Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

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Postby Noodle » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:29 am

How do we decide who sits on such a committee?
Well, first, volunteers would be a good route to go. If that group turns out to be "too big" (which is a good problem, in a way), it can be whittled down. How it's whittled down, honestly no idea.
I guess I nominate the committee to be Jan, Alea (for the non technical members) and Chris, Wil, Zero and myself (for the techies). Of course this means we have an even number and would need a tie breaker in the event that a vote among committee members ended in a tie. I'd be happy to step back and trust the judgement of the committee though too.

I think it's important to keep some non-technical people available on the committee to keep it in check.
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Postby Wind Swept » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:38 am

You should upgrade to MySQL 5.0.15 or later.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:46 am

You know I'd be happy to help however.

I do want to add, if anyone objects, Confessions is a good way to do so if you don't want your name attached to it. Otherwise, silence can be taken as tacit agreement, assuming those named are willing to volunteer. (Chris, obviously, and Jan have no choice at this point.)
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Postby Noodle » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:09 pm

If we wanted a tie breaker I'd suggest EL, but with new motherhood and all I suspect that she'll be quite busy in the coming months.
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Postby Mich » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:45 pm

You should upgrade to MySQL 5.0.15 or later.
Derp.
Man, this is bringing me back to a week ago. Installing phpMyAdmin purely through Putty. Good times. Had to reinstall MySQL about three times.
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Postby zeroguy » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:43 pm

I poked around just out of curiosity for about a five minutes. Looks to me the MySQL server doesn't accept remote connections.
The sql servers resolve to rfc1918 private address space. You can't access them outside of their network.

I'll try my luck at looking at a phpmyadmin thing in a moment. Protip: don't put standalone phpmyadmin installations open to everyone, as they have a bad habit of being compromised. I know the current one was intended to be very temporary, but such things often end up turning permanent very very easily. Putting it being some basic http auth is very easy and goes a long way.

Edit: I have a working phpmyadmin installation in what I believe is an obvious place :) A full database export still encounters some kind of error (I assume execution timeout, but changing the relevant php setting doesn't seem to help...), but exporting each individual table seems to work fine. Obviously that's not as convenient, but it works. I'll do that manually tomorrow just so we have a backup, but if anyone else wants to do it before me, if you can figure out what to do, go ahead.
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Just don't put me on anything to decide, like, the "direction" of the board or the community or whatever. I can provide technical help/advice/etc, but there are nontechnical decisions to be made, as well, which I don't really have any opinion on. In my experience, technical and nontechnical leadership are explicitly divided, so the tech people don't make any nontechnical decisions, and just do what the nontechnical "leadership" say to do.

I also do not see why any of this would not be public, but that's just me.
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Postby Noodle » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:16 am

Just don't put me on anything to decide, like, the "direction" of the board or the community or whatever. I can provide technical help/advice/etc, but there are nontechnical decisions to be made, as well, which I don't really have any opinion on. In my experience, technical and nontechnical leadership are explicitly divided, so the tech people don't make any nontechnical decisions, and just do what the nontechnical "leadership" say to do.
The "committee" as I propose it, would be just for technical things. A way to make the technical decisions democratic, but not delay the process by having to go to the board with every single little tweak or change. IE, if we do decide to change hosts, the committee would be responsible for figuring out where it would be best to host the site. it wouldn't be their responsibility to determine *if* we're changing hosts, but rather the best way to go about doing so.
I also do not see why any of this would not be public, but that's just me.
The point is not to keep the decisions secret or out of the public, but instead to keep up progress. If we have to have a day/week/month long discussion of every step along the way, nothing will ever happen. I would expect that if the committee met to make decisions, there would be a post in this thread to outline what those decisions were, and consider any objections.

Basically, it's a matter that we need SOMEONE to be the decision maker, since there are inevitably going to be differing opinions. Rather than place that power in the hands of one person, I think it would be best to have a group deciding. But, if that group is too large, then every last detail will be subject to debate which could hold up progress.
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Postby Wind Swept » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:26 am

I know the current one was intended to be very temporary, but such things often end up turning permanent very very easily.
I did have every intention of deleting it once it had served its purpose, but fair enough.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:12 am

But, if that group is too large, then every last detail will be subject to debate which could hold up progress.
This is why I agreed. Before, waiting for everyone to be happy was 1) impossible and 2) frustrating because the grand majority were like you, zero. "I don't have an opinion" or similar but most never said that upfront, so we were waiting for nothing. Then, it became a matter of one or two very vocal people butting heads with another one or two but neither group was working from the same set of info/goals/whatever.


