MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby Young Val » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:29 am

Almost everyone I know can't come down solidly on one side of this book or the other. Everyone is mulling it over, thinking about it; it has wormed its way inside them.

It's wormed its way inside me, too. But I can come down on a definitive side: I didn't like it. I didn't HATE it. But I did not like it.

I'll gather up my thoughts and try to post a more coherent review, but in the meantime, here's a place to work through your feelings about the final book in THE HUNGER GAMES trilogy!
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:50 am

I'm so glad that I'm not alone. That, in and of itself, makes me feel so much better. I felt like I was going crazy!

I'm not good at reviewing books but my incoherent impressions are: It felt like parts were rushed. Some of the descriptions of action sequences were confusing. I found myself rereading parts and still not entirely sure what was happening. I felt like there wasn't enough detail or time spent for Peeta's "hijacking" rehabilitation. Or the progress he made skipped ahead way to fast at the end. It didn't seem totally believable to me. I did agree with her ending up with Peeta, for the reasons stated in the book, but his recovery seemed too hard to swallow. And maybe it's just me being sentimental but...Prim? I mean, was that really necessary to give a good enough reason for her not to be able to end up with Gale? That was just rough.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:27 am

I suppose I should start by saying that I loved the first two books in the series. I'm beginning to wonder if my professional and educational background is just making it impossible for me to find series conclusions enjoyable? I don't abhor MOCKINGJAY the way I do DEATHLY HALLOWS, but the disappointment is fairly accute.

I agree that the Peeta's-been-hijacked plotline just vanished. This is particularly disappointing because I thought it was such a brilliant and unexpected turn of events. Very little time is spent on his slow and cautious improvement and virtually no mention is made of how his recovery was possible.

While Katniss and Peeta are the "right" couple in my mind, I hate the way the love triangle was resolved. In fact, I don't think there was any resolution to it whatsoever. Katniss never emotionally matures, she cannot even bring herself to say that she loves Peeta. She certainly doesn't actively choose him. They are together because he is THERE. If he were NOT there, I don't believe she'd go looking for him. Her passivity in her relationships kills me, and I'm furious that Collins didn't give her a viable character arc.

I think Prim's death was gruesome, but necessary. Saving Prim is the whole reason Katniss entered the Games in the first place. All that to save her sister. And tragically, in the end...she failed.

more thoughts soon.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
megxers
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:04 pm
Title: is a girl!
Location: California
Contact:

Postby megxers » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:00 pm

I couldn't finish it.


Though, my more controversial opinion is that I barely made it through Catching Fire. And I was hoping, so, so very much, that it would be redeemed in Mockingjay....
So don't go worrying about me
It's not like I think about you constantly
So maybe I do, but that shouldn't affect
Your life anymore

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:25 pm

Keep it coming, Kel. You are helping me tremendously. My therapist recently said that one of the reasons we girls like to talk to each other about our thoughts and feelings is because "you knowing me, helps me know myself better". And that is exactly what I have been needing.
Last edited by Luet on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Jayelle
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4027
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:32 pm
Title: Queen Ducky
First Joined: 25 Feb 2002
Location: The Far East (of Canada)

Postby Jayelle » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:11 pm

*enters thread with eyes closed*

Okay, ladies, you've all convinced me to read this trilogy. I have Hunger Games ready to pick up at the library and the next two on hold.
When I have read them and have thoughts I will post them here.
One Duck to rule them all.
--------------------------------
It needs to be about 20% cooler.

User avatar
steph
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 2454
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:36 pm
Title: Rocky Mountain Mama
First Joined: 0- 8-2000
Location: colorado, baby!
Contact:

