Debate Thread: round one: Legalization of Prostitution

[vendor]

This is an open debate. Feel free to join.

Prostitution, with regular check-ups (and condoms required), should be legalized in the US for the following reasons:

* Provide significant alleviation to overcrowded prisons (both the prostitutors and the prostitutees).
* More people out of prison and in legitimate jobs means a stronger economy.
* More taxable revenue
* It's working in Nevada (e.g. The Bunny Ranch)

[Young Val]

...isn't it only a debate if you also allow people to present why prostitution shouldn't be legalized?


...and... didn't you just give people potential arguments that they should have raised themselves?


then again, i'm in the middle of a nervous breakdown. so i'm probably so totally out of line. and not making sense. and i should stick to my own thread and melt down there.


i'm bowing out now.

[vendor]

Young Val wrote:

...isn't it only a debate if you also allow people to present why prostitution shouldn't be legalized?


...and... didn't you just give people potential arguments that they should have raised themselves?


then again, i'm in the middle of a nervous breakdown. so i'm probably so totally out of line. and not making sense. and i should stick to my own thread and melt down there.


i'm bowing out now.

Of course people should post why it shouldn't be legalized. I added points that I thought were supporting my argument in my opening statement. Create teams if you wish (affirmative/negative) . I just thought this would be fun.

[Young Val]

ah. i thought you were stating the debate topic.


you know what? never mind. clearly i'm a mess.


carry on.

[wigginboy]

I think the entire topic is despicable. While there is the example given of Nevada, this is still a very wrong thing to do. People should not be selling their bodies. Regardless of how much money is made and the revenue it might generate for a particular state, province or nation, it is still a horrible act. We have seen what prostitution does to people and how it affects areas where it is regularly practised. There is no reason why prostitution should be legalized in any form, in Canada at least, because at least we have some dignity.

[Hegemon]

wigginboy, perhaps you could outline some of your reasons as opposed to just having a kneejerk reaction that lacks explanation. Although you could very well be correct on this, i think the idea of this topic is to have a real debate where we use various sources to support our arguments and the like.

[mr_thebrain]

There is no reason why prostitution should be legalized in any form, in Canada at least, because at least we have some dignity.

riiiight cuz canada has never had any prostitution.

In Canada, prostitution itself is legal, but most other activities around it are not. It is illegal to live "off the avails" of prostitution (this law is intended to outlaw pimping) and it is illegal (for both parties) to negotiate a sex-for-money deal in a public place (which includes bars). To maintain a veneer of legality, escort agencies arrange a meeting between the escort and the client.

In the US, prostitution being what it is, there are a lot of pimps, and a lot of hookers, acting against the law, and it seems a lot more dirty a practice than it has to be. If it were legal here like it is in canada, with the same regulations put in place. (e.g. no pimps, regular check ups, condoms, etc.) Society would look upon the practice in a better light. I think it would still be a dirty, sleezy practice, but it wouldn't be as bad.

[Hegemon]

Yeah... When we learnt about it in our first year criminal law class they pointed out that prostitution is in fact legal, but communication for the purpose of prostitution is not.

[anonshadow]

The major kink that I see in legalizing prostitution is in spreading diseases. I don't think people would always bother with condoms, especially for something like oral sex, and condoms don't protect against some things (like herpes).

If a prostitute caught something uncurable, would she no longer be allowed to be a prostitute? Would she be barred from it? Who would pay for curing something that can be cured, and who would pay for treating something that can't be?

Wouldn't saying that she can't be a prosititute if she has HIV or herpes be some kind of discrimination?

[neo-dragon]

Wouldn't saying that she can't be a prosititute if she has HIV or herpes be some kind of discrimination?

No more so than saying that she can't be a blood donor, or that a blind man can't be a pilot, or a one handed man can't be a surgeon. There are some circumstances or conditions that automatically rule out the possibility of someone doing a certain job. It's not discrimination, it's just being practical and safe. I think the bigger question is, how often do you test them for STDs, and how do you ensure that they stop working immediately if they have something?

