I think the issue here is more that they were trying to prove they did not need God. And that is a far bigger issue, because the whole of humanity needs Him. I would suggest, actually, that every act that is done in arrogance is done to prove God is not necessary and when one knows that God exists, it is spitting in His face. So it is not because God needs His ego, but because humans were trying to make permanent the rift between God and man.
(emphasis added)
Who says the part that I bolded? How do you explain that “need†(to a non believer such as myself)?
My reasons for the whole of humanity needing God go back to the need for redemption and the Goodness of God (I can’t remember if I discussed that in this thread or another). To a non-believer, the best I can offer to you is this framework in which it is true.
The part that I underlined, well, that’s a tricky one. I can accept the possibility that the people involved in the “Babel Project†knew God existed (meaning that they had some sufficient proof). So in their case, the “interpretation†(i.e. they “spat in His faceâ€) could be valid. Yet I see no way to extrapolate that to “all that is done in arrogance†by Man. I can name at least one person (myself) that doesn’t know that God exists. For me it is just a character in an ancient story. Am I arrogant? What if I want to build an “Anywhere Tower†to prove my capacities? I don’t do it to “spit in the face of God†because I have no sufficient reason to believe there is a God to offend. Or is that attitude my “fault/sinâ€? I’ve asked (into the “etherâ€) many times for “sufficient proof†yet every day I discover more evidence of the inconsistency of the “God story†(and that inconsistency is my sufficient proof to disbelieve the existence).
Okay, let me try re-wording this as I didn’t quite say things the way I intended.
“I would suggest, actually, that every act that is done in arrogance is done to prove God is not necessary and when one knows that God exists, it is spitting in His face.â€
What might be better to say is that every act that is done in arrogance is done to prove that someone is either wrong or not necessary, the act is prideful. And pride sets yourself up as the highest authority in something, which by definition puts yourself higher than God. In that way, when one knows that God exists, it is spitting in His face.
As for your further examples, they are largely irrelevant to the story. There is no direction that “thou shalt not devise tall towers for God shall surely divide thy language.†If you do not do something out of arrogance, then this story is not applicable.
Do we still agree that people should be judged on what they know? Would you call my confidence in my capabilities (as limited as they are) a “selfish pride�
I still agree that people should be judged on what they know. And I think that I am unable to tell you when your confidence becomes pride.
Plus, if the “important facts†are what you propose, then what’s the point in talking about the alteration of the languages of Man of Babel?
There is one thing to say: “there is a group of 1000 people building a tower. Yesterday they were cooperating because they were talking the same language. Today they can’t cooperate anymore because they speak different languages (as a result of divine intervention)â€,
and there is another thing to say:
all God'd have to do is create different languages in people and then let the languages evolve from there.
Do you see the difference?
The two points you describe here really are not comparable as they deal with entirely different topics and do not assist or disagree with each other.
The reason for dividing languages this way, from what I can see, was to divide the people so they could not complete this project and hold it as an idol of their greatness. That would be a reason why the ending is included in the story. Another reason being, obviously, that perhaps it did happen this way and the author felt it important to note the fact.
The point to which you compared the first deals rather with how we have different languages today. It is a comment on the development of language and not on the historical accuracy of the story by our logic. (And really, I think that even if God didn’t divide the language at Babel, we would have many different languages today because of people living in their smaller communities, forming accents, then dialects, then languages.)
To be honest though, for me, all it does is to “justify†a self-proclaimed “chosen people†(Israel) to “spread the truthâ€. Until I find sufficient proof of that “truthâ€, it is just another chapter in the “God storyâ€.
On one hand, God is good and loves everybody just the same. On the other hand, He chooses a people to spread the truth to all the others, to allow
that people to do “the things God doesâ€. What about the others? Isn’t it “bad†for the “chosen people†to have a "very solid" reason to feel
superior to the others? Isn't pride what this is all about?
I personally find it very difficult to accept that the things that I don’t understand about God (the incoherence of that story I mean) are due to my limited capabilities and not to the imperfections in a human creation … I just wanted to say this before anyone drops the "we can't understand the reasons of God" line.
I think I’ll answer this slightly out of order. First, the bit about having a reason to be proud. I do not think that pride is about having a reason to feel superior. That is something that nobody can control at all. Someone who is naturally very good at mechanics or art can not help being superior in their respective fields to someone who is naturally poor at working with machines or art. It is not possible, nor should they be blamed for it. So, that can not be pride. Pride, I would say, is taking delight in being superior or emphasising superiority inordinately. Looking down on others, the poor souls, who have not been granted the Word of God is also prideful. Pride is not an ability, but, rather, a mindset. So it is true that God gives the
opportunity to be proud, but that does not justify
being proud. God is certainly good and He does love everybody just the same, but this does not mean He teaches them all the same. Some people He teaches Himself, and to others He sends those whom He has taught.
On your ability to understand everything in the Bible, I wouldn’t worry too much. I know a nun who is always saying, if you ever get it all figured out she’ll build your shrine herself. It took her mother some sixty years to “get†the Lord’s Prayer, so if you do not understand something, you are definitely not alone. Even people who have been actively studying and practicing Christians their entire lives do not fully understand some of the most common stories.
And now, your search for proof. I suppose the best thing I could do is direct you to
Mere Christianity, by C. S. Lewis, as it deals with that very topic.