Postby steph » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:58 pm

I agree that the Peeta's-been-hijacked plotline just vanished. This is particularly disappointing because I thought it was such a brilliant and unexpected turn of events. Very little time is spent on his slow and cautious improvement and virtually no mention is made of how his recovery was possible.
I, too, would have liked more story/info on this, but on the other hand, since it was Kat's story and they were hiding it from her "for her own good," it made sense that we, also, wouldn't know what was happening with it. I also think to add it at the end, when Kat would have been filled in on what happened by Peeta himself, and others, "oh, by the way, this is what happened..." would have seemed like backpedaling? That's not quite the right word I'm looking for. I just think there was no good way to write that part of the story without being cheesy.
While Katniss and Peeta are the "right" couple in my mind, I hate the way the love triangle was resolved. In fact, I don't think there was any resolution to it whatsoever. Katniss never emotionally matures, she cannot even bring herself to say that she loves Peeta. She certainly doesn't actively choose him. They are together because he is THERE. If he were NOT there, I don't believe she'd go looking for him. Her passivity in her relationships kills me, and I'm furious that Collins didn't give her a viable character arc.
I agree that she only "chose" Peeta because he was there. He was the right choice, in my opinion. I don't think, with everything she experienced, that Gale could ever understand the "new" Kat. The resolution with him WAS rushed, but I don't think Kat knew what else to do. I do think that she didn't fully understand why she couldn't be with Gale. She gave him that reason, which was a true reason (albeit, a pretty small piece that I think would be able to heal in time if she were willing to try), but I don't think she wanted to think about all the reasons why not. He was gone and then she didn't have to think or talk about it ever again. She didn't want to "try" in a relationship and she would have to with Gale.
I think Prim's death was gruesome, but necessary. Saving Prim is the whole reason Katniss entered the Games in the first place. All that to save her sister. And tragically, in the end...she failed.
As soon as it happened, it made sense to me. It was also good for me as it sparked the event of assassinating Coin, which wouldn't have happened otherwise. I wondered the whole time in 13, how things were REALLY different from the current power. When it was true that they were exactly the same, it was a just choice and the result was what the country needed (in my opinion).

The one thing that TRULY took me by surprise was Bogg's losing his legs and then his life. For some reason, that blindsided me, when nothing else really did.
"When I look back on my ordinary, ordinary life,
I see so much magic, though I missed it at the time." - Jamie Cullum

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:33 pm

I, too, would have liked more story/info on this, but on the other hand, since it was Kat's story and they were hiding it from her "for her own good," it made sense that we, also, wouldn't know what was happening with it. I also think to add it at the end, when Kat would have been filled in on what happened by Peeta himself, and others, "oh, by the way, this is what happened..." would have seemed like backpedaling? That's not quite the right word I'm looking for. I just think there was no good way to write that part of the story without being cheesy.
For me, I really needed to see the evolution of their relationship at that point. He goes from being in love with her and being a friend and support system, to trying to kill her with his bare hands, to sort of establishing a speaking relationship with her wherein he clearly still loathes the very sight of her, to nursing her back to life from her severe PTSD, to being in love with her again and marrying her and fathering her children.

WTH?! I'm sorry, I needed to see that. I need to see how Peeta conquers his hijacking specifically with regards to his interactions with Katniss. Did he just wake up one day and get over it? It's ridiculous! That needed to be explored in depth.

I also needed Katniss to be worthy of Peeta, because she never really has been, and she's certainly not by the end of MOCKINGJAY.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
Petra456
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 2427
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:48 pm
Title: Actually, I'm Fred (and a monster)
First Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Singing on Krikkit.
Contact:

Postby Petra456 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Even though it seems like everyone kinda hated the last book, reading this thread made me want to read the series. I'm just starting The Hunger Games.
Member since March 16th, 2004.

And there will come a time, you'll see, with no more tears.
And love will not break your heart, but dismiss your fears.
Get over your hill and see what you find there,
With grace in your heart and flowers in your hair.

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:46 pm

I definitely didn't hate Mockingjay. It says a lot about the book that it was able to cause me to get this worked up. I'm actually rereading it only a week after I first read it. I'm just trying to sort out parts I did and did not like about it.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
steph
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 2454
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:36 pm
Title: Rocky Mountain Mama
First Joined: 0- 8-2000
Location: colorado, baby!
Contact:

Postby steph » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:09 pm

I didn't hate it at all! I actually liked it a whole lot!

Kel, I TOTALLY understand. I would have loved to have seen it also. Those were just my thoughts reconciling why I didn't get to see it. I am usually very forgiving to authors.

[quote=Young Val]I also needed Katniss to be worthy of Peeta, because she never really has been, and she's certainly not by the end of MOCKINGJAY.[/quote]

For sure! Peeta is amazing and just because he's willing to give Katniss a wonderful relationship without her working at it (like she would have had to do with Gale) doesn't mean she SHOULDN'T work at it to deserve all he's giving her. (It's similar to why I'm "Team Edward" in Twilight. Jacob is awesome and deserves way better than stupid Bella.)
"When I look back on my ordinary, ordinary life,
I see so much magic, though I missed it at the time." - Jamie Cullum

User avatar
Gravity Defier
Commander
Commander
Posts: 7861
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:32 pm
Title: Ewok in Tauntaun-land

Postby Gravity Defier » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:14 am

I think Gale saying "You'll never forgive me for this, whether or not it's actually my fault" was as much a cop out on his part as Katniss's "choosing" Peeta because he was there. I also have to say, I'm not such a fan of the "she's not worthy of Peeta" comments.

