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Postby jotabe » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:37 pm

ok think about it this way:
You have 1/n, where n is a "natural number" (integer positive numbers).
for n=1, 1/n = 1/1 = 1
for n=0.5, 1/n = 1/0.5 = 2
for n=0.1, 1/n = 10
for n=0.01, 1/n = 100
for n=0.000001, 1/n = 1,000,000

As you can see, simply making n very small, you can make 1/n arbitrarily large (i.e. as large as you want). The smaller you make n, and you can get like very small, the bigger 1/n will be.

This previous sentence can be reworded mathematically as: "The limit of 1/n when n tends to zero is infinity."

Writing 1/0 = infinity is an aberration in the eyes of a mathematician. A mathematician would have you write:
lim n->0 (1/n) = infinity
This is simply because infinity is not an actual number, it's a limit. But hey, we are not mathematicians here.

Oooops
(a-b)*(a+b)/(a-b) isn't infinity :oops:
It's actually an indetermination, sorry for the oversight. It's 0/0, which is an indetermination as much as infinity/infinity is. So you arrive at the indetermination one step earlier than i said :D
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Postby CezeN » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:45 pm

I understand everything up to the "Ooops", but that's mostly because I still don't really understand what an indetermination is.

Also, I remember my teacher said 0^0 = 1.
How exactly is that so?
I mean, I know anything to the zero power is 1.
But, I can't conceptualize putting nothing to the nothing power, and turning out getting something. It just doesn't make any bit of sense, at all.
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Postby CezeN » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:59 pm

Also, I can't figure out this problem on my homework, so I'm wondering if one of you can show me how to do it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Find limit f(x + h) - f(x) / h

for f(x) = 1/ (x-1)

I mean, I know you plug in it in for x.

So, I got to something like
f(1/(x-1) + h) - f(1/(x-1))

At this point, I multiplied h/1 by x-1 to get a common denominator. Ended up with
1+hx-h / x-1

And then, subtracted 1/(x-1) from that and ended with
[hx-h / x-1] / h

And then, I tried something here that yielded the wrong answer. (multiplied top and bottom by x-1) Soooo, I figure I must have done something wrong.

The right answer is supposed to be
-1 / (x-1)^2
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Postby jotabe » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:35 am

An indetermination is just what the word says. There isn't a known value because we haven't done the things properly: 0/0 can take any value, but we must go back and calculate it as a limit, to know which value it actually is.

I am afraid your teacher had an "oops" moment too, there: 0^0 is indeterminate, too. In any case, 0^0=1 is a perfectly good approximation, as it works for all cases where you can find it (when you calculate it as a limit). But you are very correct saying that you don't have a mental image of what 0^0 means; it isn't mathematically well-defined.

Why are these forms indeterminate? One could say "shouldn't 0/0 always yield the same result?". The answer lies in how "fast" the upper part and the lower part of the fraction go to zero.
Think of the fraction x²/x. If you want to see the value of this fraction for x=0, you will have 0/0 (yes, i know you can simplify the x, just bear with me for a moment). Now, imagine that instead of making x=0, you make x=very small, but non zero.
x=0.1 -> x²=0.01
x=0.01 -> x²=0.0001
x=0.001 -> x²=0.000001
You can see that x² becomes smaller much faster than x, if you make x be very very small. So, for very very small values of x, x² is almost zero in comparison to x. Hence, at the limit of x tending to zero:
x²/x ≈ 0/x = 0
So, in this case, 0/0=0

This is precisely the same result as if we simplify x²/x = x

Now, let's turn it upside down, and consider x/(x²).
Doing the same process, x² goes to zero much faster than x. So, at teh limit of x tending to zero:
x/x² ≈ x/0 = ∞
So, this other 0/0=∞.

This is how 0/0 is indeterminate: you need more information to know its actual value.

As for your homework, we need to know what limit are you considering: it's x or h? do they tend to zero, to infinity, or to any other finite value?
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Postby CezeN » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:37 pm

What I posted was all the information it gave.
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Postby human. » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:48 pm

Also, I can't figure out this problem on my homework, so I'm wondering if one of you can show me how to do it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Find limit f(x + h) - f(x) / h

for f(x) = 1/ (x-1)

I mean, I know you plug in it in for x.

