Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:42 am

but I really just don't want to see a lot of conflict over something that I think isn't a huge problem, currently.

We -- and particularly the people who have worked so hard to make the new site happen, including techies, Jan, and Alea -- are, essentially, the founders of the new, improved site.
What you might not realize is there already has been a lot of conflict, though perhaps mostly behind the scenes about some of the handing out of mod powers in the past. So, I don't think the current way of doing things has been working as well as you think it has.

You mention Alea as one of the people who is essentially a founder of this new site. And yet under the system you are espousing, she would have no say as to who is or isn't a mod. If Mobius has mostly been deleting bots and doing other tech-like jobs, then why not make him a tech mod? I also don't believe that we need another mod at this time. How often is the mod hammer needed? But if we truly do need a fourth, why not pick from one of the other long-standing, mature, very active members? If you look at the top 10 most active posters, for example, the non-mods are myself, Alea, Rei, Zero, Starlooker, Young Val and Mich. Zero is already going to be a tech mod. Why not see if any of the others are interested in being the fourth mod. Who has the time and effort and desire to do it?

I don't think that being "in charge" equates to making a unilateral decision. I think that leads to a disgruntled community, even if some members don't voice those thoughts openly.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby steph » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:42 am

I'm fine with Josh as a mod. (if we're voting, I vote to support Jan in that decision.)
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby starlooker » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:45 am

Maybe it is more of a problem than I see it as.

My major point is that I don't think that everything needs to be up for discussion for the whole board, and while I'm pro-discussion and input, eventually someone needs to make a final decision. Hence, supportive of Jan and mod-powers as a whole.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wind Swept » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:47 am

RE Forum styles: I don't have admin powers I can't set it up myself, but if we set the "Override Style" set to "no" we can allow users to pick the style they want for themselves. We can set one specific style up as the "default" style that users who haven't customized it can use, but there's no reason we can't allow for some individuality for registered users. (I'm saying we upload maybe 5-10 styles and allow users to pick between them)
I already uploaded a couple others I'm fond of with this in mind. There are quite a few that can be paged through here, if anyone would like to make suggestions.

ETA: Links are much less noticeable with this theme...
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:53 am

I guess when the decision for Mobius to be a mod was made it came a surprise to a lot of people. And then when he did joke about abusing the power and/or did abuse the power it made some people question the wisdom of that decision. So, if considering a fourth mod now, I would hope that decision would not be automatically for him. I think there are other people that should at least be considered. Whether a few names are put forth and then a secret vote by pm is held or something, I don't know. I just would hope that something is done to keep goodwill. Since right now, this IS a very small and tight knit community. (I have nothing personally against Josh, please know that. I hope you don't feel bad, Josh, though I'm sure you do. I'm sorry!).
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wil » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:59 am

If people go here, and under "My Board Style", they can select a style and click save.

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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wind Swept » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:05 am

If people go here, and under "My Board Style", they can select a style and click save.
Lucid Lime, FTW.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby GS » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:35 am

Definitely Lucid Lime! The banner leaves a little to be desired. It needs more screaming Voldemort.

Also, I vote for Jebus as the new mod. (Even if we're not voting, I still cast my ballot for Jebus.)
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Jayelle » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:45 am

Ew. This is a good reason to have options. Lucid Lime makes me want to claw my eyes out. Black and Green? Ick.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby starlooker » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:49 am

Ew. This is a good reason to have options. Lucid Lime makes me want to claw my eyes out. Black and Green? Ick.
Oh, I am so with you. Plus the white text on black? ANNOYING. Cannot stand to read more than five words in that.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby GS » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:49 am

Just an observation on something Jan said in another thread. The theme choices are going to make invsi-text a little tricky.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wind Swept » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:53 am

Plus the white text on black? ANNOYING. Cannot stand to read more than five words in that.
It's not so bad in the age of LCD monitors, but black on white always, always gave me a headache reading on a CRT. White on black is the way to be.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wil » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:55 am

Just an observation on something Jan said in another thread. The theme choices are going to make invsi-text a little tricky.
We can probably install a custom spoilers mod for this very purpose.

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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Syphon the Sun » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:57 am

If people go here, and under "My Board Style", they can select a style and click save.
*clicks subsilver* Hey, it's just like the old one...
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wil » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:03 pm

Yeah, that's the one I'm using at the moment.

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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby GS » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:20 pm

We can probably install a custom spoilers mod for this very purpose.
I was figuring (hoping?) as much. I am sure that can wait, but just wanted to bring it up.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Gravity Defier » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:19 pm

Nomi and Syphon have raised points that I would have, if I weren't at work and more or less unable to further join the discussion.