He was always in love with her, no confusion, no questions asked, she was it. She, on the other hand, was put in the difficult position of having to choose between two guys for whom she had different reasons to feel strongly about. Add onto that the pressure of being this symbol to an entire revolution, sister dead, weight of guilt over death of many people, love life has to fall down a few pegs on the list of priorities. As far as I'm concerned, when she didn't chase after Gale, she was in a way choosing Peeta. He was, afterall, the only other person she had those feelings about, the only other person she could be with, and she did know that with time, the hurt over Gale having a hand in designing those bombs could heal. Given she was so gun-ho on rescuing Peeta while he was a captive, that she wouldn't choose Gale with Peeta out of theway, that she on some level recognized she had a good thing with him, I think she would have gone looking for him eventually if he hadn't turned up. However, him being who he is, he showed up before it got to that.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:27 am

I think it's a little bit different, because Gale isn't choosing between two people, and Katniss is (or, rather, isn't).

It's not enough for me that she does what is easy and available. And I love Katniss, and when I say she's not worthy of Peeta, I'm not saying that she's a terrible person or someone who doesn't deserve love. I'm saying that Peeta has always been straight with Katniss and she has never been straight with him. And you can argue that in the earlier books she CAN'T be straight with him because she doesn't know how she feels.

But she sure as hell ought to know how she feels by the end of the series (problem number one, I don't believe she does). She never once has a moment where she tells Peeta her feelings, never even tells the reader she loves him. I fully believe that if Gale ever popped back in to District 12 to say hello, the whole wishy-washy dithering mess would start all over again! Frankly Katniss owes it to Peeta, and Collins owes it to the reader to legitimately resolve the love triangle. I feel cheated, and it makes me dislike Katniss quite a bit, actually (though other events in the book contribute to that feeling as well).
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
steph
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 2454
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:36 pm
Title: Rocky Mountain Mama
First Joined: 0- 8-2000
Location: colorado, baby!
Contact:

Postby steph » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:26 am

I feel like just going through some VERY hard trials doesn't give you a "get out of work in a relationship" card. Peeta went through crazy amounts of trials, too. I don't care who you are, you have to contribute in a relationship. And maybe she does at some point...she does have kids and that means giving, giving, giving. But at the time, she was not giving, only him.

Don't get me wrong, I also love Katniss, she just needs to kick things into gear and do her part in the relationship.

Also, what Kelly said.
"When I look back on my ordinary, ordinary life,
I see so much magic, though I missed it at the time." - Jamie Cullum

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:46 am

Add onto that the pressure of being this symbol to an entire revolution, sister dead, weight of guilt over death of many people, love life has to fall down a few pegs on the list of priorities.

On the one hand, I agree that romance doesn't always win out over guilt and pressure and death.

On the other hand, I'd argue that this is fiction, not real life, and romance is definitely the most important thing on that list. Not for any of the superficial reasons. Not because readers are rooting for one boy or the other, not because it's lighter and easier to swallow than all the tragedy, but because it defines Katniss's emotional arc throughout the series.

Who she chooses to be with--if she chooses to be with anyone at all (at this point, I almost wish she stayed single)--speaks to the person she has grown to be. The spark at her core.

And yes, as steph said, she DOES need to work for that. She works very hard to provide for her family, and she works very hard to survive in the arena...but to be honest, she really couldn't care less about the rebellion, and she ignores all the people in her life on an emotional level. Not just Peeta, either. Gale. Her mother. Katniss refuses flat out to establish emotional connections with others, and THAT'S what she needs to learn to do by the end of the series.

It's not enough that other people love her and want to take care of her and support her. She needs not only to feel it, but to acknowledge it, and--sorry if this sounds harsh to some of you--but to PROVE it, after she's spent pretty much her whole life dicking around with everyone else's emotions.

