Capital Punishment - again.

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Capital Punishment - again.

Postby Satya » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:19 am

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Broadcast/conv ... 967&page=1
The Mechanics of the Firing Squad for Ronnie Lee Gardner
Convicted Killer Ronnie Lee Gardner Will Be Shot By Firing Squad at Midnight
Make no mistake: I'm for capital punishment in certain, narrowly-defined situations (such as that concerning one Ronnie Lee Gardner). But the firing squad as the method of choice sounds... dubious to me.
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:31 am

It was the prisoners own choice, and you can argue about whether it's "humane" or not, but like he said, the lethal injection looks more like a flu shot than an execution. Killing should never be easy.
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Postby jotabe » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:56 am

Why not? how is it less humane than others?

I would object at having to be blindfolded and tied up: you can't allow yourself the romantic pose of tearing your shirt open to display your bared chest to the firing squad.

Also, you can decide to troll them by having them shot at you at point blank range with sawn-off shotguns.

Seriously, firing squad is win every time, and fun can be had by one and by all.
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Postby buckshot » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:04 am

I'm all for it too ! But often the firing squad is too kind for most of these assholes! :)

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:36 am

It was the prisoners own choice
This.

I especially have no problem with it when someone chooses a method still on the books but rarely used as an effort of delaying the execution, as I suspect was the case, here. (Note: It might not be the case, here, as I haven't really done a lot of research on the issue. But it's certainly been done by a number of death-row inmates in the past.)
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Postby Satya » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:29 pm

Isn't there a state where hanging is still on the books as an option?
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:44 pm

Washington. It's been used as recently as the 1990s.
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Postby Rei » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:24 pm

I'm generally quite opposed to capital punishment, but of the various means, I really don't see how firing squad is any more or less humane than lethal injection. There is a terrible difficulty in acknowledging human dignity where executions are concerned, although it is essential to maintain it in order to keep capital punishment as just that, punishment and not vengeance. If only for that, it is good that condemned people can have some say in their manner of death.
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Postby Satya » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:36 pm

Perhaps a better "manner of death" would be having to live out the remainder of their natural lives working for the improvement of everyone else, since they have made them to suffer in some manner (all of us suffer when such crimes are committed; morally, ethically, and financially.) A lifetime of hard labor doing things that benefit society-at-large is a better 'execution' than any actual permanent case of death we can inflict on a perpetrator.
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Postby Rei » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:52 pm

Quite possibly that is true. One still has the issue of maintaining a certain degree of human dignity (and by that I don't mean making things cushy), but it strikes me as more beneficial all around (and it also dodges a lot of the objections to capital punishment).

As much as I do not support capital punishment, I do think Canada's justice system has swung too far in the other direction where a life sentence is defined as 25 years. I can't recall if parole is only available then or if it can be applied for at 18 years commonly.
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Postby Satya » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:59 pm

I'm with you on that. I don't think we ought to treat them cruelly, but since we're maintaining them for life, society ought to benefit from it. Killing them is of little benefit to anyone. It may momentarily satiate the victim's families' sense of justice, but not only are they not the only ones who suffer, it can never truly provide justice to merely and simply end the life of the guilty party.

Again, I'm not against capital punishment when I say this.. There are narrow, well-defined instances where it is not only warranted and justified but altogether appropriate. However, in the vast majority of cases it would be far more cost-effective, humane, and socially beneficial to put such individuals to work. It provides a quantifiable benefit to society, avoids moral dilemmas regarding execution, prevents the costly judicial system decades of appeal and research, and even provides the guilty party with the opportunity to, not only 'live', but perhaps, find a semblance of remorse and reform. While they may never get 'out' of their punishment, they may still have the opportunity to be something more than a hardened criminal on death row for years, or worse - a corpse, of no good to anyone.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:36 am

I'm with you on that. I don't think we ought to treat them cruelly, but since we're maintaining them for life, society ought to benefit from it. Killing them is of little benefit to anyone. It may momentarily satiate the victim's families' sense of justice, but not only are they not the only ones who suffer, it can never truly provide justice to merely and simply end the life of the guilty party.

Again, I'm not against capital punishment when I say this.. There are narrow, well-defined instances where it is not only warranted and justified but altogether appropriate. However, in the vast majority of cases it would be far more cost-effective, humane, and socially beneficial to put such individuals to work. It provides a quantifiable benefit to society, avoids moral dilemmas regarding execution, prevents the costly judicial system decades of appeal and research, and even provides the guilty party with the opportunity to, not only 'live', but perhaps, find a semblance of remorse and reform. While they may never get 'out' of their punishment, they may still have the opportunity to be something more than a hardened criminal on death row for years, or worse - a corpse, of no good to anyone.
I agree with pretty much all of this. Except I'm generally against capital punishment. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary in specific cases, but I've yet to be convinced of its necessity.
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Postby jotabe » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:44 am

And if they are in prision for good, with forced labor, and you don't want to treat them cruelly... how are you going to "estimulate" them to work?

