Question for Americans

[Caspian]

This may sound sarcastic, but I promise it's a serious question.

What's the deal with the American policy on alcohol as compared with the American policy on guns? Why does it make sense that you can buy a gun at 18 (and in many states possess a gun at 16 or younger) buy can't buy a beer until you're 21?

Is there anyone who thinks this is a good policy and can explain to me why?

[eriador]

I ask myself the same question all the time...

[mr_thebrain]

you're absolutely right. let's sell them guns and alcohol when they're 18. better yet, when they're 16. that way they can be all angsty and drunk when they kill people.

anyway, the gun sales thing is pretty much due to the NRA, otherwise, by now that age would be higher. Not to mention that some of the guns that are available wouldn't be available anymore.

the drinking thing.... hell sometimes i think 21 is too early for some people to start drinking.

I suppose it doesn't matter a whole lot though. even if the age to own/purchase a gun was 25, kids would still be able to get their hands on guns. from friends, parents, illegal gun trade.... what have you. and they would still go into schools and shoot people.

no it's not a good policy.

there's also the school of thought that a person can join the military at 18, shoot guns and bomb countries, but not be able to buy a beer. yeah, we have policies that need to change, but the policies arent' the only things needin' change.

[Oliver Dale]

Yes, it's a good policy. And there is a very specific reason for it.

In this country, you are generally considered an adult at age 18. However, there are physiological reasons why people should not start drinking until 21.

To quote the CDC: "Yes, studies have shown that alcohol use by youth and young adults increases the risk of both fatal and nonfatal injuries (7,8,9). Research has also shown that youth who use alcohol before age 15 are four times more likely to become alcohol dependent than adults who begin drinking at age 21 (10). Other consequences of youth alcohol use include increased risky sexual behaviors, poor school performance, and increased risk of suicide and homicide (11,12)."

#7 Hingson RW, Heeren T, Jamanka A, Howland J. Age of onset and unintentional injury involvement after drinking. JAMA 2000; 284(12): 1527–1533.
#8 Hingson RW, Heeren T, Winter M, Wechsler H. Magnitude of alcohol-related mortality and morbidity among U.S. college students ages 18–24: Changes from 1998 to 2001. Annu Rev Public Health, 2005; 26:259–79.
#9 Levy DT, Mallonee S, Miller TR, Smith GS, Spicer RS, Romano EO, Fisher DA. Alcohol involvement in burn, submersion, spinal cord, and brain injuries. Medical Science Monitor 2004; 10(1):CR17–24.
#10 Grant GF and Dawson DA. Age at onset of alcohol use and its association with DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse and Dependence. Journal of Substance Abuse, 1997;(9):103–110.
#11 Grunbaum JA, Kann L, Kinchen S, Ross J, Hawkins J, Lowry R, et al. Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance—United States, 2003. MMWR, 53(No. SS-2):1–96.
#12 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Alcohol-Related Disease Impact (ARDI) software. Released September 2004. Accessed February 28, 2006.

[Jayelle]

When can you buy cigarettes in the states?

[Oliver Dale]

Each state has the power to regulate it; however, I believe it's 18 everywhere. (Anyone know of anything different?)

[Virlomi]

My only issue with that, Ollie, is that no one is talking about legalized drinking for highschool students. I think it's strange that I am currently considered capable enough to get married without my parents' consent, have on abortion without my parents' consent, win the lottery, buy a gun, vote in the ruler of the free world, buy cigarettes, gamble my life away, and die for my country but not have a glass of wine.

[mr_thebrain]

see there's the problem. you want wine. you should want beer and or hard liquer.

[eriador]

No, ^--that--^ is the problem.

In Europe, where the drinking age is much lower (16, 18, sometimes lower), drinking is seen as a social activity, where somebody would have a glass of wine with dinner with friend or family. In the US, drinking has become something which is self contained, you drink to get drunk.

If it weren't for this attitude that Americans have it would be more acceptable to lower the drinking age.

[zeroguy]

Each state has the power to regulate it; however, I believe it's 18 everywhere. (Anyone know of anything different?)

I thought likewise with drinking. Technically it's a state decision, but they get Federal pressure to make the ages 18 and 21. Otherwise, they lose highway funding.

Edit: And doesn't Ollie's original argument take as a given that outlawing it significantly reduces the number of troublesome underage drinking cases? Maybe it's just because I'm at the University of Illinois, but I don't really see that.

[mr_thebrain]

In the US, drinking has become something which is self contained, you drink to get drunk.

i disagree on the basis that that is a generalization. not everyone here drinks to get drunk. not any more than in any other country. i drink beer, but i don't drink beer to get drunk, i drink microbrews and savor the taste. something i got from my dad, and his buddies. we drink beer like most people drink wine.

when i drink a hard liquer most of the time i'm not drinking it to get drunk.

it is a very rare occasion that i go out looking to get drunk.

our bars here may be different, but they are no less social than in other countries.