So, I got to something like
f(1/(x-1) + h) - f(1/(x-1))

At this point, I multiplied h/1 by x-1 to get a common denominator. Ended up with
1+hx-h / x-1

And then, subtracted 1/(x-1) from that and ended with
[hx-h / x-1] / h

And then, I tried something here that yielded the wrong answer. (multiplied top and bottom by x-1) Soooo, I figure I must have done something wrong.

The right answer is supposed to be
-1 / (x-1)^2

Do you know the shortcut? You'll be very happy when you learn it, if you don't. =]

Um, but assuming h is just a variable, if you make it the change in x, then that's in the form of the formal definition of a derivative:

f'(x)=lim as change in x-->0 of (f(x + change in x) - f(x))/change in x

or f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of (f(x +h) - f(x))/h

To solve it, I'd use the two points: (x, f(x)) and (x+h, f(x+h)) (where h is the change in x)

For the first point, you look at your function f(x) = 1/ (x-1).
You know x is just x, and f(x) is just that function. So the first point is (x, 1/(x-1))

The second point is basically what the same point would be as the first one, but for the function f(x+h) instead of just f(x). So the second point will be (x+h,f(x+h)). To find f(x+h), you simply plug (x+h) into your function where x would be. So it would be: 1/((x+h)-1). The second point is then (x+h, 1/((x+h)-1)). Written out, this looks a lot less complicated than when it's typed.

So using these two points, you can fill in part of the function you're taking the limit of. Replacing f(x+h) with 1/((x+h)-1) from above, and f(x) with your initial function:

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of (f(x +h) - f(x))/h
changes to

or f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of (1/((x+h)-1) - 1/ (x-1))/h

If you then simplify this you get:

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of ((x-1)-(x+h-1))/((x+h-1)(x-1)(h))

This goes to:
f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of (x-1-x-h+1)/((x+h-1)(x-1)(h))

You'll notice that on top the x's and the 1's cancel out, leaving you with a negative h on top:

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of -h/((x+h-1)(x-1)(h))

Then you'll notice the h on top and h on bottom cancel:

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of -1/((x+h-1)(x-1))

At this point you plug in 0 (what h is going to in this limit), and solve. You can only plug in zero now because before now if you had plugged in zero for h, it would have given you an undefined value because you divide by h. Now that you've canceled the h term and the only h in it is a part of a term and not a term by itself, you can plug in 0 for h:

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of -1/((x+0-1)(x-1))

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of -1/((x-1)(x-1))

f'(x)=lim as h-->0 of -1/(x-1)^2

Edit: So what you were doing wrong was you were plugging in the function for x, when x is just x and the function is f(x).

Oh, and also, f'(x) is notation for derivative.

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Postby jotabe » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:08 am

neato! :D
Most of my skills calculating limits are very dull.
But will he be allowed to use differential calculus when dealing with limits? i think i remember working on limits before we started calculus, if they do the same, the exercise might be set up so it's solved without them.
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Postby human. » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:17 pm

In my calculus class we also started with limits. But that almost exact problem was what ended limits and began derivatives for us. It was the way we were taught why limits were important in calculus. I mean, you are taking the derivative of the function, but using that limit, you're also taking the limit of the function. They just happen to be the same when you use the formal definition of a derivative.

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Postby CezeN » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:16 pm

Thanks Human!
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Postby Gravity Defier » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:43 pm

I could have sworn we had a different/better suited thread to ask questions in but I don't feel like searching. This is a general series of questions, to anyone they apply to.


People who are living not-in-the-place-you-grew-up/far from wherever you consider "home":

Was it a hard decision, to go wherever you went from wherever you considered home? Why did the option of moving even come up?

Do you ever get homesick and if so, how do you combat that?

Did you know anyone in the place you were moving to?

Was it difficult adjusting to the change?

And any other information you want to add, I wouldn't scoff at. I was being silly (okay, depression-ally motivated) when I said I didn't want to move to Chicago anymore but I can't pretend I'm unconcerned and not at all scared by the idea. I get worried before a visit that it'll have lost its magic, so, let's just acknowledge that I'm simply the worrying type. Hearing stories would be nice.
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Postby mr_thebrain » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:07 pm

well first off, yes you get homesick. but you find things to make your new place home. and it does take a while, but it's very rewarding. as for the rest, i can't say, i'm back where i'm from. so anywhere i've been has been a temporary thing.

and if you do move to chicago, i'm only a 2 hour drive away. and a lot of that can be done by inexpensive train. so if you needed a friendly face (even if it's one you've never seen before and you think is scary :P ) there's one fairly close (it's a relative term, round these parts close is driving a half an hour in any direction to get where you're going.)
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Postby Mitchi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:03 am

I could have sworn we had a different/better suited thread to ask questions in but I don't feel like searching. This is a general series of questions, to anyone they apply to.