I think the saddest thing about the end of the book and the epilogue is that Katniss has become her mother, whom she so desperately despised. Katniss is emotionally absent, essentially catatonic, and doesn't even refer to her children by their names in her own mind. Ask any mother if they think of their children as "boy" and "girl" in their thoughts.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
Gravity Defier
Commander
Commander
Posts: 7861
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:32 pm
Title: Ewok in Tauntaun-land

Postby Gravity Defier » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:40 pm

Perhaps I glossed over the ending but I'm not seeing how what was written shows she didn't end up working for her relationship. When I say cut the girl a break, I mean immediately after, for a given definition of "immediately."

She was in a bad place, needed time to collect what she could of herself in the ways she knew to do it. Show me a person who hasn't fallen apart over smaller tragedies at least once in their life and you're showing me a liar or a robot. So what if she was slinking around, barely living when he showed up and that passivity leaked over into his presence in her life? So what if she took time after that to keep gathering herself up? To me, what I read, didn't show someone who never worked for the relationship or someone who was incapable of saying "I love you" (to me, what they had was a unique little in-joke sort of thing, not him needing to beg her to admit she loved him; a la "Ditto" in Ghost). All I could see was a very short, very rushed "let's tidy this up" ending. I think the two characters struggled, by themselves, with each other, with their relationship and we didn't see most/all of that.

Unfortunately, I can't point to text to support this view of mine if it exists both because I'm pretty sure some of that was a gut reaction and also because I turned in my copy, knowing about the demand for the book.

Either way, I'm not too concerned for her deserving/earning/being worthy, etc. But that's just me. I'm fine with others feeling differently.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:11 pm

She works very hard to provide for her family, and she works very hard to survive in the arena...but to be honest, she really couldn't care less about the rebellion, and she ignores all the people in her life on an emotional level. Not just Peeta, either. Gale. Her mother. Katniss refuses flat out to establish emotional connections with others, and THAT'S what she needs to learn to do by the end of the series.
This. And I would add Prim to that list, other than rare occasions when she connects with her almost by accident. She doesn't seek her out to connects but lets Prim seek her out. She cares but from a distance or in her own way. She seems incredibly lacking in self-awareness. And that is frustrating.

A prime example of this is a scene with her and Gale before they attack the Nut in District 2. She has just decided that Peeta will never recover from the hijacking, so she decides to just stop thinking and start kissing Gale. After a bit, he stops and asks her what she is thinking and when she acts confused, he turns away because it would be like kissing a drunk person. That's what Katniss is like. She is emotionally unavailable.

This is part of the reason that Katniss (and in turn, Mockingjay) bothers me so much. It drives me nuts when people are able to exist without feeling true attachment to the ones they are say they care about. While she feels some type of attachment, she doesn't seek out the ones she supposedly loves most (Gale, Peeta, Prim, Mom) when she is in need. She most often seeks out people like Finnick and Haymitch for emotional support. I think it feels safer to do that.

I do know that I am seeing all this from a personal bias. Because she reminds me of some people in my life that I have loved (or still do love) that are emotionally unavailable and/or do little to nothing to reciprocate friendships/relationships. That type of person is so difficult for me to comprehend because it is completely anathema to my persona.

I think that makes it hard for me to fully relate to and sympathize with her character. Peeta was always much more sympathetic, likable, relatable to me. To have his core personality hijacked was upsetting and then to not see how it was recovered was frustrating. As Kelly said, I wanted the resolution by the end. I wanted her to learn how to be a better friend/person. I wanted to see how Peeta recovered. And maybe that did happen but we weren't shown it.


ETA:
All I could see was a very short, very rushed "let's tidy this up" ending. I think the two characters struggled, by themselves, with each other, with their relationship and we didn't see most/all of that.
I totally agree. I wanted to give Katniss the benefit of the doubt. And I can see things developing exactly as you said between the two of them. I do think this is a case of a rushed ending. I wish more time had been spent developing the issues mentioned so that people didn't come away feeling unsatisfied with the character resolutions, instead of having to fill in their own.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
steph
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 2454
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:36 pm
Title: Rocky Mountain Mama
First Joined: 0- 8-2000
Location: colorado, baby!
Contact:

Postby steph » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:37 pm

I totally agree. I wanted to give Katniss the benefit of the doubt. And I can see things developing exactly as you said between the two of them. I do think this is a case of a rushed ending. I wish more time had been spent developing the issues mentioned so that people didn't come away feeling unsatisfied with the character resolutions, instead of having to fill in their own.
Yes. I generally do give her the benefit of the doubt. A relationship could last as long as theirs does if at some point in time Katniss doesn't start giving. I, as the reader, just didn't get to see it, and that makes me sad.

