National ID with Biometric Data

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Satya
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National ID with Biometric Data

Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 8:02 am

Civil liberties advocates decried a Democratic proposal that would require all workers in the United States to carry an ID card with biometric identifiers.

Get ready, America. DO YOU HAVE YOUR PAPERS, CITIZEN?! All American workers will soon (whether with this proposal or one's coming down the pipe) to have a National ID, complete with Biometric data (and probably RFID). You will not be able to work without one. You probably won't be able to do much of anything without it, really. If you've ever scoffed at the thought of a "mark of the Beast", whether in an apocalyptic sense or simply metaphorical, it's gut-check time. Are you prepared to fully submit to the will of the oligarchy?
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Tue May 04, 2010 8:20 am

We show our "papers" all the time. When you apply for a job, when you get on a plane, when you're stopped by the police. Only the papers we show aren't very secure.

One of the reasons we have such a huge illegal immigration problem is that it's so terribly easy to get a job with a fake ID. Issue secure IDs to everyone, fake IDs will be harder to get. The harder it is to get a fake IDs, the harder it is for illegal immigrants to get a job. Fewer job prospects means fewer illegal immigrants.

So, if we're going to be required to carry ID anyway, why not make sure it's secure? I'm still not convinced biometric data is the way to go, but we've got to do something.
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Postby buckshot » Tue May 04, 2010 10:04 am

I for one don't mind having my ID checked all the time , but I don't want to sport a bar code on my forehead ! Before long we will have to mark our beasts with an ID too . :?

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Postby Luet » Tue May 04, 2010 12:30 pm

The biometric identifiers listed in the article are fingerprints. Are they considering something else? As far as I've read, there is nothing that bothers me. Sign me up.
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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 1:47 pm

"Such as" fingerprints is what it says. I believe retinal data is one of the other possibilities.
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Postby Luet » Tue May 04, 2010 1:52 pm

Still sounds fine to me. I guess I'm just not paranoid like that.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Tue May 04, 2010 1:53 pm

Given that they need a relatively low-cost scanning device for employers to use, I wouldn't put my money on anything except fingerprints. Which is one of the reasons I still have some reservations about using biometric data, as the technology isn't quite there, yet, to prevent fingerprint spoofing.
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 04, 2010 2:26 pm

No offense to Americans, and it obviously doesn't apply to all of the ones here, but I think that in general you guys are too paranoid about "The Man" and "Big Brother".
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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 3:02 pm

That's kind of ironic given your avatar.

And, in general, there IS no "too" paranoid about Big Brother. Just keep giving those inches, bro. Just keep handing over bits and pieces of your freedoms. The day will come when you'll be asked to hand over more, you'll look down and your hands will be empty of liberty. They'll be nothing more to give, and nothing left but chains.
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Postby starlooker » Tue May 04, 2010 3:34 pm

Works for me.

Frankly, in a country where the highest news ratings go to a television station devoted to propaganda against the party in power, I'm a little disinclined to worry about opression of fundamental liberties via fingerprinting. Or retina scans, for that matter.
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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 3:54 pm

I'm a little disinclined to worry about opression of fundamental liberties
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Oh yeah, I hear Iran wants to nuke the s*** out of Israel.. But since Fox News is teh uber arch-neo-con, I'm a little disinclined to worry about annihilation of Jews by a holocaust-denying anti-Semitic warmongering psychopath with nuclear ambitions. (No, the two topics aren't related. But neither is "oppression of fundamental liberties" and which news broadcasts garner more zombified saps than others. WTF. Seriously.)

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Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 04, 2010 4:35 pm

Well that was a totally non-obnoxious way to say that you don't get her point.
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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 4:44 pm

As opposed to you not making a point at all.
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 04, 2010 4:49 pm

I'm sorry. I'll try to include some overused internet memes next time to make it look like I've made a point.
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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 4:53 pm

Yeah, your "Americans worry too much about Big Brother" was a real stroke of genius. Or just a stroke - I can't tell with you.
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 04, 2010 5:04 pm

At least I didn't take the Lord's Facepalm in vain. Shame on you.
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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 5:16 pm

Ah, the old "at least I didn't (blank)" argument. Like the old "I may be (blank 1), but you're (blank 2)!"
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Postby CezeN » Tue May 04, 2010 5:52 pm

I think you guys have gotten a little offtopic.

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Postby Jebus » Tue May 04, 2010 5:59 pm

Satya, out of curiosity, what exactly about identity cards do you oppose? I mean, your initial post said some scary stuff. You implied this was some kind of move to a police state, and you talked about the mark of the beast, you know, it's all great fear-mongering stuff, but you're not offering a substantial opposition to this.

I mean, quite clearly, there are levels of paranoia about "Big Brother" that are unnecessary. Your government knows lots of details about you already, and I'm sure you have several pieces of photo ID, some of which perhaps you have used to prove your citizenship, yet you haven't yet escaped into the woods to establish your own self-sufficient colony of tin foil clothes wearers.