The other thing that came to my mind is, how does one ensure that prostitutes have a safe work environment?

[hive_king]

Safe work enviroment? You legalize only in-house prostitution (like brothels) and outlaw street prostitution. You then inspect the places regularly.

I do not see why prostitution should be illegal, as long as its regulated properly for the safety of the sex workers and the johns. Sure, many people (me included) find it sick, but if you don't like it, don't go to a brothel.

[anonshadow]

Wouldn't saying that she can't be a prosititute if she has HIV or herpes be some kind of discrimination?

No more so than saying that she can't be a blood donor, or that a blind man can't be a pilot, or a one handed man can't be a surgeon. There are some circumstances or conditions that automatically rule out the possibility of someone doing a certain job. It's not discrimination, it's just being practical and safe. I think the bigger question is, how often do you test them for STDs, and how do you ensure that they stop working immediately if they have something?

That's the other thing--some things take awhile to show up on tests, especially HIV. A prostitute could contract HIV and pass it to ten people before it even showed up on a test.

I would say that one should have to be tested once a week. Should you be able to work before the tests came back? That makes it seem like more of a formality, which I don't think it is.

[anonshadow]

Safe work enviroment? You legalize only in-house prostitution (like brothels) and outlaw street prostitution. You then inspect the places regularly.

So you can't be a self-employed prostitute?

[Epi]

Yeah... When we learnt about it in our first year criminal law class they pointed out that prostitution is in fact legal, but communication for the purpose of prostitution is not.

So true. Not that I would dedicate my life to such an endevour, but I was thinking a while ago, would it be illegal to create a business whereby people would essentially become amateur porn producers, except it's always at the same place with the same girls, and the porn tape mysteriously dissapears after the session? (then again hell, they can keep the tape at an extra price).

Basically have people pay a fee to an 'actress' and a 'filming company' to make 'porn'.


I think making prostitution legal would probably be a good thing. Then we could regulate it, make sure people are tested for diseases, make sure organized crime isn't involved and crack down on teenaged prostitution. Because potential 'customers' would be willing to go to the legalized prostitution, this would dry up business for any remaining illegal prostitution. Overall it would help protect women and protect people.

Whether you want it or not, prostitution has been going on since before history was recorded, and it will continue to go on. So why not make it legal and regulate it?

[Hegemon]

Safe work enviroment? You legalize only in-house prostitution (like brothels) and outlaw street prostitution. You then inspect the places regularly.

So you can't be a self-employed prostitute?

No more so than you can be a self-employed surgeon working out of your basement.

EDIT:

In case someone here missed my sarcasm, DON'T do surgery in your basement.

[Epi]

Safe work enviroment? You legalize only in-house prostitution (like brothels) and outlaw street prostitution. You then inspect the places regularly.

So you can't be a self-employed prostitute?

No more so than you can be a self-employed surgeon working out of your basement.

EDIT:

In case someone here missed my sarcasm, DON'T do surgery in your basement.

Actually basically all doctors are self-employed. They are professionals, therefore self-employed. And I bet somewhere someone has an operating room in their basement

[starlooker]

So the issue is then one of licensure?

[anonshadow]

Safe work enviroment? You legalize only in-house prostitution (like brothels) and outlaw street prostitution. You then inspect the places regularly.

So you can't be a self-employed prostitute?

No more so than you can be a self-employed surgeon working out of your basement.

EDIT:

In case someone here missed my sarcasm, DON'T do surgery in your basement.

s***. That was illegal????

[lyons24000]

I think it's odd that pornography is legal but prostitution isn't. If you have a recording studio behind you and both of the people (or however many are in this movie) are getting paid, then it's legal. If prostitutes want to make their profession legal then all they have to do is buy a video camera.