[Oliver Dale]

Each state has the power to regulate it; however, I believe it's 18 everywhere. (Anyone know of anything different?)

I thought likewise with drinking. Technically it's a state decision, but they get Federal pressure to make the ages 18 and 21. Otherwise, they lose highway funding.

Edit: And doesn't Ollie's original argument take as a given that outlawing it significantly reduces the number of troublesome underage drinking cases? Maybe it's just because I'm at the University of Illinois, but I don't really see that.

You can talk to me directly, if you want No need to refer to me in the third person.

But yes it does. That's because laws have to assume that people will follow them, with established provisions for when they don't. If you want to simply get rid of all the laws that people are capable of breaking, you don't leave a lot behind.

[Jayelle]

You can talk to me directly, if you want No need to refer to me in the third person.

It's actually a requirement with modgods. Don't look directly at them.

[zeroguy]

Well, maybe I just like saying the name Ollie. I hope I have not offended Him, or make it seem like He is less approachable.

But yes it does. That's because laws have to assume that people will follow them, with established provisions for when they don't. If you want to simply get rid of all the laws that people are capable of breaking, you don't leave a lot behind.

I just don't see what it's currently preventing. But it seems like that other thread has already been discussing that.

[eriador]

In the US, drinking has become something which is self contained, you drink to get drunk.

i disagree on the basis that that is a generalization. not everyone here drinks to get drunk. not any more than in any other country. i drink beer, but i don't drink beer to get drunk, i drink microbrews and savor the taste. something i got from my dad, and his buddies. we drink beer like most people drink wine.

when i drink a hard liquer most of the time i'm not drinking it to get drunk.

it is a very rare occasion that i go out looking to get drunk.

our bars here may be different, but they are no less social than in other countries.

Yes, of course it's a generalization, and I'm sorry if I offended anybody. However, the image of drinking in this country in popular culture (which has a huge amount of influence over people under 21) is an image of binge drinking. The idea of social drinking, though many people do drink that way has been hidden by this massive front. If popular culture didn't emphasize drinkng to get drunk, then lowering the drinking age would be a better idea.

As a teen I can personally attest to this empahsis conveyed by the media. Even though I have many adult role models around me who showcase responsible drinking, I'm still heavily influenced by the idea of drinking to get drunk that is presented to me in other ways.

[mr_thebrain]

do you get this image of the U.S. due to the abundance of commercials and warnings about drunk driving?

when i think of binge drinking and drinking to get drunk i think of high school and college age kids going to bars. in which case, if anything the drinking age should be raised.

[eriador]

I'm saying that I (personally) get a certain picture of drinking. If that image were not present it might be okay to lower the drinking age. As it is now, I agree with you that if we change it, it should be increased.

And no, I get it from the over-abundance of commercials for alcohol and the popular image that I get from just about everywhere that people drink to get drunk. Yes, people do emphasize responsible drinking, but cynical me only looks at the negative side (for example, when I see an ad for, say, Bud Lite and at the end it says "drink responsibly" I think "that's the last thing they want us to do").

Overall, I see drinking in America as drinking to get drunk. However inaccurate that is, that's what I see.

[Virlomi]

If anything I think that the amount of underage binge drinking in the States is because, or at least encouraged by the legal age being so high. When alcohol is introduced as a part of life to someone at a younger age without mystery or glamour it takes away the fascination with the forbiddeness of it and the desire to abuse it. Increasing the legal age further isn't going to do a thing for teenage drinking. It's only going to further perpetuate the problem.

I guess to answer your question, Caspian, I honestly don't understand it myself. And I've got to admit, I loved vacationing in Quebec this summer and being able to go to a bar with my family.

[eriador]

Ditto Virlomi.

[Yebra]

I'm just about willing to believe there's some benefit to a 21 drinking limit, although just on principle I think that once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. Private institutions can impose stricter rules but the state shouldn't.

I doubt that scientific study was available when the law was made, so why 21? When was the voting age reduced? Just speculating, but if that occurred during prohibition then that might explain why the two separated. Or I may be far off the mark.

[eriador]

I'm guessing here, but I think that during prohibition there was no drinking age, because the production, transport, marketing, etc. of alcohol was illegal.

BTW, what do you mean by "once you're a citizen, you're a citizen,"? You lost me there.

[peterlocke123]

Well, it's not like some people don't abide by the alcohol law. I mean, you have parties nearly every weekend so it doesn't really effect some people.

But on a more serious note, I think that if anything, you shouldn't be able to buy a gun until you are 21, and possess a gun until you are 18. Guns aren't fun little toys 16 year-olds can just run around and play with...

[eriador]

And cars are....

It's a slippery slope.

[Yebra]

I'm guessing here, but I think that during prohibition there was no drinking age, because the production, transport, marketing, etc. of alcohol was illegal.

BTW, what do you mean by "once you're a citizen, you're a citizen,"? You lost me there.

That's what I meant, just not explained very well. If there was no drinking age during prohibition then it wouldn't have been reduced when the voting age was (if it was during that time) and then after prohibition you get the old 21 coming back.