People who are living not-in-the-place-you-grew-up/far from wherever you consider "home":

Was it a hard decision, to go wherever you went from wherever you considered home? Why did the option of moving even come up?

Do you ever get homesick and if so, how do you combat that?

Did you know anyone in the place you were moving to?

Was it difficult adjusting to the change?

And any other information you want to add, I wouldn't scoff at. I was being silly (okay, depression-ally motivated) when I said I didn't want to move to Chicago anymore but I can't pretend I'm unconcerned and not at all scared by the idea. I get worried before a visit that it'll have lost its magic, so, let's just acknowledge that I'm simply the worrying type. Hearing stories would be nice.
The first time I moved I had no say in the matter as I was 10 at the time, and it was to another country. I was incredibly lonely and homesick for years.

when I moved back to where I grew up (again, not my choice) I was almost an adult, and was homesick for a long time. I didn't know anyone, so it was like it wasn't my home anymore.

bout 5 years later I moved again, but this time it was my decision. I uprooted from Texas to Cali to be with my military husband, and am actually in the process of moving again. This time I'm not homesick, and forgive me for being sappy but I'm not homesick because he -is- my home.

The only real thing I had to adjust to was that its so much easier to pack and go when you have less stuff holding you back. Furniture is a hassle, and its easier to simply take just what will fit in the car :/
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Postby Rei » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:53 am

I think it's nearly always a hard decision when you move away the first time. In my case it came up because I really needed to get out of the house and I knew it, and I wanted to move far enough away that there wouldn't be the safety net of my immediate family should I want to go home or need something.

I did in fact know someone where I moved to (that being EL, and the rest is history ;)), but that was the only person I knew. I only really began making friends there, actually, after she went away to school.

The way I dealt with any sense of homesickness was by calling home and just visiting with family that way. I could only afford to see them for about a week a year, so it was phones or nothing most of the time, but that was generally sufficient. For me, though, that was good. I don't recall having a lot of difficulty adjusting to the change.

Right now, having moved even further away again, I'm finding the hardest change to deal with is not having a social network. EL has something of one and I am latching onto that a bit, but it's still difficult. The other thing I really wish I had was some sense of daily purpose which is generally found in work or school. And as I am not going to school here and I do not yet have a job, there is a certain aimlessness to life. (Yes, I know that job hunting IS a job, and a full-time one at that, but it lacks the sense of satisfaction that comes from a job that pays money.)

Really, looking back, if I had to do it again, I totally would. There's something very freeing about moving to a new place where nobody really knows you and you can be whoever you want to be without being judged because it's not the same as who you were when you were little.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:35 am

It was a reasonably hard decision to go, but I knew it was important and that I would be back soon enough for a visit. I think the hardest thing was that it was just after my mom was so sick, and I was leaving her just after a surgery, and knowing she would still face another to come. It was really, really hard to leave my mom, especially then.

Subsequent times leaving, it was much easier, probably because I'm used to moving around more now.

It came up because I wanted to go to school. :)

I get homesick some. Oddly, I get more homesick when I talk to my family more. It's like when I'm busy with other things and focused on where I am, I don't have time to think about missing home. The exception to this is around holidays.

The first time, not a soul. That was rough. But I moved into a house full of fellow grad students and everyone was very nice, so it worked out. Moving to BC was tough because I had met a couple people, but didn't really know anyone. Coming back here again was easier because I knew I would be seeing my friends again.

Was it difficult adjusting to the change? Sort of? It's hard to tell what was hard because it was genuinely foreign, and what was hard because it wasn't home, if that makes any sense at all. I had to get used to a new currency, a new lingo, set up a bank account, learn which way to look crossing the road, etc. Compared to that, settling into a new house in a new city was minor.