[Hegemon]

I think it's odd that pornography is legal but prostitution isn't. If you have a recording studio behind you and both of the people (or however many are in this movie) are getting paid, then it's legal. If prostitutes want to make their profession legal then all they have to do is buy a video camera.

you know, I have always wondered the exact same thing.

[Epi]

I think it's odd that pornography is legal but prostitution isn't. If you have a recording studio behind you and both of the people (or however many are in this movie) are getting paid, then it's legal. If prostitutes want to make their profession legal then all they have to do is buy a video camera.

you know, I have always wondered the exact same thing.

As I did 7 posts ago...

[mr_thebrain]

it's something i only consider when i'm watching porn. which is to say, most of the time.

[hive_king]

Sure prostitutes can be self-employed. They can be independant contractors negotiating to work at a brothel for a set rate or set commision per customor for a certain amount of time.

[vendor]

medical insurance would have to be standard for testing, birth control, and legitimacy of the occupation.

I agree with H-K about the necessity of the business being in brothels. Each room can have a camera to ensure the woman's safety, and to make sure all the women are adhering to site and government regulations.

In this day and age, production of new technology is dictated by demand (described in Alvin and Heidi Toffler's War and Anti-War). With the demand for the women to be clean results in less than 24hrs for all std tests are just around the corner.

Disclaimer: I think that prostitution is morally wrong. I don't participate in it. However, I don't think governments should enforce morals.

[anonshadow]

Here I am thinking that these people were signing up to be prostitutes, not porn stars... not such a fan of the surveillance thing.

--

I'm curious--why is the assumption that all prostitutes are/would be women?

Because, well, they're not.

[mr_thebrain]

i prefer the term giggalo when discussing my profession.

[vendor]

you're absolutely right. I shouldn't have made it sound like I only believed women would be in it. Of course men are in it as well. People should be able to do with their bodies as they please.

[liquifiedrainbows]

If prostitution was made legal nothing would change.

People would still buy sex for money. People would still get money for sex.

Which makes you wonder why it is illegal in the first place.

This leads me onto another train of thought. How can the government say you can not do something with your own body which causes no harm to anyone.

Anyone who wants to bring up diseases aqcuired due to prostitution have not thought about what it might be like if it was legal and only those who have been tested are allowed to sell a human service.

So why is prostitution illegal? Moral standards are being made into law.

[anonshadow]

If prostitution was made legal nothing would change.

People would still buy sex for money. People would still get money for sex.

I don't agree. I think that things would change. It's definitely true that people who really want something will do it no matter what. Someone who really, really wants cocaine will get cocaine. Someone who really, really wants to break into your house will probably get in.

But there are also crimes of opportunity (and the opposite). A person who sees a window open and no one home, or passes a car and sees the keys in the ignition, may take advantage of the situation. That doesn't mean that they would go to the trouble otherwise.

The same is true, I think, for something that is legal. If it was legal for eighteen year olds to drink in the USA, more would, because they can. The ones who want to drink will do so anyway, but there are others who will do it only if offered alcohol, or only until they hit drinking age. Similarly, I think that prostitution is something that more people would become involved in if it was legal, and if it was safer.

Which makes you wonder why it is illegal in the first place.

This leads me onto another train of thought. How can the government say you can not do something with your own body which causes no harm to anyone.

Anyone who wants to bring up diseases aqcuired due to prostitution have not thought about what it might be like if it was legal and only those who have been tested are allowed to sell a human service.

Actually, we have, and we've explained why diseases are a concern. HIV, in particular, which there is no cure for and kills millions of people a year, does not show up on testing, even after you have contracted it and are contaigious, for up to four months. If Jane contracts HIV on April 3, she can be tested one hundred times in the next two months and have it fail to show up on any of them.

There's also the question of the patrons--if a patron infects a prostitute, what happens? Is that an acceptable risk? Is it a risk they have to be willing to take? What health precautions would be taken if a prostitute was infected in the line of work? Would every person the prostitute had slept with be required to take a test to ensure that they had not also picked it up?