Also, for the record, I also would have been happy with a Gale relationship at the end, since I really love Gale. I just know that it couldn't last as long as a relationship with Peeta.
"When I look back on my ordinary, ordinary life,
I see so much magic, though I missed it at the time." - Jamie Cullum

User avatar
Gravity Defier
Commander
Commander
Posts: 7861
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:32 pm
Title: Ewok in Tauntaun-land

Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:37 pm

This is part of the reason that Katniss (and in turn, Mockingjay) bothers me so much. It drives me nuts when people are able to exist without feeling true attachment to the ones they are say they care about. While she feels some type of attachment, she doesn't seek out the ones she supposedly loves most (Gale, Peeta, Prim, Mom) when she is in need. She most often seeks out people like Finnick and Haymitch for emotional support. I think it feels safer to do that.

I was thinking about this as I was editing books at work today, so I had to stop and scribble notes/reminders to myself so I wouldn't forget by the time I got home.

Her behavior, what looked like withdrawal, made sense to me when I looked at it from a more personal standpoint. When my father came home from the Gulf War, he refused, absolutely refused, to talk to us about anything too personal/deeply emotional. Part of that was him not being a particularly demonstrative person to begin with but part of it was him feeling out of place in our lives and feeling like we had no way of understanding anything he was going through. He could talk to other Marines/military just fine but he couldn't talk to us. I think some of Katniss's behavior was for similar reasons. Look at who she went to: Finnick and Haymitch. They experienced the same things she did -not just the plans to overthrow the leadership but the actual Games- whereas Gale, her mom, Prim did not. True, she didn't seek out Peeta after the fall of the Capital but I've already stated (or meant to, if I didn't) that I think she would have, given some time, if he hadn't shown up first.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:09 am

I wanted to write about a few things I actually liked about the book.

I. Love. Johanna. Mason. I think she's just fantastic and have ever since the mention of her in HUNGER GAMES. A small part of me wishes there were a spin-off sitcom about her and Katniss being roommates. :D

I love Finnick, Annie, and Finnick & Annie. Although I'm sort of sad that their child ALSO remains unnamed and that he (she?) is essentially Teddy Lupin 2.0 after Finnick dies.

I also really adore Haymitch, and I think he's got a wonderful name in a book filled with otherwise terribly named characters. ("Katniss" may be the worst name I've ever read. And the baker named his son Peeta? PEETA? Like pita bread? REALLY?)
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:21 am

Alea, I can see your point. I think we are both looking at Katniss through the lenses of our own personal experience. But it's good to hear the viewpoints of other people so that we can expand our own.

And I actually like the name Katniss. :)
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Jayelle
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4027
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:32 pm
Title: Queen Ducky
First Joined: 25 Feb 2002
Location: The Far East (of Canada)

Postby Jayelle » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:40 pm

Okay, I just (finally) read Mockingjay.

I agree with so much of what you ladies said in this thread. It seemed very...rushed. I was really surprised that at the start so much time had passed. Cinna's death, the destruction of 12, the fact that 13 was there all along... it's just all dropped on us in the first chapter. It felt a bit cheap.

I hated what she did to Gale's character. The destruction of the Mountain in District 2 was so... heartless. It didn't seem like what we knew of him.

I really agree with what Kelly said about the resolution of the love triangle - I was a fan of Peeta and Katniss ending up together, but it didn't seem like she ever deserved him. It was an unsatisfactory ending to what I thought was one of the best love triangles I'd seen in recent fiction.

Prim's death... yeah. Not cool.

But the part I still do NOT understand at all is why Katniss said yes to the Hunger Games with Capitol children. Did she do that just so she could assassinate President Coin? It just did not make sense to me.


Okay, I think that's it. I know you all talked this to death when you all read it 3 months ago, but I may need some group therapy to get me through.
One Duck to rule them all.
--------------------------------
It needs to be about 20% cooler.

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:01 pm

I know what you mean about needing group therapy!

I am pretty sure the only reason that Katniss said yes to the Hunger Games for the capitol children was to have the chance to kill President Coin. I don't think she ever planned to let it happened.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

User avatar
Petrie
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:27 pm
Title: GD in Disguise

Postby Petrie » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:31 pm

I have almost zero recollection of the passages themselves but I do know that at the time Katniss was in a lot of pain from losing her little sister and I thought she wanted to inflict that same type of pain on the people she felt were responsible.

