the phpbb database backup features. In which case there is no problem.

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Postby Mich » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:47 pm

Doing some quick googling, their isn't any scripts or programs that will perform a backup without access to the database. It is, of course, possible to create a public-view only backup of the entire forum using a program (that someone would have to write), but we would lose things in any private forums, PM's, etc, and all members would have to re-activate their accounts. On the upside, in the process all join dates could be set back to their pweb 1.0 and beyond values.

Unless, of course, someone has access to the phpbb database backup features. In which case there is no problem.
Yeah, in my experience we'd need access to the database, which means we'd need either FTP access or the master account, neither of which we have.

And what Wil said.
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Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:52 pm

Splitting this off from confesssions...

It's true that we don't have access to the ftp or any of the code that makes this place run. The Mods have the power to mostly just deal with the board itself, not to change much "under the hood".
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:59 pm

What about scanning/copying the text with a third party program? Isn't that what googlebot does? Sure we'd lose the formatting, but it'd be better than nothing. Once we have a chunk of copypasta, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to reformat it into recognizable poster/date/post/etc. If nothing else, I'm sure Alea would use every spare waking hour of her time to reformat it manually. :P

As a last resort, I'm betting at least one of you could pull off an /i/ of Pweb.
(Good thing I preview that before I posted it in the other thread...)
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Postby Petrie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:08 pm

[Mod Edit: This post is originally from Confessions, but has generated discussion, so I've split it off. Sorry I have to start it with your confession, Alea!]
's alright. No one would believe I made this thread without that note, though; the title isn't very awkward. Like, "Where the Futile Things Are" or "Philotic Web and the Futile Discussions."
If nothing else, I'm sure Alea would use every spare waking hour of her time to reformat it manually. :P
I'd do anything in my power, which isn't much outside of donating time.

But there are conditions to my being okay with moving/changing things and it involves losing as close to nothing as possible. I'm going to assume no one wants to move unless we lose next to nothing from it, though nothing at all is preferable. If Wil's post about what can be done is the best we can do, well, I'm not sure enough people would be okay with that and there's also the small problem of needing someone to do the legwork on the programming(?) side.

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Postby Wil » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:09 pm

As I said, it wouldn't be too terribly much work to write a script that would essentially back up the entire public side of the pweb forums in such a way that they could easily be moved over to a new forum. It would basically just cycle through all the users and forum posts and save anything and everything that it could, formatting included. Anything private, such as private mod forums (if they exist) and private messages would be lost (though, if some people so desired, they could easily be copied over manually). All the users would have to re-activate their accounts with email addresses, passwords, and any private settings they may have had.

It wouldn't be easy, but it IS possible.

Also, I keep saying it, but if this ever does happen I'm willing to offer up the web-server space for it and allow anyone and everyone who wants access to have it. Free! :)

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:18 pm

Then what are you waiting for? Write the script thingie and give us a link to Pweb 4.0. I'm pretty sure they can make new mods (correct me if I'm wrong) so the bot can get everything, it's just the admin/webmaster stuff they don't have access to.

Or hell, I'm sure one or more of the mods would let you borrow their account if they can't make the bot one.

ETA: Alea and I have decided the official name shall be Pweb IV: A New Hope.
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Postby Jayelle » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:20 pm

Yup, we can make anyone admin. We can make EVERYONE admin.
Wait, no, that would be terrible.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:23 pm

Yup, we can make anyone admin. We can make EVERYONE EXCEPT FETUS admin.
Wait, no, that would be terrible.
/fixed

Now considerably less terrible.
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Postby Petrie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:26 pm

You keep your pointy hats to yourselves, you hear? I don't want any power. Something about great power coming with great responsibility or something.

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Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:26 pm

I still cannot belive that nickname stuck.

EDIT: Nor can I believe it. I can neither belive nor believe it.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:30 pm

I believe Nick started it in the chat, though it may very well have been an official Jan nickname. And I remember all sorts of weird things most others forget.
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Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:32 pm

It was me. I was deflating his ego one day when he was being an ultranoob
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:37 pm

Huh, maybe my memory isn't so good after all. His ultranoobness was confined to one day?
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Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:40 pm

No, no. The deflation occured one day.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:54 pm

I'd be fine with a move or something, as long as we don't lose anything. I have no ability to contribute anything, however, except my archive of smilies, which I recently rediscovered.

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(Plus several more.)
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:12 pm

I have several from 2.0 (plus a whole set from elsewhere I like).

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v316/dr_mobius/Emote/
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Postby Rei » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:46 pm

I would be perfectly happy to move to a shinier place that looks less... well, interim. I'd even be willing to lose some info and posts and such (although keeping them is most certainly preferable). Sadly, I do not know what I can contribute, but if anything does come up, I will be glad to do my part.
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Postby Wil » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:28 am

If you guys are serious about it, you'll need to decide on a domain name.

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Postby Rei » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:22 am

Possibly to you legal folks, is there any reason why we cannot keep "philoticweb"?
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Postby Mich » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:29 am

It's very funny that this was brought up so recently, because I've been learning how to use Drupal lately, and I've been thinking "Man, it would be pretty cool to run PWeb using this. I don't know how many people actually use Drupal for forums, but it would leave a lot of options open."

