BP Oil Spill
- Janus%TheDoorman
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There's a right way of discussing things and there's a wrong way of discussing things. Satya, you're going about things in very much the wrong way.
First and foremost, the Oil Spill is not a HUGE deal on the scale of national level issues. It just isn't. Your conservative estimate of ~$4.5Bn in lost revenue sounds horrifying, especially when you frame it as coming at a crucial point in the recovery of the national economy, but the US GDP is $14.6Tr. You're talking about a loss of .03% of the national economy. For one year, maybe two. Not a big deal.
The spill will do damage on the scale of years, or decades. The environment's been kicking for several billion years, and will continue to do so for quite a while. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, or that it's okay that it happened, but it's not a huge threat to the continued survival of the ecosystem in the region. This isn't the sacking of Baghdad. It's more like spilling red wine on a carpet. Yeah, you'll likely have to spend quite a lot of time and work getting the stain out, to the point of it being a pain in the ass, but in the end, it's just something you'd LIKE to see done, not something your livelihood depends on.
The health risks are undeniably regrettable, but again, not a HUGE deal on the national level. This isn't the bubonic plague, or smallpox, or even polio. The risks of a spill were well understood when the governments we elected into office moved forward with granting the use of public lands for drilling operations. Having to pay the piper hurts, but that's what you get when you sign on the dotted line.
The spill certainly has implications for the larger issue of our national energy policy - can profit-seeking corporations ever truly be expected to weigh the cost in human life against the risk of an operational disaster as more than a per-item cost for settling any lawsuits? If so, how do we promote this attitude and punish those that deviate from it?
The idea of criminal prosecution has been bandied about, but if Scott West is to be believed, significant portions of our government are already compromised beyond the chance of this coming to fruition.
Does the risk of these sort of disasters justify the additional cost of renewable or safer energy at this time, when oil is still relatively abundant? If so, just how much are we willing to pay to shift the country off from oil ASAP?
Ultimately this spill is just another reminder of the ongoing risk of carbon based energy related disasters. This is a stone that's long weighed on the balancing scale between those and renewable or nuclear energies. So far it hasn't been heavy enough to tip the scale. This spill makes it slightly heavier, but I don't foresee it being enough to outweigh the cost of a renewable-energy changeover. As such, this spill doesn't rate as a big deal in the history of the nation, just another footnote.
First and foremost, the Oil Spill is not a HUGE deal on the scale of national level issues. It just isn't. Your conservative estimate of ~$4.5Bn in lost revenue sounds horrifying, especially when you frame it as coming at a crucial point in the recovery of the national economy, but the US GDP is $14.6Tr. You're talking about a loss of .03% of the national economy. For one year, maybe two. Not a big deal.
The spill will do damage on the scale of years, or decades. The environment's been kicking for several billion years, and will continue to do so for quite a while. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, or that it's okay that it happened, but it's not a huge threat to the continued survival of the ecosystem in the region. This isn't the sacking of Baghdad. It's more like spilling red wine on a carpet. Yeah, you'll likely have to spend quite a lot of time and work getting the stain out, to the point of it being a pain in the ass, but in the end, it's just something you'd LIKE to see done, not something your livelihood depends on.
The health risks are undeniably regrettable, but again, not a HUGE deal on the national level. This isn't the bubonic plague, or smallpox, or even polio. The risks of a spill were well understood when the governments we elected into office moved forward with granting the use of public lands for drilling operations. Having to pay the piper hurts, but that's what you get when you sign on the dotted line.
The spill certainly has implications for the larger issue of our national energy policy - can profit-seeking corporations ever truly be expected to weigh the cost in human life against the risk of an operational disaster as more than a per-item cost for settling any lawsuits? If so, how do we promote this attitude and punish those that deviate from it?
The idea of criminal prosecution has been bandied about, but if Scott West is to be believed, significant portions of our government are already compromised beyond the chance of this coming to fruition.
Does the risk of these sort of disasters justify the additional cost of renewable or safer energy at this time, when oil is still relatively abundant? If so, just how much are we willing to pay to shift the country off from oil ASAP?
Ultimately this spill is just another reminder of the ongoing risk of carbon based energy related disasters. This is a stone that's long weighed on the balancing scale between those and renewable or nuclear energies. So far it hasn't been heavy enough to tip the scale. This spill makes it slightly heavier, but I don't foresee it being enough to outweigh the cost of a renewable-energy changeover. As such, this spill doesn't rate as a big deal in the history of the nation, just another footnote.
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
-Alan Watts
-Alan Watts
- Wil
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Satya is kind of like morning wood. You didn't ask for it, you typically can't burn it because nobody wants to go through the effort when they're so tired of it, it's difficult to hide, and is an unsightly blight upon the world, but nobody wants to point it out, and all you want is for it to go away so you can relieve yourself in peace without having to go through all the effort to reposition yourself to avoid it pissing everywhere and on everything.
P.S. No more squeaky oysters in the gulf.
P.S. No more squeaky oysters in the gulf.
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Well, maybe we should give BP executives a bigger bonus.