Is it purely the biometric identifiers that bother you? Is that much different from photo identification, except perhaps that it's more difficult to falsify?

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Postby Satya » Tue May 04, 2010 6:08 pm

I have one piece of photo identification - state, not federal; though my government certainly does know a great deal about me. How much, and what that information is however, isn't known. As it is, I don't have to "prove" my citizenship. And yes, biometrics certainly does make the scenario that much 'scarier.' As does the inevitable inclusion of RFID systems into such a national ID.
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Postby Jebus » Tue May 04, 2010 6:14 pm

Presumably were it required, though, you wouldn't have a problem with getting a passport and using it to prove that you are an American when taking international flights and such?

Are biometric identifiers not an inevitable form of identification as the technology becomes advanced enough though?

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Postby Luet » Tue May 04, 2010 6:34 pm

No offense to Americans, and it obviously doesn't apply to all of the ones here, but I think that in general you guys are too paranoid about "The Man" and "Big Brother".
I wholeheartedly agree, although so far in this thread that only applies to Satya.

Presumably were it required, though, you wouldn't have a problem with getting a passport and using it to prove that you are an American when taking international flights and such?
That IS a current requirement to take an international flight.
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Postby starlooker » Tue May 04, 2010 6:36 pm

No, really, you didn't get my point. Or, if you did, you were too busy wanting to put up pretty little pictures to make a response to it.

Anyhow, here's the thing. Worry about Iran. Go for it. Worry about foreign policy, Israel, whatever. Fine. Hate the government or any particular elected official you disagree with, that's your right. Which is my point. No one has yet actually taken any steps that I can see towards abridging that right.

You were making all kinds of extremist statements about the mark of the beast and handing over liberties one by one until we have no liberties at all and it's our fault because we let ourselves get fingerprinted for the IDs because somehow that's so much worse than drivers licenses/social security cards/birth certificates/credit cards. And I really fail to see where there's any movement towards some kind of police state based on anything you've said. When I look around the country, I see plenty of people publicly and loudly exercising their freedom of speech, religion, dissention, assembly, and right to bear arms. Lord knows, there is still freedom of the press. And, while people take issue with the tone of the argument or the arguments themselves, I haven't really heard anybody (at least, anybody that is taken seriously) question these fundamental rights.

So, I'm stupid, Satya, I guess. Bear with me and draw it out for me. How does some article regarding use of fingerprints for ID cards significantly threaten our fundamental liberties? So that all we will have left are chains? How is this different from having to give my employer a copy of my license and my social security number and having them do a background check? Also, pretty well any time I've applied for a job, I've been asked if I'm a citizen and if I have the right to work in the country. And I presume part of the purpose of any background check is to prove that.

There may be reasons to panic. But ID cards, in and of themselves, are not one of those reasons. By going all, "Mark of the Beast! Big Brother! No such thing as too paranoid! You will have to fully submit to the will of the oligarchy!" you invite a lot of skepticism.

In general, I'm mostly kind of "meh" on the subject.
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Postby Jebus » Tue May 04, 2010 6:37 pm


Presumably were it required, though, you wouldn't have a problem with getting a passport and using it to prove that you are an American when taking international flights and such?
That IS a current requirement to take an international flight.
Yea I know, I meant if it were required for a specific situation for Satya.

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Postby jotabe » Wed May 05, 2010 2:22 am

We have IDs with pic, and fingerprinting procedure when you get your ID card (fingerprint used to go in the ID, now it's just in the database). And honestly, the "big brother" is still in the dark about me: i still have to keep track of the things i do, keep documentation, keep my certificates... because for any administrative procedure, i will need said papers. Because, despite they have them, apparently they don't bother looking them up.

This is something i like: public administration laziness protects your freedom. Big Brother is impossible in the real world, because such degree of power without prospect of personal profit breeds corruption and/or laziness, bringing about its own collapse.

On the other hand, private companies trade and share my data, data that i indistinctively told them not to share. They know how many people i live with, our relationship, our tastes, our consumption habits. They know if i have a dsl line or not, the bandwidth and with which company.
What do you know, this is a lot scarier.
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Postby Satya » Wed May 05, 2010 4:55 am

I should have figured, given this crowd. Shortsighted and slavish. Bunch of servile, tepid... Forget it.

"I see plenty of people publicly and loudly exercising their freedom of speech, religion, dissention, assembly, and right to bear arms."

I see plenty of censorship, I see this curbing freedom of religion and speech, I see "protest zones", I see curbing of my right to bear arms every day, etc etc. Just because the foundations haven't been washed away completely yet doesn't mean the termites haven't eaten through the beams.

"inevitable..." Yeah. A cashless society is probably inevitable too. No sense fighting it. None at all.