I find that bringing a few important things that remind you of home is more than worth the weight. I have one or two little dragons and a decorative wrap that come with me almost everywhere, because they make me feel at home. Likewise with my quilts. If I were forced to live somewhere without at least one of my mother's quilts, I would not ever feel at home. So you have to know what's important to you.

A place, like a romance, can lose the magic, but like a romance you should be able to find things you love deeper than the infatuation. Streets you like to walk, shops you like to visit, that little cafe that makes your order just right, and that building with the hilarious gargoyle. It's always worth the try, anyway. If you find it's lost the magic, what have you lost? You've lived in a new place, had some great experiences, and are ready to try something new! Hooray!
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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:03 am

All appreciated responses, guys. Thanks. :)
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:32 am

No problem!
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Postby Jayelle » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:48 am

HoooooooBoy. You know you asked for an essay from me when you asked this, eh?


People who are living not-in-the-place-you-grew-up/far from wherever you consider "home":

In am very far from home now, but I'm not sure whether I consider the place I lived till I was 18 as home, or the place I lived for the past 10 years (Winnipeg) to be home.
Both feel home-y to me.

Was it a hard decision, to go wherever you went from wherever you considered home? Why did the option of moving even come up?

For Winnipeg, it was easy. I didn't really choose to go there permanently - I went for school, but then I met Paul and got married and we just kinda ended up staying and making our home there. It became home - neither of us grew up there, so we made it ours.

Here, it was a hard decision in a way, but one I had already made long before I knew the actual place we would go to. When Paul decided to pursue graduate studies, we knew that he would go elsewhere in the country for a PhD. It would have been nice to live near family, but St. John's is where he was accepted, so that's where we came. But it was hard to move. With kids, it's very nice to be near family. I see my sister and my in-laws who are nearby to grandparents and it makes me jealous and sad that my girls aren't close to theirs - and not just for the emotional closeness, but for the practical things like free babysitting and help with "grown-up" stuff like buying a car and fixing a house.

Do you ever get homesick and if so, how do you combat that?
In Winnipeg, I rarely got homesick.
Here, I really have. It's a very different place. I've lived on the prairies my whole life, so the entire culture of the island is just very different then I'm used to. It's a very small city and kinda behind on the times. We're having trouble finding any other hippie-types.


Did you know anyone in the place you were moving to?


In Winnipeg, I knew my sister (who lived there briefly at the same time I did), but living in dorms I made friends really, really quickly. It's an atmosphere of friendship at CMU.

Here, I don't know a soul. It was a little frightening at first when there was a fire alarm late one night about a month after we moved here and we realized that we had absolutely NO ONE we could call or crash with if it had been an actual fire.
We've slowly made some acquaintances (and it of course helps that we have each other), but I don't know how to turn those into real friendships. It'll take some time. Serious time.

Was it difficult adjusting to the change?

Yes. Like I said before, it's very different both from where I grew up and where I lived for the past 10 years (which are essentially the same kind of city). Everything from the different accents to different food - it sometimes can feel like a different country.
Also, it's far. It's far from anywhere. It costs at least $1000 to fly here and it's a 14 hour ferry ride from the mainland. It's isolated and I'm isolated. So, it's hard.
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Postby zeroguy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:31 pm

I know anything I answer (truthfully) will probably be the least helpful, but you asked, and I feel like typing.

My decision to move out here was made for university, and wasn't particularly difficult. I don't really like being around family, and I think I just don't really like the east coast, which was a (admittedly smaller) part of the motivation to do so. The rest was just because of college choices.

I didn't know anyone when I came here. Well, actually, I knew two people in the area, but I didn't discover that until well after I moved out here. Doing such a transition via college makes things a lot easier, I guess, since you're forced to be around people, many of whom also just moved away from where they grew up. Climate- or culture-wise, things aren't much different, since I just moved from the mid-atlantic to the midwest. (The whole "pop" thing was, if anything, fun to have shouting matches about :)

I don't really ever get homesick, but I think that's because I've visited "place-I-grew-up" fairly often (a few times a year) ever since I moved out here. And, well, see the motivations for moving here in the first place. But I still talk to "place-I-grew-up" frequently (usually by calling).

But yeah, none of that's very useful because I tend to like to throw myself into situations like that and just see what happens. I tend to think it's better to just leave things behind rather than to cling to older memories of "home", but eh.
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