I can't remember the order of things but right now, I'm working under the impression that she didn't want to kill Coin until after she talked to Snow and after it sunk in that he hadn't completely lied to her about events; I want to say that realization didn't happen until she was facing Snow to execute him, even if that (by "that" I mean the talk with snow, not the killing of him) took place before the panel (which I can't remember). I want to say I was thinking it was a last minute decision to turn and kill Coin instead and I think had she not made that decision there, she wouldn't have tried all that hard to stop a Capital Hunger Games from taking place.

I don't know.

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Postby neo-dragon » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:53 pm

Just finished "Mockingjay".

Looking at the series as a whole I have to say that it really lost steam after the first book. I never really did warm up to Katniss. I understand what she had to endure, but at various times I found her whiny, selfish, stupid, and far too quick to bear the weight of the world on her shoulders even when she didn't need to. And the love triangle? I could have done with less of that. Peeta's hijacking seemed like a too much of a deliberate plot device to create more drama on that front.

As for Katniss voting yes for the new Hunger Games, the only way I can not hate her for that is if I believe that she was just going along with what she thought Coin wanted to hear so that she wouldn't suspect the betrayal. Yes, that is what I choose to believe.

Still, all three books had their moments. They're certainly worthwhile reads even if I did find some of "Catching Fire" and much of "Mockingjay" to be lacking.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:57 pm

So, I figured that I'd had enough time to process MOCKINGJAY and it was time for a re-read so that I could try to sort out how much of my feelings were just knee-jerk reactions and how much held on.

I started by rereading both HUNGER GAMES and CATCHING FIRE on the plane trips to and from Boston respectively.

HUNGER GAMES--though I've read it several times now--absolutely consumes me. Despite the fact that I know exactly what is going to happen, I am continually on the edge of my seat. I DEVOUR that book. It is pretty near pitch-perfect in my opinion.

CATCHING FIRE is a little weaker, sure, but also just really, really excellent. The whole first half of the book is wonderful--people have argued that it's a bit slow, but the pacing doesn't bother me. I love that the Games have changed Katniss irrevocably and that we watch her struggle to define herself in a new context. We see relationships she's damaged (Peeta, Gale) but also relationships she's trying to heal (her mother). The mounting tension of the Victory Tour and the realization that she is in way over her head is great. Now, the Games themselves were lame. The whole clock schtick with the arena was just overkill. But the fact that the tributes were sent back into the arena at all? AMAZING. Because I never, ever, ever saw it coming. I figured we'd watch Katniss mentor the new tributes, and see the whole thing from that angle, but never did I dream Collins would send her back in. It was unthinkable. And she did it. And it was AWESOME. The games themselves? Blah, blah, whatever. Still, all in all a good book.

MOCKINGJAY remains...a disappointment. Not only does Katniss become more unlikable (I really loved her in books 1 & 2, in large part because she was so brash and self-absorbed and cynical, but in MOCKINGJAY I just couldn't hang with her anymore) but both Gale and Peeta (through no real fault of his own, I suppose) become sort of unlikable as well. I also don't like the underlying theme of the book: the new regime is just as s***** as the old regime! Boring. Super, super boring. The whole final show down is stupid. The battle in the Capital is set up like an arena? With killer pods? Wtf? Katniss saying yes to the "final" Hunger Games just makes no. damn. sense. People justify it by saying that Katniss agrees in order to have the opportunity to assassinate Coin, and I go with that theory as well, because otherwise my brain would explode, but there's really nothing whatsoever in the text to support that, and I think we're all sort of grasping at straws with that explanation. If that were the case, Collins should have thrown us a bone. Katniss agreeing but shooting a meaningful look at Peeta, or SOMETHING to let us know that Katniss hasn't lost her freaking mind.

I stand by my annoyance with the love triangle "resolution" and still feel totally cheated by it all. I think the ending is so horrifically depressing. Ugh.

This book could have been so much better and it breaks my heart a little bit that it's not.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby Young Val » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:23 am

I figured this was the best place to put this:

Official Hunger Games Teaser Trailer


I am...not impressed. Gale's voice over is...cut weird? It sounds all choppy and awkward. Jennifer Lawrence is...ah. Suffice it to say that I would have GREATLY prefered Hailee Steinfeld in the role. (What I assume to be) Rue's whistle over the final screen of credits/whatever is haunting, but over all I am left completely cold by the whole thing.