This is in no way an endorsement of Drupal, as I'm notoriously horrible at making suggestions like that, more just a "funny that we're all thinking the same thing" kind of deal.

And hey, if we have access to the databases in IV: A New Hope, that means no losing of post count and such!
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Postby Wil » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:51 am

I don't see the need for a CMS at all, though Drupal is indeed nice. If anything, a forum and possibly a Wiki is all that should ever be required for a website like pweb. I'd consider SMF simply because it's security record is better than phpbb and it is a lot easier to skin.

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Postby Luet » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:44 am

I've never minded this forum, other than the awful picture at the top. But I understand the frustration of the mods not to be able to have control over things that they need to do.

I would be fine with anything that allows us to keep all of the current threads and posts, hopefully in a searchable form, with formatting. As for the pm's, as long as we have notice, we should be able to save any important ones ourselves.
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Postby Petrie » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:06 am

If anything, a forum and possibly a Wiki is all that should ever be required for a website like pweb.
I have no idea what the rest of that post is saying but some of why I personally would like to see change is to open up the possibility for this to be an EG site again, not stay a forum, if we can find the nerds to keep it operating smoothly. It used to be amazing and while the forum was the heart and soul of the site, it wasn't the entirety of it. I see no purpose for a Wiki, though. I think we tried one and it failed.

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Postby Wind Swept » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:29 am

Assuming we're able to get a hold of a backup of the site, I'd think it would be easiest to just stick with phpbb, as importing into a new software could prove a huge headache. If we actually keep the software up to date, security shouldn't be that big of an issue. I seem to recall this place not being all that difficult to skin when I attempted to do so so long ago, so I don't think that's an issue, either.

If we did want to go with a CMS, I'd vote for WordPress over Drupal. Primarily because plugins and updates can be added and managed from within the WordPress backend. I'm pretty sure you need FTP access for Drupal.* WordPress plus BuddyPress would set up a bbpress forum, along with a lot of other nifty community features, and we could actually have a front page with user contributed content, rather than being Just a forum. And if we wanted to try the wiki thing again, there's an app for that.

*ETA The point being, if the server admin drops off the face of the planet again, others with admin privileges in WordPress can still change things and keep things up to date.
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Postby Wil » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:00 am

Wiki's can be set up to be pretty much identical in function with a CMS with the added feature of other people adding content if they so desire. They don't have to take on the look and/or feel of Wikipedia. They're simpler to work with, and don't cause unneeded complexity, IMO.

Second, it doesn't matter if we use phpbb because of the backup because I doubt we'll be getting access to a real database backup. Creating a backup will therefor have to be done somewhat unofficially, and thus it doesn't matter if the database schema for phpbb3 or smf are used to create the custom backup.

Third, SMF provides skinning which is disconnected from the coding of the forum. This means that the skins can remain the same through security updates of the forum software. On the other hand, security updates to PHPBB are only "officially" supported if you're using the default skin because the skinning is (stupidly) more tied to the programming of the forum.

Finally, having admin access or not could be avoided by just giving admin privileges and FTP access to a couple of people, instead of one, so that's a moot point.

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Postby Mich » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:12 am

If we did want to go with a CMS, I'd vote for WordPress over Drupal. Primarily because plugins and updates can be added and managed from within the WordPress backend. I'm pretty sure you need FTP access for Drupal.* WordPress plus BuddyPress would set up a bbpress forum, along with a lot of other nifty community features, and we could actually have a front page with user contributed content, rather than being Just a forum. And if we wanted to try the wiki thing again, there's an app for that.
Yeah, like I said, I didn't really want to recommend Drupal, it was mostly just me thinking aloud about not needing to go with PHPBB if we rebuild, and it might be nicer to go with something more flexible. I've never worked with Wordpress, but I know a lot of less technically-inclined, "indie" sites go with it.
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Postby Wind Swept » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:02 pm

I setup a BuddyPress install on my server for people to take a look at. Feel free to create an account and poke around a bit.

BuddyPress bills itself as a Social Network in a box, so in addition to having a forum, it has a lot of Facebook/Twitter style feature--status updates and @replies/tagging the most noticeable. And as it's built on WordPress, it also has a WordPress style blog on the home page. All of the features optional, either by default or through additional plugins. Also, there are a ton of plugins touting additional features that can be added.
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Postby Petrie » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:30 pm

Would that allow for public/private board options? Say, Milagre would be registered members only and EG stuff would be public? Not that I'd necessarily push for something like that but I have to say the idea appeals to me a bit. Downside being, as long as Pweb is blocked for me at work, I'd never be able to see Milagre unless I was at home. Just curious.

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Postby Wind Swept » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:43 pm

BuddyPress allows for Public, Private and Hidden forums.

Forums are attached to Groups. Public groups and their content are visible to everyone, Private groups are listed, but you need to be added to the group to view content, and Hidden groups are an unlisted, invite only affair.

ETA There are also a number of plugins that support making a Private Community, where forums, etc. are only available to logged in members. Not sure if any of them are granular enough to support some forums being viewable while logged out and others not...
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