Scientifical Truthiness and Manly Confidenceness

[Caspian]

We all know how that turns out, though.

No we don't.

[jotabe]

Well, i decided to stop arguing this.
I just would like to apologize for the personal attack. I felt it was called for because of your insistent use of derogatory terms towards people like me, but i was mistaken.

[Luet]

Of course they love the guy defending the epitome of the "nice guy" role on paper. We all know how that turns out, though.

No, you really don't. I dated two misogynists before getting married and, fortunately, wised up and found a "nice guy" to settle down with. Granted, it felt WEIRD to be with him at first because he treated me so well but I knew it was the was it was supposed to be.

[Syphon the Sun]

I think there's a pretty big gap between "nice guy" and "pushover," "insecure guy," etc. But hey, maybe that's just me.

[Luet]

Jota might label himself an insecure guy but he sure doesn't come across that way on here. What I find attractive is not so much what he says but the manner in which he says it. He defends his position strongly but with humor. He is not aggressive and belittling.

[starlooker]

We all know how that turns out, though.

Yeah. We eventually got engaged.

Granted, there are some women for whom my guy's degree of niceness/sweetness would be unattractive. Because (hint, hint) girls/women are not all really the same underneath and do not actually all secretly want the same things.

Anyhow, I've posted on pweb before about the whole Gottman theory of conflict types, I was just thinking about how it might relate to the whole "nice guys" issue. The background: people, both male and female, tend to fall into three categories. Avoidant, validating, or volatile. Conflict avoidant people tend to try to cover up conflict as quickly as possible and will nearly instantly focus on reassuring one another of the positive things in the relationship. Validating people like to have long, meaningful discussions of feelings and are the people for whom the traditional "I-statement" style of conflict resolution comes naturally. Volatile people like the passion and excitement that comes from a good argument, and also tend to be equally passionate when it comes to declarations of devotion and love. And it seems one of the factors that most influences relationship success is being matched with someone of the same style.

What does this have to do with anything?

I wonder if some of your "nice guys" are possibly avoiders/validators and if their hearts are set on someone who is a different style -- that person is likely to respond along the same lines as the female in the comic Cam put up. It's not because she's a woman and that's just how they are. It's because you are probably not really as compatable as you like to think you are. She is likely attracted to the assholes because she gets them, they make sense to her in a way the "nice guys" don't. At least, when it comes to being in a romantic relationship. And not all women would be attracted to the guys she is attracted to, either.

Me? I'm conflict-avoidant as all hell, and so is the nice guy I'm marrying. (I'm very much validator in my professional and friendship roles, but in romantic/family relationships, I'm usually a determined avoider.) He has never once raised his voice to me in three years -- our fights generally end extremely quickly, neither of us are usually prone to grudge-holding and we both like to talk about what's happy in our relationship rather than what's negative. If the other person is sad or hurt for any reason, we are both anxious to fix it ASAP, whether we caused it or not. However, we usually prefer to fix it in ways that do not involve long, drawn-out discussion.

And that works for us. Even though some people, I'm certain, would think that my former Marine big, brawny tough guy is acting like a puppy dog. And it would turn some women off. Not because they are women, but because that is not their style. They'd either feel like communication was being cut off or be bored. Not me, because we're similar in that regard, and I get it and prefer it.

Quit blaming women for not liking "nice guys." Quit blaming the run-of-the-mill nice guys for not being assertive enough, having enough backbone, whatever. People are who they are sometimes. Do feel free to place blame on people who insist on continuing to pursue relationships with people who are just plain not interested or who keep giving them the runaround. Fool me once, shame on you, etc.



And, also, anecdotal evidence -- even repeated, self-fulfilling, collective anecdotal evidence -- is not a reliable source on which to base conclusions. It's not about "them." It is about that particular person who reacted in that way, not about how all women are or how all men are.

Or, for that matter, how all insecure people are. Jota, dude, I've probably talked with more people than anyone on this board about issues with anxiety/depression/insecurity. I probably have more conversations about it per week than most people do in an average year. So, I feel pretty confident in saying that there are about a zillion different ways that insecurity -- even extreme insecurity -- gets expressed for different people. The trait does not define the person, and differing reactions don't necessarily indicate how real the insecurity is. You can't say how every insecure person is going to act or feel based on yourself or a few insecure people you know. Wanna know who's insecure? Narcissists (well, a certain subset of narcissists). Deeply, down to the core insecure. They just react in a different way than you, by doing their damnedest to convince themselves they are worthy of praise and entitled to it and that everything they do is just fine.

Anyhow, I must get on to my non-pweb life now.

[Luet]

You rock.

[Satya]

I disagree, Luet. She does not, in fact, rock. At least, nothing in that post does anything to imply that she does.

And, also, anecdotal evidence -- even repeated, self-fulfilling, collective anecdotal evidence -- is not a reliable source on which to base conclusions.

Um.. her entire post was based on just that kind anecdotal evidence and her limited observation of others.

Now, I don't even have an opinion on this topic, except for this: you're all wrong.

[Caspian]

Actually, while anecdotal evidence is not a reliable source for conclusions, an anecdote is sufficient to disprove an absolute claim. Not enough to reach a conclusion, but enough to invalidate one.

When someone says "all women such and such" a single counterexample is enough to disprove the argument.

[daPyr0x]

Quit blaming women for not liking "nice guys." Quit blaming the run-of-the-mill nice guys for not being assertive enough, having enough backbone, whatever.

I'm not blaming anybody necessarily. I don't blame women for not liking "nice guys," I don't like needy, insecure women either. No, "nice guy" does not equal needy and insecure; but most who identify themselves as such do. However, when these "nice guys" complain about not being able to get women or whathaveyou, it is often a result of their own lack of initiative or - to put it bluntly - balls.

And, also, anecdotal evidence -- even repeated, self-fulfilling, collective anecdotal evidence -- is not a reliable source on which to base conclusions. It's not about "them." It is about that particular person who reacted in that way, not about how all women are or how all men are.

...isn't that...what you offered?
I mean, I know you're a trained professional with far more knowledge on the subject than any of us....but, isn't that exactly what you're using?


I was thinking about this last night, the true origin of this thread...

Manliness is being in control of your emotions. It's being able to feel your emotions for what they are, use them to fuel you towards your goals, and push through them when they're holding you back. It's being able to understand them and the cause of them, and use your higher reasoning to determine the best course of action.

[Satya]

And, also, anecdotal evidence -- even repeated, self-fulfilling, collective anecdotal evidence -- is not a reliable source on which to base conclusions. It's not about "them." It is about that particular person who reacted in that way, not about how all women are or how all men are.

...isn't that...what you offered?
I mean, I know you're a trained professional with far more knowledge on the subject than any of us....but, isn't that exactly what you're using?

That's exactly what I just said.

[daPyr0x]

Yeah I know, but I couldn't feign originality without copying from somewhere....