I truly don't see how that would be any different than what Wil and I tried to do before; we talked offboard, then either pasted the convo in with pronouns changed to have it make sense, or paraphrased, and we always asked for opinions (which we hardly ever got).
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Postby zeroguy » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:33 pm

I also do not see why any of this would not be public, but that's just me.
The point is not to keep the decisions secret or out of the public, but instead to keep up progress. If we have to have a day/week/month long discussion of every step along the way, nothing will ever happen.
That's fine, it just sounded like what you were proposing was e.g. a section of the board only "the committee" would be allowed to see. Such a section could exist where only certain members can post in it, but in my opinion it should be readable by everyone (in whatever the communication medium may be).

I think a way forward is best seen by a single person rather than a committee (assuming the person actually makes decisions etc), but I'm not... like, against anything you've said. You can always set up succession if you're worried about too much stuff relying on a single person. I'd think what helps the most is reducing the number of people you need to give the "okay", and setting concrete deadlines for things. ("If this is not done in 3 weeks we do plan B, or reconvene, or blah blah blah")
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Postby Noodle » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:44 pm

That's fine, it just sounded like what you were proposing was e.g. a section of the board only "the committee" would be allowed to see. Such a section could exist where only certain members can post in it, but in my opinion it should be readable by everyone (in whatever the communication medium may be).
I never intended it to be secretive, but I know that there are lots of people who are interested in us regaining control of the board who aren't interested or don't know about the technical side of things. I don't want to muck up the transparency, but I also want things to move smoothly. I figured the committee would be a good way of making the tech side of things democratic while still freeing the techies to move forward with the actions required.
I think a way forward is best seen by a single person rather than a committee (assuming the person actually makes decisions etc), but I'm not... like, against anything you've said.
I don't know that I agree with this. It's not that I don't trust any of the people who would be deciding the direction, but I think the spirit of this place is such that it was created by a team of the mods, and I think we should keep that collaborative direction going. That's just me though.
You can always set up succession if you're worried about too much stuff relying on a single person.
I think I've made it clear that Yes, I am worried about getting us in this situation again. I don't expect Jan to leave anytime soon, and she'd be the most logical person to hand the keys over to, but if something did happen and she left us, I'd be upset if we fell into this same trap in a few years. Obviously Ami didn't expect to leave us, but things happened and she did. I trust Jan, but I'd want a succession plan in place, even if it didn't explicitly say who would take the helm in the event of a Jan departure.
I'd think what helps the most is reducing the number of people you need to give the "okay", and setting concrete deadlines for things. ("If this is not done in 3 weeks we do plan B, or reconvene, or blah blah blah")
Exactly. I'm pretty much proposing exactly what Alea and Wil did but making it a little more formalized. We hand responsibility for the technical side of the board to a few key members and trust their judgement on the tech things. Maybe we don't need the Alea and Jan membership of the tech committee, and all we need is the geek council to convene and get things done.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:41 pm

I'm actually not seeing as large a divide between tech and non-tech decisions. Or maybe I just have too strong of an opinion on everything, including things I'm ignorant of changing myself. Either way, zero's use of "direction" of the community did not make a lick of sense to me with regards to it supposedly being separate from the tech side.

Example: I have an Opinion, capital O, on how the forum should be structured after an upgrade and I have an equally strong Opinion on who should have mod/admin powers. That strikes me as both a technical thing (as in, you all know how to do that, I don't, even if it is on the simpler side) and a directional thing.