Or maybe Exxon Mobil should execute a hostile takeover of BP as it has lost $62.7 billion in market capitalization.
Or maybe Exxon Mobil should execute a hostile takeover of BP as it has lost $62.7 billion in market capitalization.
TG M203 Bunker, PFC, 1st Corps, CoD Division, PC Brigade, 1st BTN, Chungking (ST) Squad, SM
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
- Janus%TheDoorman
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- Satya
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Jota, I'm not an Objectivist. Or am I? ... No, I'm not. Randian Objectivism is the foundational base for LaVeyan Satanism (Anton having been a plagiarizing charlatan), and I want nothing to do with it. Though I admire Rand's accomplishments and believe firmly in the democratic Capitalism (capital "C" philosophical construct of individual rights), I do not subscribe to her overall Objectivist philosophy. The discussions I've had here about it were all to disspell misunderstandings/deliberate twistings of the idea with those who had a loose grasp of it. ... Though I do take offense at the idea that dishonesty is somehow a hallmark of an Objectivist, wherein Truth is a paramount virtue. Lastly, go f*** yourself.
Yoda shushing you with his finger to his lips, I think, is awesome. Anyone who disagrees is a communist.
Yoda shushing you with his finger to his lips, I think, is awesome. Anyone who disagrees is a communist.
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Ok, seeing as you seem so against things like the oil spill, then I'd like to see how well you'd do without your car and electricity, as they use fossil fuels.
TG M203 Bunker, PFC, 1st Corps, CoD Division, PC Brigade, 1st BTN, Chungking (ST) Squad, SM
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
- Satya
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Logically fallacious argument. More than one, in fact. I'll give you a point if you actually figure out which ones you violated.
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I think this is the first time you actually take offense to something
Not that i will retract it: Objectivism is an essentially dishonest moral philosophy, not because it's made of lies, but because it's contradictory with itself and a lie about human nature.
Also, i thought your reason to be against objectivism would be a bit more logical: a certain ideology can't really be blamed for the faults that spinoffs make. Specially when objectivism is an agnostic philosophy, and any version of the Satanism i can think of is necessarily theistic.
I thank you for your final advice, but i find it unreasonable, as it is mechanically impossible.
Btw, i don't think i caught 5 fallacies; 2, maybe 3 is all i managed.
Not that i will retract it: Objectivism is an essentially dishonest moral philosophy, not because it's made of lies, but because it's contradictory with itself and a lie about human nature.
Also, i thought your reason to be against objectivism would be a bit more logical: a certain ideology can't really be blamed for the faults that spinoffs make. Specially when objectivism is an agnostic philosophy, and any version of the Satanism i can think of is necessarily theistic.
I thank you for your final advice, but i find it unreasonable, as it is mechanically impossible.
Btw, i don't think i caught 5 fallacies; 2, maybe 3 is all i managed.
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So... about that cap. A cautious hooray that something is finally working even a little bit!
"Only for today, I will devote 10 minutes of my time to some good reading, remembering that just as food is necessary to the life of the body, so good reading is necessary to the life of the soul." -- Pope John XXIII
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That wasn't supposed to be a logical sentence. That was a dare.
TG M203 Bunker, PFC, 1st Corps, CoD Division, PC Brigade, 1st BTN, Chungking (ST) Squad, SM
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
- Janus%TheDoorman
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Do you mean the cap that's letting through 94% of the oil, or have they come up with something slightly more effective than the statistical margin of error in the measurements?So... about that cap. A cautious hooray that something is finally working even a little bit!
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
-Alan Watts
-Alan Watts
- Satya
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Hence my complete dismissal of anything you ever say.That wasn't supposed to be a logical sentence.
And by the way, the five were:
1. Tu quoque fallacy
2. Straw man / red herring
3. Loaded question (plurium interrogationum)
4. Appeal to ridicule (reductio ad ridiculum)
5. Argument against the individual (ad hominem)
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Hence my dismissal of anything you say.Lastly, go f*** yourself.
TG M203 Bunker, PFC, 1st Corps, CoD Division, PC Brigade, 1st BTN, Chungking (ST) Squad, SM
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
- Wil
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At least Sonikku13 keeps it interesting without being so abrasive to everyone. You don't even argue against a point directly Satya. You either insult someone, pull an ad hominem on them as well (or a red herring), or just completely ignore them (the preference by everyone at this point). I don't see where you think you have the right to argue against someone for having used logical fallacies (which is a logical fallacy in and of itself when used in the middle of an argument) when you use them all the time.
It is very disappointing not only because you're such a huge dick to everyone, especially because it seems like you have the knowledge and argumentative skills to advance a conversation WITHOUT acting like that, but nobody here seems to even care that you're a huge dick. No wonder so many people keep leaving. Do the rules not apply to Satya? What the f*** is wrong with you people.
Don't one of you pussies who jump in only to say to get back on topic tell me to get back on topic either, because this is in Milagre and not an on-topic board.