"I wholeheartedly agree (about Americans being too paranoid about Big Brother)" - Apparently, you only ever meet the quarter of Americans who actually give enough of a s*** to be paranoid. The rest are willingly lying down for it. Well, I guess when there's a chip in every human and a camera every ten feet, we'll see.
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Postby daPyr0x » Wed May 05, 2010 5:02 am

Between the immigration law in Arizona and these national ID cards all I can think of is going out for a nice bike ride or stroll along the beach only to be hauled off to jail for not carrying my wallet (containing said ID card). That's why this program is scary. I don't need a hitman-esque barcode on the back of my neck, nor do I need an ID card to walk the streets of my country.

Heh, maybe that's why my country isn't the US...

Oh and hey, you know what else is a great idea? Let's put all your personal information onto this handy thing called an RFID chip. Something that can have it's data skimmed off completely wirelessly without even leaving your pocket!! What a great idea!!! YAY GUYS!!! f***. At least if someone wants my credit card it's gotta come out of my pocket; not anymore!! Yes, there are proof-of-concept RFID scanners that are portable enough to be hidden in someone's pocket and powerful enough to get through the current level of RFID security standards.

I recognize a more secure identification setup is required in the US if you're ever going to curb the immigration issues. But requiring every citizen to carry a card that contains all their personal information and can be easily read by someone malicious without so much as reaching into your pocket? That doesn't look to me like the best of ideas.
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Postby jotabe » Wed May 05, 2010 5:16 am

this crowd. Shortsighted and slavish. Bunch of servile, tepid...
I always hear this from the pseudo-libertarian media pundits (probably liberal pundits use the same language, i just don't read/listen to them). If you don't agree with them is because you are part of the herdable people, bovine, incapable of thought or foresight. Useful idiots.
It's a totalitarian propaganda tactic, you know. To remove human qualities from the political adversary, so they can be attacked without moral scruples.

I can understand the pundits saying so, to make their audience feel good about themselves, to they keep them loyal. Why do you use them, though? What do you have to gain from it? (unless your actions are truly altruistic here.)
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Postby Yebra » Wed May 05, 2010 5:57 am

It just seems unlikely to me that any system working with hundreds of millions of people is going to impenetrable to people who want to get non-entitled people on the system. Then you got issues like differences in calibration of scanners or the training of operators, procedures for correcting wrong information or replacing lost cards - that's a really massive infrastructure with lots of points of failure and the consequences are people's jobs. The experience of this sort of thing in the UK is that government IT systems tend to be enormously expensive, break and leak personal information all over the place, it seems hard to imagine that this is the best or cheapest solution.

What's the situation in the US? Do you only need one form of ID to get jobs?
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Postby Jebus » Wed May 05, 2010 6:59 am

I should have figured, given this crowd. Shortsighted and slavish. Bunch of servile, tepid... Forget it.

"I see plenty of people publicly and loudly exercising their freedom of speech, religion, dissention, assembly, and right to bear arms."

I see plenty of censorship, I see this curbing freedom of religion and speech, I see "protest zones", I see curbing of my right to bear arms every day, etc etc. Just because the foundations haven't been washed away completely yet doesn't mean the termites haven't eaten through the beams.

"inevitable..." Yeah. A cashless society is probably inevitable too. No sense fighting it. None at all.

"I wholeheartedly agree (about Americans being too paranoid about Big Brother)" - Apparently, you only ever meet the quarter of Americans who actually give enough of a s*** to be paranoid. The rest are willingly lying down for it. Well, I guess when there's a chip in every human and a camera every ten feet, we'll see.
Congratulations, you've continued to spout paranoid extremism without offering a single concrete rebuttal to anything that's been said. You have been moved from "paranoid, but possibly some interesting points to make" to "crazy person". Good day.

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Postby Luet » Wed May 05, 2010 7:55 am

What's the situation in the US? Do you only need one form of ID to get jobs?
It depends on the level of job. Sometimes only a driver's license is needed (which is the photo id), sometimes a social security card is also needed. I just got a temporary job with the 2010 US Census and I had to be fingerprinted, in addition to showing those two forms of id.
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Postby powerfulcheese04 » Wed May 05, 2010 10:10 am

What's the situation in the US? Do you only need one form of ID to get jobs?
It depends on the level of job. Sometimes only a driver's license is needed (which is the photo id), sometimes a social security card is also needed. I just got a temporary job with the 2010 US Census and I had to be fingerprinted, in addition to showing those two forms of id.
Every job I've ever had requires some form of "proof of eligibility to work in the US." There's a whole list of documents that qualify alone, or in combination.

Passport works alone. Driver's license requires some form of validation (like birth certificate.)
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Postby daPyr0x » Wed May 05, 2010 10:21 am

Speaking of civil liberties, isn't it pretty much required to submit to drug testing in order to get any sort of employment in the US? Not to mention many companies having a random testing programs.

Oh yeah...
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Postby Luet » Wed May 05, 2010 11:53 am

I've never been tested for drugs in any job I've had, which granted is only a handful (I keep jobs for a long time), but they have included state and federal jobs. I have been fingerprinted, as previously mentioned, and tested for tuberculosis as a requirement of employment.
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Postby Satya » Wed May 05, 2010 4:28 pm

Rubes.
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