But, I honestly don't care who talks to who, how often/when, where, or how so long as everyone is privy to the topics of the discussions and as long as everyone who cares to voice an opinion is heard.
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Postby zeroguy » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:37 am

I think a way forward is best seen by a single person rather than a committee (assuming the person actually makes decisions etc), but I'm not... like, against anything you've said.
I don't know that I agree with this. It's not that I don't trust any of the people who would be deciding the direction, but I think the spirit of this place is such that it was created by a team of the mods, and I think we should keep that collaborative direction going. That's just me though.
Okay, that's fine; just raising ideas. Let's go with that, then.
Example: I have an Opinion, capital O, on how the forum should be structured after an upgrade and I have an equally strong Opinion on who should have mod/admin powers. That strikes me as both a technical thing (as in, you all know how to do that, I don't, even if it is on the simpler side) and a directional thing.
Nontechnical: "Who is a mod?"
Technical: "hey, go make this person a mod"

That's not the best example, since actually making someone a moderator is (I believe) just clicking a button in the phpbb interface, but that's the general idea. Other examples:

Nontechnical: Who hosts the board? (There are technical details here, but the end result is "who do we go to when stuff breaks" and "who pays for it")
Technical: Go set up the board on that host

Nontechnical: Do we want a wiki/integration with some other site / add feature X
Technical: Make it happen.

The people that handle the "technical" side of things are those that have passwords and accounts to various things, and thus have the means to actually do what is decided. Those on the nontechnical side of things are who ultimately have the final say on what we decide to do (and have passwords etc for emergency purposes, but don't generally use them).

The reasoning for the split is that the qualities you want in the people comprising the two groups are often completely different. Nontechnical leadership is more about determining what people actually want, arguing about it, etc etc. Technical leadership (in this sense) is just about doing what has been decided (even if you don't agree with it), and keeping things maintainable, not-broken, etc etc.

But I'm just describing this as the way I've normally worked in various organizations in one form or another; if this sounds silly or unworkable, then don't do it.
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Postby zeroguy » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:43 am

[Technical post]

I also got a full database dump. It's actually much easier to just run the mysqldump command via php, and it runs in like a second (compared to... however long the phpmyadmin export would have taken). I think it's complete, but haven't tried to verify or anything. If any of the other tech people would like to grab it so we have some redundant copies, it's in zeroguy/tmp/dbdump.sql.gz
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Postby Confessions » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:16 am

Hey all.

It's Satya. I seem to have a bit of a problem. I changed computers, and I neither remember my password nor have access to the email address associated with any of my (numerous) old accounts.

If there's a way to recover one of them (either the original Satyagraha or Satya) that would be great, otherwise I'll be creating a new account.
The password is "guilty"

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Postby Jayelle » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:18 am

Can you PM me (as confessions) your email address?
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Postby Wind Swept » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:22 am

[Technical post]

I also got a full database dump. It's actually much easier to just run the mysqldump command via php, and it runs in like a second (compared to... however long the phpmyadmin export would have taken). I think it's complete, but haven't tried to verify or anything. If any of the other tech people would like to grab it so we have some redundant copies, it's in zeroguy/tmp/dbdump.sql.gz
When you say "full database," do you mean you dumped all the phpbb_ tables? Or did you dump all the phpbb3_ tables, as well?
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Postby Wil » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:11 pm

I took a quick look at it and I'm having trouble believing that that file is the entire database. I was able to page-down through it in VIM in a matter of minutes.

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Postby zeroguy » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:12 pm

When you say "full database," do you mean you dumped all the phpbb_ tables? Or did you dump all the phpbb3_ tables, as well?
All tables; not that there's a whole lot in the phpbb3_ ones, iirc.
I took a quick look at it and I'm having trouble believing that that file is the entire database. I was able to page-down through it in VIM in a matter of minutes.
Well, most of those lines are very long, and vim will skip an entire line when going down one line or one page at a time. 82M uncompressed doesn't seem like a lot, but... it's all just plain text, no media or anything. I'm trying to avoid looking at it as much as possible since there's private stuff in there, but... it has the earliest posts and the latest posts when the dump was taken, at least.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:57 am

Thank you, zero, for doing that. And many thanks for trying to respect the privacy of all when trying to confirm it's the whole of it.