A prisioner for a limited time might comply with forced labor so as to shorten, or at least not enlarge, their sentence. Cruel treatment might also enforce compliance. But i don't see why someone who has nothing to lose and nothing to gain will accept having to work.
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Postby Psudo » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:47 am

Making people work and depriving them of the financial rewards of their work is indistinguishable from slavery, which we've decided is universally immoral.

Execution is distinguishable from murder in that first there's an orderly trial based on laws, evidence, and logic in which the accused are allowed to defend themselves against the claims of their accusers.

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Postby Satya » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:02 am

Making people work and depriving them of the financial rewards of their work is indistinguishable from slavery, which we've decided is universally immoral.
We have? Hah, you couldn't tell the difference between some "free" people and their relationships with their employers these days and "slaves" and their relationships to their masters. These people we're talking about are those who violated the social contract that permits us all to live in such a 'free' environment; they have willfully given up certain rights. Telling someone who has committed heinous, irreconcilable crimes that they have a choice - both of which are lifelong - is not 'universally immoral.' They can have the choice, of course - it's just a choice between 22 hours of lockdown (which is the common denominator for such criminals as it stands) or a modicum of freedom in exchange for providing useful labor to the society they have so egregiously harmed. This answers Jota's question as well; what do they have to gain? There are plenty of things that are preferable to spending 95% of your time in solitary confinement.
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Postby Psudo » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:43 am

Hah, you couldn't tell the difference between some "free" people and their relationships with their employers these days and "slaves" and their relationships to their masters.
Haha, so true! We could split hairs about ability to quit, legal protection of human rights, and reward for work, but so many people act towards their employers as if they were owned by them.

Maybe that's a hair worth splitting: for slaves, their condition is the result of their master's will. For so-called "wage slaves", their condition is the result of their own will.
These people we're talking about are those who violated the social contract that permits us all to live in such a 'free' environment; they have willfully given up certain rights.
This argument also defends capital punishment.
They can have the choice [...] between 22 hours of lockdown [...] or a modicum of freedom in exchange for providing useful labor to the society
Interesting concept. Two major challenges work against implementing it: 1) opportunities for escape are increased when the prisoner is given access to more places, tools, or goods, and 2) opportunities for drug distribution are increased when goods are routinely moving in and out of the prison, especially when the prisoner is handling them directly.

There is certainly a class of prisoner for whom providing useful labor (even getting paid for it!) would be a great idea; non-violent, low risk of escape, no drug history. I don't think that class of prisoner often overlaps death row.

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Postby jotabe » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:58 am

Well, i see your point. Solitary confinement seems pretty bad. They'd probably go nuts if they weren't to begin with.
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Postby Rei » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:25 am

Also, work without pay does not mean working 14 hour days breaking rocks with sledgehammers while they get beaten at random. Yes, it would be a situation akin to slavery, but along with that there could be things like 8-hour days and useful labour along with a continued emphasis against random physical abuse.
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Postby Psudo » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:29 am

Forced work without pay is the definition of slave labor. Whether you treat your slaves well or not is a separate moral issue.

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Postby Rei » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:37 am

And in certain circumstances I'm okay with the notion of slave labour, assuming moral treatment of them. As I've said several times in this thread already, so long as we maintain their human dignity, any option not execution is worth looking at.
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Postby jotabe » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:37 am

Forced work would be slavery regardless of pay. Slaves could receive wagers for some of their works, but as long as their freedom was still in the hands of their masters. They could be slaves even without having to work, if their master so desired.

Prisioners are not slaves, even if they have to work: the society takes a criminal's freedom away to protect itself from them, but without taking ownership.
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Postby Psudo » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:58 am

I agree with both of you, except this tiny point: "society takes a criminal's freedom away to protect itself from them, but without taking ownership." If society benefits from work it forces prisoners to perform, it has taken ownership of them.

Make the work voluntary. Give them the choice, work or rot in their cell. After that, I won't complain about it.

Others will. Prisons are already disproportionately full of blacks. Anything that looks even vaguely like slavery will be crushed by the hammer of public opinion. Look at the criticism of Sheriff Joe Arpaio's voluntary chain gangs.

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Postby Satya » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:05 pm

That's kind of what I said. They'd get a choice.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:56 pm

I think that people, on the whole, like being useful. Productive labour (as Marxist as that sounds) does motive a lot of people. I know that I would eventually want to participate in a work program just as an alternative to sheer boredom. And it's not just about solitary confinement, either. You don't have to be utterly isolated to get sick of a 10x10 room.