It is very disappointing not only because you're such a huge dick to everyone, especially because it seems like you have the knowledge and argumentative skills to advance a conversation WITHOUT acting like that, but nobody here seems to even care that you're a huge dick. No wonder so many people keep leaving. Do the rules not apply to Satya? What the f*** is wrong with you people.
Don't one of you pussies who jump in only to say to get back on topic tell me to get back on topic either, because this is in Milagre and not an on-topic board.
- Satya
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Epic. Fail.At least Sonikku13 keeps it interesting without being so abrasive to everyone. You don't even argue against a point directly Satya. You either insult someone, pull an ad hominem on them as well (or a red herring), or just completely ignore them (the preference by everyone at this point). I don't see where you think you have the right to argue against someone for having used logical fallacies (which is a logical fallacy in and of itself when used in the middle of an argument) when you use them all the time.
It is very disappointing not only because you're such a huge dick to everyone, especially because it seems like you have the knowledge and argumentative skills to advance a conversation WITHOUT acting like that, but nobody here seems to even care that you're a huge dick. No wonder so many people keep leaving. Do the rules not apply to Satya? What the f*** is wrong with you people.
Don't one of you pussies who jump in only to say to get back on topic tell me to get back on topic either, because this is in Milagre and not an on-topic board.
"nobody here seems to even care that you're a huge dick"
Except the two of you, of course. xD
I can just see your angry little expression, all red-faced and apoplectic, pounding out this ham-fisted retort to an internet argument. Especially considering that you're the one on the "oil spills are no big deal" side of said argument. Just... epic.
I lol'd.
Last edited by Satya on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Luet
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Wil, while I know you are trying not to sink to the same level as Satya, I think you would be more successful in this if you could avoid cursing and using terms such as "dick" and "pussy" in your posts.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa
- daPyr0x
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Wil, you're feeding the beast man. Think about it like trying to argue against the guy who wrote the f****** booming article. He's abrasive 'cause he's right and he's pissed off at what's going on. Have you actually tried throwing some valid arguments out there to counter what he's saying? Or are you more content with trying to tell him who to be. Of course Satya's a dick. I am, too. And so are you and you know it. Deal with it.
True story, this s*** lasts a long f****** time. Aren't you pissed off? I know I am. This is my planet, too. I don't want to have to schedule places I want to go around the locations that haven't had their beaches doused in the stuff.True story. In history, s*** happens. But we also work around, recover, and overcome these things that happens. I never said oil spills weren't bad. What I said was that, in time, the impact of this oil spill will be largely forgotten and overcome. Hopefully in this process we will learn from our mistakes and be more diligent in the enforcement of the safety and backup systems that were neglected that caused this.
Yeah, really, hopefully you will learn something. Hopefully one day your government will figure out that "for the good of the people" is above that of "for the good of the company." That's all this is; every single step that caused this disaster has been driven by the push for money. Hopefully one day they'll learn from both depressions to stop blowing economic bubbles. Time after time concessions in the US government (I'm singling out the US here, but am not suggesting they are alone) are made to be "better for the economy," yet jeopardize the very people they swear to protect. Your regulations, (or lack thereof in this case) have been abused by lobbyists so the richest corporations can make the most money (and can thus donate the most in taxes), and are generally laughable considering the knowledge and technology we have today. Why do you think you're all so fat? Waaaaaait a minute, did I just infer that I'm blaming the US for the oil spill? Well, no. Not entirely. But I am saying that we knew it'd be a bad idea all along. Who the f*** are we, the small country of Canada with little experience deep water drilling, to know that drilling a deep water well without a relief well possible within a reasonable amount of time is a potentially dangerous idea to our countryside? You can't tell me that the powers that be in the US didn't know better, too. But it sure is cheaper to do it without a relief well...
[edit] I'm sure this'll make for a real sexy tan line...
Last edited by daPyr0x on Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- Janus%TheDoorman
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Just what does it take for BP to get their license to drill pulled? I mean, more than 100 times the safety violations of the other guys in the time BP swore up and down it was focusing on safety after the last time they screwed up?
Does it bother anyone else that "BP Oil Spill" needs a disambiguation page on Wikipedia?
Even if it isn't time to completely reevaluate our approach to offshore drilling, can we please at least cull the worst of the herd?
Does it bother anyone else that "BP Oil Spill" needs a disambiguation page on Wikipedia?
Even if it isn't time to completely reevaluate our approach to offshore drilling, can we please at least cull the worst of the herd?
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
-Alan Watts
-Alan Watts
- Satya
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Scientists Confirm Underwater Oil Plume
Give the image makers at BP credit for knowing how to stick to a story. If you had (a) been spilling oil into the Gulf of Mexico at a rate of up to 25,000 bbls. per day since April 20, and (b) been spraying dispersants on it to keep much of it from floating to the surface, you'd find it hard to say "who me?" if scientists began finding huge plumes of oil drifting in underwater currents.
But that's been BP's position. Not only has the oil giant not been willing to take the blame for the toxic clouds below the waves, it's denied they even exist. Today, however, scientists from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) announced that they had found the smoking gun that most everyone else believed was there in the first place.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... z0qJCBy7nH
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