If one of the others wants to chime in on whether or not it's the whole thing, that'd be nice. If it is, what next? In simple terms, please.
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Postby Wil » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:17 pm

I looked at the file a little closer, though, as zero said, not too close since it contains a lot of private information. I didn't realize that the dump resulted in some insanely-long, unbroken lines. It does appear that everything is there. Good work. :-)

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Postby Gravity Defier » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:55 pm

[Directional Post]

I'm throwing my vision out there to be critiqued and to be taken into consideration while we wait to hear what can be done next. :P

My input on tech stuff:

PHPBB Upgrade: Yes

Domain Name transfer: Yes

Addition of homepage/site: Yes



FORUM STRUCTURE:
Community
- Foyer
- Milagre
- Battle Room

OSC Works
- EnderVerse Novels and Stories
- Other OSC Works
- Movie Discussion (Official and Speculation)

ARCHIVES
- Archives (movie, book, discussions, submissions housed within -not visable from front page of forum)


Jeebsy supplied that, with the addition of the archive idea by me. I think all the things within the parentheses should be viewable but locked. Well, honestly, I think they should be invisible archives but I don't know how well received that would be. Either way, I think activity should be encouraged elsewhere. I never understood how the mods decided one thing or another was or wasn't good enough to get it's own space like that and have its own mini-mod. Book and movie talk can take place in Milagre, new site talk can take place in here.




ADMIN:

Admin/Mods:

Jan
EL
Adam

Mini-Mods:
Rahl (EnderVerse Novels and Stories, if they have to be assigned a forum)
Steve (EnderVerse Novels and Stories, see above)

Tech Admin Access:

Noodle
Wil
W S
zero

I'm in favor of keeping Rahl and Steve in some sort of official, more than a peon position because they are originals but since they are mostly inactive, I don't think they need full admin powers. As for the tech people with admin access, I don't know how horrible an idea it is to have generic "Tech 1", "Tech 2", etc. usernames separate from regular account usernames, to only be used in situations where it is necessary to have access to the admin level stuff; I also wouldn't mind just making their regular accounts into admin. If anyone wants to walk, it would be easy enough to remove the access to their regular accounts, yes?

Everyone else, "Thanks for your services, whatever they may have been, but your job here is done." Upgraded software should take care of most spam and the rest can be taken care of by one of the tech people, I would think.

If we use Will's godaddy account, great, but I'm not sure that should equate to him needing admin access. In theory, he'd give that info to the tech people anyway and would be contactable somehow, should he be needed with regards to it. He did say to me off board he wanted to get upgraded forum software so he could stop deleting spam and then he wanted out; I'm taking him at his word there.

ACCOUNT DELETION:

After a year of carrying a post count of "0", an account gets deleted. If a user can flag all their alts *cough*syphon*cough* they can keep them, at post counts of "0," indefinitely. If they can't, they won't miss them when they're deleted and can always go back later and recreate any they later remember.

SITE ADDITION:

Chris said he'd work on that on the tech side. Not sure of his intentions (use Wil's or start from scratch) but I suspect it'll be exactly as easy to add to or update as the one Wil and I were working on. That, I would like to see help from everyone who is willing, and I know b_w wasn't thrilled that he wasn't given access to actually add info, so if it was worked in (without going to ugly or cookie cutter, non-personalized wiki style to make it happen) that many people could, that would be good. We have some of the old content from Ami, which is cool, but content can be worried about after forum software is taken care of.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:19 am

ACCOUNT DELETION:

After a year of carrying a post count of "0", an account gets deleted. If a user can flag all their alts *cough*syphon*cough* they can keep them, at post counts of "0," indefinitely. If they can't, they won't miss them when they're deleted and can always go back later and recreate any they later remember.
I really don't see the point of this. Spambots are one thing, but when you start deleting real accounts, even ones that were never used, it leads to the slippery slope of what constitutes "enough" to be considered an active member of the community. This place is unintentionally elitist enough without making it an official practice.
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Postby Wind Swept » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:17 am

Of course the super simple import process from phpBB2 to phpBB3 would stop halfway through and give me a 500 Internal Server Error.

Humbug.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:18 am

I really don't see the point of this. Spambots are one thing, but when you start deleting real accounts, even ones that were never used, it leads to the slippery slope of what constitutes "enough" to be considered an active member of the community. This place is unintentionally elitist enough without making it an official practice.
If the account has zero posts after a year, there's good money on it not being "real." I don't see the "slippery slope."
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Postby Ela » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:27 am

Not necessarily not real. I do think there are some people who register and end up never posting.