Of course, I do think prisoners who work should get some kind of nominal remuneration. It shouldn't be a fortune, but the ability to buy some smokes or a coke now and again would help keep unrest down.
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Postby jotabe » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:26 pm

the ability to buy some smokes
Firing squad or lethal injection are much more humane ways of doing them in ;)
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Postby buckshot » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:33 pm

A while back here in Washington there was this convicted child molester and murderer that was sentenced to hang for the many crimes he did. He (Wesley Allen Dodd , funny I remember his name) fought against the anti's trying to get a stay of execution and let him serve out his sentence. As I remember it he said he was a danger to kids and would re offend and found his sentence a fair one , and he thankfully was hanged and I do offer him a bit of respect for that.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:39 pm

Changing the topic a bit, I wish that we could crack down on the prevalence of prison rape. As much as my vicious animal sense of retribution loves the idea, the side that strives for a better combo of justice and mercy thinks that if rape is wrong, it's always wrong. If I accept that there are circumstances where rape is okay, I weaken my argument against rape in general. "He was asking for it" really isn't a huge leap from "she was asking for it" and I'm highly uncomfortable with that.

Also, I do believe that we have courts and judges to administer the combination of justice, punishment, and keeping-the-streets-safe which we, as a society, have decided is appropriate, and a tacit acceptance of prison rape is a form of vigilantism.
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Postby Psudo » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:51 pm

An especially corrupt form of vigilantism, too. I agree with your motivations, but can anything reasonable be done? Victims don't like to admit to it, prisoners generally know how to avoid detection through daily practice. Apart from universal solitary confinement, I don't know what protections the law can offer to those who are intentionally hiding from it.

Tangentially, has anyone seen the TV show Life? It touches on some of these issues (homicide detective is wrongfully sentenced to life in prison, is exonerated 9 years later, gets multimillion dollar settlement, and returns to his old job). It's pretty entertaining to boot.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:07 pm

I don't see "Well, we probably can't put a stop to it anyway" as a justification for not trying. For any crime.
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Postby buckshot » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:37 pm

The whole idea of prison rape or violence is messed up! All the inmates should be under control all of the time period. We spend a fortune keeping every inmate and we need to see to it that each one is able to do His or Her sentence unmolested ,even if they do deserve to suffer such treatment.

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Postby locke » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:22 am

prisons create crime. prison rape is sanctioned by our acceptance of it. The retributive impulse is alive and well in the structures we create within a prison society that promote and ensure the continuation of a rape culture.

in other words we find prison rape to be just as valuable (if not a more valuable) as a crime deterrant as the threat of simply prison.

In other words, prison is not as satisfying a punishment to society if we take the rape out of it.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby jotabe » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:21 am

If prision rape is allowed, then, by no means should anyone be allowed to get out of prision, ever. Not inmates, but no guards or staff, either.

If law and order can't make themselves omnipresent in a controlled environment as a prision is, what message is being sent to the inmates? That law and order can be bypassed by the passivity of the guards, or by earning their favor. That whenever a person stronger than you harrasses you, law enforcement will not help you.

These are not the kinds of idea i want in the minds of people who walk among society.

Btw, one thing is solitary confinement, other is personal cells, and videovigilance.
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Postby locke » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:45 am

exactly. Prison is a controlled environment. it is a relatively simple thing to eliminate rape in such an environment.

If we wanted to we could do it easily.

No one wants to because everyone is tacitly okay with prison rape.

After all, it only happens to criminals.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:37 am

Also, I do believe that we have courts and judges to administer the combination of justice, punishment, and keeping-the-streets-safe which we, as a society, have decided is appropriate, and a tacit acceptance of prison rape is a form of vigilantism.
Y'know, it's the damnedest thing, but I don't remember being consulted about the judicial system. In fact, I'm pretty sure that when "we as a society" decided prison was the appropriate reaction to crimes, it was only to hold them until they were flogged or hanged, and prison itself as the punishment only emerged out of crude ideas about psychological correction from the 18th century. But, while our understanding of the human psyche has evolved leaps and bounds since then, our corrections system is sorely lacking. Frankly it still remains a system of institutionalized vengeance, rather than an attempt to actually deal with, or correct the behavior. Is "Do a bad thing and get punished" really the best, most sophisticated attempt at corrections our society can mount?
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Postby Satya » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:54 am

Yes, actually. It is.

Negative reinforcement was, is, and will most likely remain the most effective method of dealing with negative behavior. Just as positive reinforcement is the most effective means of showing approval for positive behavior. And your crude understanding of judicial action in societies through history is distorted, at best. Do you have alternatives that haven't already been thoroughly debunked?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

Do a bad thing, get punished. What else is there? Do a bad thing, get... what? Get scolded? Get "re-educated on how and why not to do bad things?" Get... what, exactly?
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