I also want to add, just for the record, that I am extremely pissed off at the dismissiveness I've seen. I don't think it's so cut and dry...

But, since the majority of you have spoken against the opinions of the people I fully support on this matter, I will back down and say the majority wins.


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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Ela » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:22 pm

Luet, you make some good points, but if Jan feels the need for additional mods, I would support her in that, personally.

I don't think those of us who are not mods can necessarily make a blanket statement that no new mods are needed if we are not the ones doing the moderator work.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:25 pm

I don't think we can say majority wins at this point, as we have not heard from anywhere near all the active pwebbers yet.

And Ela, I did say that I understand if Jan does feel the need for another mod, that's fine. I personally feel that there needs to be a more transparent way of picking a new one. Because the way the last appointment was handled led to some bad feelings.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby starlooker » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:28 pm

I'm sorry if it's coming across as being dismissive. Part of what happens with behind-the-scenes conflict is that those of us not behind-the-scenes do not see the problem. It's not dismissiveness so much as not understanding what the problem is to dismiss. If that's what you're talking about, I don't even know.

Additionally, ALL of the techies have had ENORMOUS access to private information lately, and I haven't seen any abuse of such. The jokes Dr. M made struck me as jokes, and unless there has been actual abuse of power, I don't really see that as a huge problem.

I don't think there's been any formal decision making, and I think it's premature to make any decisions based on "majority rules" right now as there are plenty of people who haven't said a word one way or the other.

People asked for opinions, and I threw out my thoughts on it as well as an idea for an alternative process if the majority of people disagree with my thoughts (which people are ALSO free to disagree with and reject), and I am confused about where "dismissiveness" comes into play here.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:32 pm

I wasn't offended by your opinion. You have a right to your opinion.

As far as I can tell, where we stand now is:

For the status quo (Jan alone making the decision for the new mod):
Starlooker
Wind Swept
Steph

For changing to a democratic process of picking a new mod:
Gravity Defier
Syphon
Luet

Neither side:
Noodle
LilBee

So, maybe we can let the consensus decide how to proceed here?
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wind Swept » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:35 pm

Can't decide as a group on a theme? Turn on individualized theme chooser.
Can't decide as a group on a mod? Turn on individualized mod chooser.

I choose as my personalized moderator... Me.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:42 pm

You already stated your opinion on the topic, Chris. There is no need to be sarcastic about it. I feel very strongly about my own opinion but I'm not being snotty about it.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby LilBee91 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:45 pm

This isn't apathy about the board or anything, but I don't have a strong preference about how we pick mods. I think Jan and the other mods are probably the best to judge if we need more mods, as they know how much modding needs to be done and how much time they have to do it. I would trust Jan's decision for a new mod. However, I wouldn't mind if we wanted to make it a more democratic method, though I don't think I'd have strong feelings either way for any potential candidates. I guess I'm just a trusting person and don't think anyone who has been a part of this board long enough to be a mod would abuse that power. I haven't had any problems with any of them so far.

Random question: Are we stripping old, inactive mods of their mod powers? They're not very active, so it doesn't matter to me what powers they have or not; I'm just curious.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby starlooker » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:51 pm