Of course I am still TOTALLY going to see it. (Having finished HG and CF, David and I are in the midst of reading MJ aloud right now. For those interested, these are GREAT read aloud books).

Thoughts?
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

VelvetElvis
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:22 am
Title: is real!
First Joined: 0- 9-2004

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby VelvetElvis » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:27 am

Pweb is the only place I've heard of these books.
Yay, I'm a llama again!

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby Young Val » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:42 am

Have you read them, Helen?

I don't know enough about your taste in books to guess as to whether or not they'd be up your alley, but the first one, at the very least is seriously excellent in my opinion!
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

VelvetElvis
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:22 am
Title: is real!
First Joined: 0- 9-2004

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby VelvetElvis » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:47 am

I haven't. Can you give me a nonspoilery description? I don't want to read the rest of the thread just in case.
Yay, I'm a llama again!

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby Young Val » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:14 am

It's Young Adult speculative fiction (not fantasy and not strictly sci-fi, but also decidedly not the world as we recognize and understand it today). It is well-written, well-paced, and extraordinarily gripping.


Here's the official jacket copy (disclaimer: jacket copy is always, ALWAYS terrible).

"In the ruins of a place once known as North America lies the nation of Panem, a shining Capitol surrounded by twelve outlying districts. The Capitol is harsh and cruel and keeps the districts in line by forcing them all to send one boy and one girl between the ages of twelve and eighteen to participate in the annual Hunger Games, a fight to the death on live TV.

Sixteen-year old Katniss Everdeen, who lives alone with her mother and younger sister, regards it as a death sentence when she steps forward to take her sister's place in the Games. But Katniss has been close to dead before -- and survival, for her, is second nature. Without really meaning to, she becomes a contender. But if she is to win, she will have to start making choices that weigh survival against humanity and life against love."
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

VelvetElvis
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:22 am
Title: is real!
First Joined: 0- 9-2004

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby VelvetElvis » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:48 am

Sounds like it has some potential. I'll ask around to see if anyone has a copy to lend.
Yay, I'm a llama again!

User avatar
starlooker
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3823
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm
Title: Dr. Mom
First Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Home. With cats who have names.
Contact:

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby starlooker » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:22 am

Hey, I forgot about this thread. Probably on account of not having read the books when it came out. And, given Kelly's request in the "Currently Reading" thread, here I am.

Short version: I really liked the books. So did Donny. I did not fall in love with Hunger Games the way some people do, nor did I dislike Mockingjay all that much. Honestly, while I really enjoyed The Hunger Games, the plot was somehow less compelling to me. I read it over a series of days, I read Catching Fire and Mockingjay in the same night. This isn't to say that I enjoyed them more than HG, just that I enjoyed them very differently.



Short reviews of all three, and then I'm going to address the points made in the conversation above.

Hunger Games: Ah, the first book of any series is always somewhat wonderful. Things are bad, but not as bad as they're going to be, there's a new world to explore, and things are especially poignant. Rue's death scene absolutely made me weep. I loved the arrow being shot at the judges! I did totally and completely see it coming, that Capitol would not allow two winners. The supporting characters were wonderful. And, pretty well, they remained so throughout the trilogy. Cinna!

Catching Fire: You know, I read a summary of the book before I read the book, and I was like, "Oh, COME ON." Because it basically sounded like The Hunger Games 2.0. And, in a way it was, but it was done WELL. It avoided a lot of what I was afraid of. I liked the way that she played having the previous champions know one another. I liked hearing about prior Hunger Games, Haymitch and Maysilee. I thought the Catching Fire arena was genius. Pure, simple genius. The other thing I liked about Catching Fire was that it really showcased the brutality of the government in a way that Hunger Games did not. And I liked the confrontation Peeta had with Katniss and Haymitch over keeping him in the dark and expecting him to just play his part well without letting him in. That needed to happen. Genre switch happens slowly, then explodes at the end of the book, so that we know what we're dealing with is a whole new set of circumstances. Not sure I liked that. Cinna's beating and death -- yeah, I totally saw that coming, and I'm glad it did. It would have been completely out of character for them to let him live, or for them to kill him without using his suffering to traumatize and horrify Katniss.