I don't that prostitution should be illegal, but, at the same time, I don't like people oversimplying the issue.

[liquifiedrainbows]

I see your points. All are valid, but all do not explore possible solutions to the problems you have presented.

But there are also crimes of opportunity (and the opposite). A person who sees a window open and no one home, or passes a car and sees the keys in the ignition, may take advantage of the situation. That doesn't mean that they would go to the trouble otherwise.

That does not mean that deterence should come above protecting citizens for doing something that doesn't have any benefit other then deterence. There are other ways to protect everyone.

The same is true, I think, for something that is legal. If it was legal for eighteen year olds to drink in the USA, more would, because they can. The ones who want to drink will do so anyway, but there are others who will do it only if offered alcohol, or only until they hit drinking age. Similarly, I think that prostitution is something that more people would become involved in if it was legal, and if it was safer.

That's the point of making it legal. Make it safer. If they made sure that everyone wore protection it would be safer. I am not saying it would be completely safe. I am saying it would be safer. It would be providing more protection then is currently available for those who wish to take a risk. I think that is worth it.

The same is true, I think, for something that is legal. If it was legal for eighteen year olds to drink in the USA, more would, because they can. The ones who want to drink will do so anyway, but there are others who will do it only if offered alcohol, or only until they hit drinking age. Similarly, I think that prostitution is something that more people would become involved in if it was legal, and if it was safer.

Yes this is probably true. More people would be willing to have sex with prostitutes if it was legal. As I mentioned above it would be safer if it was legal. It would be safer, but it would not be safe. I do not think it should be the governments job to decide whether a person is able to subject themselves to a risk. If they are willing to take the risk let them take it. They are only hurting themselves. If they hurt the prostitute in the process by giving her an STD even though protection will be required then that is something that she subjected herself too. It would be safer for her and for her patron. The government would be taking a step to make things safer, not to set moral standards. The latter should not be the job of the government the former should.

Actually, we have, and we've explained why diseases are a concern. HIV, in particular, which there is no cure for and kills millions of people a year, does not show up on testing, even after you have contracted it and are contaigious, for up to four months. If Jane contracts HIV on April 3, she can be tested one hundred times in the next two months and have it fail to show up on any of them.

[quote/]

Do you not think that if prostitution was made legal and protection was enforced there would not be a decrease in the amount of people which get aids?

There's also the question of the patrons--if a patron infects a prostitute, what happens? Is that an acceptable risk? Is it a risk they have to be willing to take? What health precautions would be taken if a prostitute was infected in the line of work? Would every person the prostitute had slept with be required to take a test to ensure that they had not also picked it up?[/quote]

A legal question complicating a situation should never make the government disregard the protection of its citizens.

Overall sex should not be something that is illegal for the reasons stated above and because it is not harmful in and of itself. If the proper precations are taken it is not harmful at all, and the proper precautions are the reason why it should be legal.

[Jayelle]

Not Harmful in and of itself? Harmful in what way? Physically? Emotionally? Psychologically?

There are so many more factors to take into account then just the spread of disease.

[eriador]

the legalization of prostitution makes sense for a few simple reasons, regardless of the specific details. The first is that it will free up space in the legal system (in terms of jail beds, police forces and judicial resources) to go after much more harmful criminals [insert political reference], but also that it can make a possibly risky buisiness into a more respectable one that can be regulated instead of being forced underground

[peterlocke123]

Well if we would actually use the death penalty jail beds wouldn't be a problem...

[eriador]

That's not the point of the debate. Please keep me from going off on you and your off-topic posts.

[anonshadow]

Well if we would actually use the death penalty jail beds wouldn't be a problem...

And money would be a bigger one.

Now, unless you're suggesting putting prostitutes to death to free up jail beds, let's get back on topic.