I thought Chris's joke was more meant to reduce tension. I laughed, anyhow.
~~~

Really, we haven't really heard much of a weigh-in from the people I think matter most in this conversation about mod-appointment process and board function, namely Jan and the other mods (particularly Jan, as it does seem things are falling most on you now due to, well, life). None of us have experience modding the board, and I would like to hear about the practical aspects of this whole thing from your perspective. (I.e., What sort of process will help you to run the board without pulling out your hair?)
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wind Swept » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:57 pm

I thought Chris's joke was more meant to reduce tension. I laughed, anyhow.
As did I. My apologies if it upset you, Luet. I did not mean to belittle your position.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:04 pm

Well, I kind of thought Jan did make her position clear. She considered herself in charge and that she would be making any mod appointments that were needed. I didn't count her in the voting because if we are voting in a new mod, I don't think the mods would be voting. My idea was that they would pick a few options for the rest of us and then the non-mod members would vote. So, since the rest of us have never been involved in the past, I figured it would be us deciding how to proceed. I guess it seemed obvious to me that all of the mods would vote to keep it status quo because if they wanted it otherwise, they already would have done it. Just because it's easier for it to be that way doesn't mean it's better for the mental and emotional health of the board. But hey, if the majority does decide they want to keep it the way it is, then we will. Or, I guess if the mods get together and veto the idea that we even have the option of a different way, then we'll have to do that as well. But there will be some hurt feelings.

Thanks, Chris. Sorry that I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Just a little touchy over this right now.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Noodle » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:14 pm

OK, maybe I should post to make my opinion a little clearer here, because upon going back and reading what I wrote I don't think it conveys what I wanted it to. I do have an opinion on the process as a whole, but I'm not well enough informed of the history to be able to say one way or another on Josh as mod.

Taking a step back from the discussion of Josh in particular, this is going to be more of a "Meta" post. Describing my vision for the site's leadership structure. I'll try to refrain from suggesting users that should fit in these roles unless they are already granted this type of power. I see the site broken down into three groups. Admins, Mods and Techs. This mostly pertains to the forum, but this structure could easily be extended to any future homepage, or other features that we add here.

The Admins would be the ones who have full control over the board, and they are the "leaders" of the board. This would be Jan and possibly one or two others depending on workload. They are responsible for steering the conversation about the direction of the board and the site as a whole. When they voice their opinion, it doesn't necissarily mean that we will do it their way, but they are in charge of keeping the conversation going. If we add a homepage back onto the site, the responsibilities here will grow exponentially.

Mods are, in addition to being the law, for lack of a better term "The Council of Elders." They work closely with the Admins to help steer the direction of the site. They make decisions when it makes sense, but they also provide a place for the members to speak out and voice their opinions. I think there should be 2-4 active members in this group at all times. (With the possibility of a few more being added to help update the homepage and other portions of the site as we move in that direction). Obviously we have Locke and EL in these roles, and they will stay there unless they decide to step down.

Techs - The group responsible for keeping things working around here. The Admins and Mods tell the techs what they would like done and the techs fulfill the requests when they are possible, and suggest alternatives when they are not. These users are granted Mod powers, but only for use when doing purely technical things. For this reason I suggest Techs create a separate account that is given the powers. This limits the temptation for a user to abuse the mod powers that they are given, since they would have to log out of their normal user account and log into another account. I would suggest that these separate accounts be descriptive, so for example, a tech account could be "TechNoodle" or "ModNoodle." With the new logging functionality of PHPBB3, we could then track actions back to the tech user that did them and remove their access if necessary. I would suggest that at least one of the techs be a member of the Mods group, so they can act as a liaison between the two groups.

As for how members are adopted into each group:

The techs are a more limited bunch, since there are only so many members that have the necessary knowledge to act as a member of this group. I believe we've narrowed it down to a few members, as discussed above, so I won't rehash that conversation.

Mods: clearly it seems like we need some sort of democratic way of adopting Mods. I see it being a nomination and vote process. If the leadership decides a new mod is needed a user is nominated for the position (Either by the existing Mod group, or by the members of the board) and we hold an election of sorts. Not necessarily a popularity contest, but a simple yes or no vote from the members. After a set period of time, if the majority decides that the proposed member is a Mod, they are promoted. If not, another user is nominated and the process repeats itself until a majority agrees on the new selection.

Admins: similar process as the mods. if it's deemed that we need a new Admin, a nomination is made, preferably from the existing Mod pool, and a vote is held.

I don't want to see a "too many cooks" situation happen where we have too many mods and not enough regular users, but I don't think we can really be a judge of the workload that is required there. If Jan says she'd like a new Mod, I don't think it's too much to ask.

All that being said, I'd also like to suggest that we remove Mod powers from inactive users. We can give them special titles, or whatever as thanks for their services, but leaving them as Mods is a little too much for me. In IT security we always say give the user only enough permissions so they can do their job. The mod list is getting a little outdated, and so with absolutely no hard feelings towards the mods who are no longer active, let's strip them of their rights for now. They can always be added back as mods in the future.

OK, that was a long hopefully reasoned and justified post. If we were to follow these suggested guidelines for adding a new mod, we'd say Dr. M is up for a vote now, and ask for PMs to JL or another mod to tally the votes.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:19 pm

I think everything you said makes sense.