Mockingjay: Liked. Solidly come down on "like." I was reading it with different eyes. From reading the jacket covers/Amazon descriptions, I immediately realized we were basically in for a genre-shift in Book 3, and so I read it with that in mind. Compared to your average no-character-development adventure novel, it was beautifully done and excellent. (Donny has gotten me totally into reading no-character-development action novels. There is not a legitimately literarily snobby bone left in my body.)

Donny's succinct review upon finishing Mockingjay: "Everybody got dead." Also, we both totally and utterly approved of President Coin being killed, and neither of us really saw it coming. Good job on that particular piece of plotting.

I did feel like the scenes in Capitol were contrived to give it a Hunger Games 3.0 feeling in what was essentially a war-book. I wish she'd embraced the genre-switch the way I did. I did skim that part some.

The major, major thing that annoyed me, as mentioned by others here, is Peeta's magical recovery from a type of brainwashing heretofore never encountered. (Also, pffft. "Prim suggested we try pairing memories of Peeta with calming drugs." Because, what, no one in District 13 has access to an undergraduate education in psychology, including the shrinks? You're fucking kidding me. )

With regards to Katniss's treatment of Peeta and behavior overall, honestly, I give Katniss the same benefit of the doubt that Alea does. I think having her confess her feelings to Peeta other than in the brief scene they have would have been completely and totally unrealistic given her broken state of mind. Too much time working with people who have experienced chronic trauma for me to think it's remotely reasonable to expect that of her at that point. I LIKE that Ms. Collins did not somehow make her total betrayal by everyone --including Peeta being gruesomely dragged from her in the worst way possibly, her baby sister being blown up before her eyes by allies who essentially were trying to make her into a pawn by doing so -- become an impetus for you know, becoming a trusting person who easily attaches to others. I would have found THAT to be a complete and utter cop out. Character arc? Sure. If you suddenly jerk the arc backwards with no reason other than the desire for the main character to "grow." She did grow. She did grow amazingly, holy gods. I was crazy touched by the fact that she was able to trust life, herself, and Peeta enough to have children. That practically makes me cry thinking about it, and to me it says MOUNTAINS about her eventual recovery. The fact that this takes place slowly over a 15-year time span and longer IS AS IT SHOULD BE.

I believe she eventually talked about her feelings with Peeta. I believe she worked in her relationship for it to last. And I think it was just not feasible to show in the book without having a huge genre switch after the main plot was over.

Also, I do happen to think, "He was there for me when I needed someone" is not the worst reason a person could have to be with another person, unless it's the only reason. Especially not a person who you have loved, who knows you, and who has been through hell with you. I agree, I don't think she would have sought him out. Again, I feel sort of like it would have been cruel to expect her to at that point, without dragging out the whole book. In short, the "He got better!" trope with Peeta was bad enough. Putting Katniss through it would have seemed wrong.

(I also enjoyed reading about them on TVTropes.)
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3165
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby Young Val » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:48 am

Such interesting food-for-though, Kirsten. I don't know that your position has changed my opnions at all, but it's certainly opened me up a little bit.

I think one of the major differences is that I did NOT embrace the genre-shift the way you did, though, like you, I fully noted that Collins didn't really embrace it either.

To me, HG and CF are so clearly character-driven: it is all about Katniss. And yes, the over-arching plot of the series as a whole is fascinating, but it's not the point. And then, suddenly, in MOCKINGJAY it becomes the entire point. It's jarring, because we're still in Katniss's head, but she's so very damaged (and I'm not saying she shouldn't be) that having the focus be on all of this external stuff instead of her personal journey is...not cohesive.

And frankly, a war book just didn't interest me, because Katniss herself truly couldn't give a s*** about the war. Never has, never will. She has rare moments where her temper gets the better of her, and because she wants to lash out at something/someone she gets all gung-ho for a minute. But throughout the entire series her feelings about the rebellion are lukewarm at best. She doesn't care, so I don't care.


I still feel cheated by the "time heals everything" epilogue. I think the epilogue is tragic. Collins broke those two characters down completely and then just hit the fast forward button because it was easy.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
starlooker
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3823
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm
Title: Dr. Mom
First Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Home. With cats who have names.
Contact:

Re: MOCKINGJAY spoilers

Postby starlooker » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:09 pm

What kind of epilogue would have felt right to you?

ETA: Oh, by the way, I totally agree with you about the horrific names she gives her characters, and in that sense, it's a mercy "boy" and "girl" are left up to the imagination :)
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter


Return to “Milagre Town Square”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 20 guests