What I meant by the "once you're a citizen, you're a citizen" should be more 'full citizen' i.e. with full adult rights, so once you can vote, you should be able to drink.

[Mahatma]

I find it a bit silly that when I want to have a glass of wine and I do, I'm breaking the law. I'm not irresponsible, and alcohol doesn't make me do crazy things because I'll only have a glass at a time. I don't drink and then do physical activity that could cause injury. I didn't drink before age 15. I don't get drunk, and I certainly don't have a drinking problem that could lead to social/emotional problems. None of the arguments Ollie (can I call you that? I'm just following... lol) quotes apply to me, but it's still illegal for me to drink that glass of wine. So yeah, I think it's rather silly.

And another thing... a lot of people assume that because I'm a college student, I party and get drunk, which is very unfair. I don't like being represented by 18-20 year old alcoholics and drunk drivers, and I certainly don't like answering to their irresponsibility. So I will have a glass of wine if I feel like it -- most likely with my mom at that -- and it will be illegal, but I'll be damned if those idiots are going to ruin it for me, because I won't be doing anything wrong.

[anonshadow]

I'm just about willing to believe there's some benefit to a 21 drinking limit, although just on principle I think that once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. Private institutions can impose stricter rules but the state shouldn't.

I doubt that scientific study was available when the law was made, so why 21? When was the voting age reduced? Just speculating, but if that occurred during prohibition then that might explain why the two separated. Or I may be far off the mark.

The voting age was reduced to 18 in 1971, by way of the 26th Amendment. The drinking age was made 21 in 1984, although it is worth noting that many states have laws that made exceptions when one is using the alcohol for religious purposes, in one's own home, under the supervision of family members, etc. The only constant is that one cannot buy alcohol until one is 21.

[eriador]

Yebra, thanks for the clarification.

Mahatma, I think you're making an excellent point. In my earlier post I was pointing out the pervasiveness of the stereotype you mentioned and I hope I didn't offend anybody.


Overall, what I'm seeing is that the drinking age law is just like any other law, right in some ways and wrong in others. The lawmakers who made the voting age 18 didn't worry about contradictions and the people who set the 21 year limit were also thinking about only one issue.

What can I say, government is complicated.

[peterlocke123]

Ok, I'm beginning to agree with other people that it's the fact that there is a limit that causes people to think more of drinking and causes all the damage. However, I'm still sticking by my other opinion. I think that it's only part of the problem that there is a law preventing the drinking and buying of the alcohol.
It may just be me, but I seem to think of most American teens as extremely irresponsible. It may be the teen's personality that makes them irresponsible, but I think it is also, partially, the parent's lack of morals in upbringing them.

[Slim]

When can you buy cigarettes in the states?

Each state has the power to regulate it; however, I believe it's 18 everywhere. (Anyone know of anything different?)

In Utah, it's 19.

[eriador]

It may just be me, but I seem to think of most American teens as extremely irresponsible. It may be the teen's personality that makes them irresponsible, but I think it is also, partially, the parent's lack of morals in upbringing them.

Or, it could be a perception you have based on media experiences that have pervaded your consciousness for your entire life, in other words, you might have a mis-informed view of American teens, which is what Mahatma was trying to point out.

[peterlocke123]

Or my view of teens at OES is tweaking my overall steriotypical teen...

[Eddie Pinz]

No, ^--that--^ is the problem.

In Europe, where the drinking age is much lower (16, 18, sometimes lower), drinking is seen as a social activity, where somebody would have a glass of wine with dinner with friend or family. In the US, drinking has become something which is self contained, you drink to get drunk.

If it weren't for this attitude that Americans have it would be more acceptable to lower the drinking age.

Have you ever been to Europe?

[big beans]

Just to add, to legally purchace a shotgun or rifle you must be 18 in the United States. The age for leagally owning a pistol is 21, with the requirements for concealed carry differing widely from state to state.

Also, I don't think that the "Oh lets go ahead and give guns to angsty teenagers" argument is very valid here. If someone wants to commit a violent crime, or even hurt his/herself, restricting their access to firearms won't do much to prevent them. They will simply find other means such as a knife, or any other household item that they have easy access to, to commit the crime with.

Restricting firearms on the basis of an erroneous argument only succeeds in punishing those who wish to own and responisbly use their firearms for hunting, target or competitive shooting, or home defense purposes.

[AnthonyByakko]

"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters."

- Sammy the Bull

[Jebus]

No, ^--that--^ is the problem.

In Europe, where the drinking age is much lower (16, 18, sometimes lower), drinking is seen as a social activity, where somebody would have a glass of wine with dinner with friend or family. In the US, drinking has become something which is self contained, you drink to get drunk.

If it weren't for this attitude that Americans have it would be more acceptable to lower the drinking age.

I'll thank you very much not to dump us all in the same category as the French. Quite a few of us Europeans do, in fact, just drink to get drunk.