As far as the yes/no votes to make someone a mod, what will be the criteria to have it pass? What percent? That's where it gets a little iffy for me.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Noodle » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:27 pm

that's a good question. Not sure if we would do a simple majority, or two-thirds majority. It's a little sticky there.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby starlooker » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:59 pm

Noodle, that division of tasks and processes makes some sense to me. As I said, I'd like for mods to weigh in on the conversation because Jan's post didn't strike me as a huge statement of position. It struck me as her trying to appoint someone, as Ami, the person who was formerly in charge used to do without question/complaint, and then explaining why she did it when there was objection.

And, Nom, I don't think it's fair to assume that Adam and Jan and Ali are all going to be closed to changing the status quo because they are mods. Nor do I think it's fair for them not to have votes in whatever process is chosen. They are also long-time invested board members who know us and know the community. They may, they may not agree with changes in process, but we cannot assume such. Part of what I dislike about this conversation, that I may be reading in, is that it's making me feel very defensive on behalf of Jan, Ali, and Adam, because they've morphed into "the mods" with assumptions about how they will behave or how it's not fair for them to use their powers in such and such way while forgetting that, um, we know these people and they've been doing this for a long time.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Gravity Defier » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:05 pm

I am confused about where "dismissiveness" comes into play here.
The dismissiveness to me was that Noodle already made suggestions for how it might work better. Pretty damn close to what he's proposing again. With the exception of zero, there were no objections then. At least, none on the board; offboard objections can't be dealth with. It was democratic, people who cared enough to voice opinions were doing so (and not even just the "committee" people at that), and things were going smoothly.
The minute we got the upgrade, all that was thrown right out the window and suddenly we're questioning things again. It came off as extremely dismissive to conveniently ignore a page or two of discussions and say "Thanks for talking, but now this is how things are going to be done."

My problem with the Josh-Will mod combo was that, while Will was pretty cool about sharing with me his work on the timeline (I'd then share with Wil), Josh never did. He'd disappear for weeks at a time and as far as I could tell, did nothing when he was here except brag about his powers via jokes and if they had big plans for the site rebuild, I never heard about them (and still have no idea what they were/are) and I was working hand in hand with the person you all were okay with letting do the design. I just happen to know he never heard anything either. Inability to communicate ideas and unwillingess to share ideas or listen to the ideas of others is not something I want in my leadership. There is no behind-the-scenes stuff that I have not already laid bare before you all. One team did not talk to the other team, and that wasn't the choice of both sides. If we go with the voting system and Josh gets it, fine, but I don't want it automatic, given the shortcomings I've seen. Cleaning bots, does not a good mod make.

And apparently it rubbed me the wrong way to have it implied I am elitist for wanting to do what I think was a long overdue clean-up by someone who is willing to ignore something that other people agreed to wanting done because it was a so-called waste of time. That it appears to have been done in the end is besides the point; how many other ideas that are easy to execute and that others agree to are going to be brushed off because I am not a mod? I don't think it should come down to me, or anyone else, needing to be one if there is a clear consensus emerging.

I told Noodle, in a PM, I didn't think Jan would be making any unilateral decisions, despite being in charge. That is why I made sure to forward any and all opinions I got on things immediately after getting the access codes and then went and pasted the same things I told her on the board. So it was never a surprise where or why things were being pushed by me in a certain direction. But if my contributions, or anyone elses, are going to be so easily dismissed, I will be done.

For what it's worth, just like I agreed with Noodle before on that set-up, I agree now. If people don't want me on it, whatever, but the system itself is good, I think.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Wil » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:12 pm

For the record, I agree with Noodle's vision for how the website should be run.

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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Noodle » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:32 pm

For the record, I didn't see anything posted here today as being dismissive of my opinions. I made some suggestions in this thread in the past, and I see them as fairly valid concerns, but no final decision was made. My past posts were intended to address just the technical side of things. We're making technical progress here, and I don't want to belittle the achievement. We're running new software here and it was done without any sort of formal process. The software upgrade was pretty straight forward and it was obviously the next step, so I feel like it could and should have been done asap without any sort of formal committee or whatever.

I've refined my original stance about a "committee" to match some suggestions that were made here in the thread, and make it a little broader. Instead of just being about the tech committee, I've outlined a potential vision for how we select the leadership of the board, and how that leadership should be organized. This is merely a suggestion for how we organize stuff and appoint new leaders. I'm laying it out there as a suggestion with the full expectation of it being critiqued and no expectation that this becomes the final way of doing things around here.
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Re: Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Postby Luet » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:45 pm

Kirsten, you're right, I was probably too harsh in the way I spoke about the mods. But I was speaking of the way they have occasionally used their mod powers, not about them as our fellow pwebbers. Just as they sometimes put on the mod hat and say that it is separate from their member persona.

I have been bothered by the same things as Alea in regards to the modship of Josh and how it was all handled. I'm hoping to prevent future problems like that by somehow changing the way things are done. I think Noodle's suggestion is a good one. I would be more comfortable with a 2/3 majority than a 50% but again, that's just my opinion.
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