I registered at a different forum recently just so I can use my log-in to keep up to where I've read to in the threads and keep reading from there. Otherwise I would have to scroll and try to remember where I've read and which threads I have/haven't read.

I don't know if I will post or not; I'm undecided about that at this point, and I really don't have time to regularly keep up with another forum. On the other hand, that forum had several different checks to make sure I'm real (answer a question about the book the forum is about, captcha, and then the admin checks out the sign up before allowing it to go through).
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Postby Gravity Defier » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:54 am

I'd be okay with a one time, mass cleanup and then doing what Ela's other forum does; having in place multiple ways to prove realness. (I have serious doubts that the majority of people signing up and carrying 0 total post counts for that long are doing what Ela does and signing in to read.) But I don't think there shouldn't be any cleanup because it's rather misleading to new people to see 1000 members and think we're that active when in reality, we're much smaller.


Keep in mind, Josh, nothing I've said, not a lick of it, is set in stone, definitely the way of things. Not even close. I'm saying how I think it should be. If the majority disagrees, we won't do it. We're democratic that way.
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Postby VelvetElvis » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:32 pm

I'd be okay with a one time, mass cleanup and then doing what Ela's other forum does; having in place multiple ways to prove realness. (I have serious doubts that the majority of people signing up and carrying 0 total post counts for that long are doing what Ela does and signing in to read.) But I don't think there shouldn't be any cleanup because it's rather misleading to new people to see 1000 members and think we're that active when in reality, we're much smaller.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:50 am

There's only about 300 0 post accounts. Compared to the roughly 2,000 obvious bots we already deleted and the 700 accounts with at least one post (roughly 450 of which have less than 10 posts), and speaking as the guy responsible for at least half of those bot kills, I really don't see the point in wasting more time and effort on "cleaning up" unused accounts simply because they "might" be bots.
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Gravity Defier
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Title: Ewok in Tauntaun-land

Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:46 pm

You assume that it would have to be done manually, when I've been led to believe it doesn't. On this crappy version? Yes. On an upgraded? Probably not. If you have a different idea on what the board should look like, I think you should share it. If that's the only thing you had qualms with, then it would be easy enough to ask everyone who is willing to speak up what their take on it is. I'd personally like this place cleaned up and bot or not, if someone is registered for that long and not posting even one thing, I don't see much harm in deleting the account since they are clearly not active. If people disagree, for whatever reason, that's fine. We'll go with the majority. (ETA: Also, please see here, where I've raised the idea before.) Seems simple enough.

As I said, I'm not trying to run the show here, I'm trying to give some direction with the ideas I had, since people are being so standoffish in general. I was hoping some of the more vocal people would have ideas, too, even if they directly conflicted with mine.

In any event, the tech people have been awfully quiet on what's happening next. I know Chris had some issues with something. Is he needing and/or getting help with that?
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Postby Wind Swept » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:33 pm

In any event, the tech people have been awfully quiet on what's happening next. I know Chris had some issues with something. Is he needing and/or getting help with that?
I believe I resolved that particular issue. Doing a test import into phpBB3, now.
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Postby Wind Swept » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:57 pm

All right. The import seems to have worked. However, as I don't have Admin privileges, I can't open the board to actually check. It does let me log in, which is promising.

I thought about attempting to change my privileges directly through phpMyAdmin, but perhaps it would be simpler to just ask someone that has Admin privileges to login at http://www.philoticweb.net/phpBB3 and open it up. Please?
"Roland was staring at Tiffany, so nonplussed he was nearly minused."

*Philoticweb.net = Phoebe (Discord)

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:05 pm

Wind Swept is now an admin on /phpBB3
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Postby Wind Swept » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:11 pm

I'm not seeing any Admin privileges...

However, I did get it unlocked anyway. Should have read the directions the first time...

It seems to be working. Shall we just abruptly start redirecting people there? We can always come back here if it explodes.
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*Philoticweb.net = Phoebe (Discord)

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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:15 pm

Shall we just abruptly start redirecting people there?
Is there any way to formally do this? More than, "Oh, hey, it's up now. Please post there?"


In other words, how does it work that there are two up? Can we make it so that going to philoticweb.net redirects to the new one?
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