Seriously, guys...

[Satya]

What the hell. Like, 3 posts all day? Has the necrotic, contagious internet fungus that spreads like chlamydia through a small town high school finally devoured so much of your central nervous system's that you've lost the motor function necessary to pound away at your keyboards with your hamfisted, hairy-knuckled attempts at primitive communication? Or have you finally realized that no amount of semi-lucid text responses, however luminous and inviting on your screen, that comes spewed like projectile vomit into your faces, will satisfy the gnawing hole inside you? Come now, I know you better than that. You want this. You need this. Surely this dearth of poo-flinging in the zoo is the result only of a temporary downturn due to the recession. Well, sack up, even those of you without ball-bags (or those without ones of your own, but carrying around someone else's in your iron-fisted va-jay-jays.) You can do better. We deserve better. I've seen more interesting threads on your mom's undergarments. I've heard more interesting conversations from one old homeless guy jabbering to himself on a streetcorner. I know grinding the rusted cogs in your heads to accomplish more than benign babble and inane small talk sounds like work, but trust me - it'll be worth it. I have a dream, of a site that returns, if not to its former glory, at least to an amusing shadow of its former self. I have a dream, people. And I will use you to achieve that dream - and you will like it! I also have a dream that my teeth all fall out, but I can't figure out what that means. It's probably not related. ANYWAYS. You guys seem about as active as a frozen turd and about half as interesting. Get 'er done!

[Aesculapius]

Finally!! I've been waiting for someone to wake everyone up!
Good job. It isn't always so slow here, it gets interesting sometimes. But I'm glad you started this thread.

[Eaquae Legit]

I haven't flung any poo. But I've been chased (briefly) by a crazed Vietnam vet armed with a dish towel.

Right now I'm doing professional fundraising for a local hospital (soon, the UN?), so when I get home after a day knocking on doors, my brain sort of dribbles out my ears. Last night I dreamed about work. I pitched people all night IN MY DREAMS. Anybody want to help support a Nobel-winning research hospital?

Sadly, my academics are currently on hold, and I broke up with England. Rather, England broke up with me and I still pine after it and beg it to take me back.

Current favourite tv shows include: Big Bang Theory, Merlin, Numb3rs, Mock the Week, Doctor Who, and The Sky at Night.

Also, it hailed today. I was not impressed. I was glad to not be on my bike. I bike a lot these days, mostly commuting. 500km since late July!

I miss England. Why won't it take me back?!

[zeroguy]

I've heard more interesting conversations from one old homeless guy jabbering to himself on a streetcorner.

To be fair, that guy's conversations were pretty damn awesome. Assuming I'm thinking of the right thing.

You guys seem about as active as a frozen turd and about half as interesting. Get 'er done!

You could drag some of the others back, too. Kicking and screaming if ya have to.

[Gravity Defier]

benign babble and inane small talk

This is all I do.

But you've done an excellent job of firing up the troops, so I'm not worried.

[elfprince13]

babbling is fun, but there have to be other babblers around too, or i'm not motivated.

[CezeN]

Unmanifest potential with intention to beat coming out the black hole of eternity - still the gentry - breaking barriers to entry, making complex seem elementary to the sentry
With the extrasensory to bring the info back with data entry - that's my function in conjunction with the power of the sun - I intergrate differentiate the pieces into one

[Eaquae Legit]

Mrrhhhagghaaaaarrrrrnnnnnysammiches? Sammiches?

(One of the local regulars.)

[Gravity Defier]

Sammiches?

I am impatiently waiting until noon to have the one that's been sitting in the fridge since last night. The other half was so good.

[Qing_Jao]

Ok, so yeah. Life's been interesting here, too.

dunno how much I've said. R got a new job about a year ago, and it's been pretty good. Had some really harsh things happen this summer, had my parents visit (all the way from ID) just a couple weeks ago, and not a lot else. Mainly surviving.

Son is 6 now and is on ADHD meds. Not my first choice for things, but the change they make is pretty amazing and downright necessary. He's going to a Montessori school and loves it. Which is a very good thing.

Daughter /just/ turned 4. She's still having some challenges speaking clearly, but I've been informed that it might be a function of a large vocabulary rather than a speech impediment (go figure. My kids with large vocabs. ).

I haven't been doing a lot other than reading some stuff online. I was doing some text Mu*, but even that's slowed down considerably. So... it's not just here that I've sort of let slip.

I'll try to check back here more often, and peek into the chat if I can get Astra to work it right. I had been using Digsby,and it doesn't have multi-person chat, or didn't at the time.

[Dr. Mobius]

I've seen more interesting threads on your mom's undergarments.

Sweet, you found them! I was wondering where those went.

[elfprince13]

Son is 6 now and is on ADHD meds. Not my first choice for things, but the change they make is pretty amazing and downright necessary. He's going to a Montessori school and loves it. Which is a very good thing.

I don't want to be critical of your parenting, because that's not a burden I've had to bear, but...........<rant>I hate this mentality that 6 year olds are broken if they can't sit still for 7 hours a day. SCREW THAT. Six year olds should be outside grabbing frogs and hitting each other with sticks. I'd have been all doped up too if my mother had cared to get me diagnosed, and I'm damn glad she didn't. I still can't sit still or pay attention for long to anything but reading and programming (because those grab all my imagination and energy), but I'm doing just fine in school because people (read: parents, teachers) cared to give me the attention that was necessary to help me learn. My best friend is dosed with the closest pharmaceutical equivalent to cocaine, on a daily basis, so that he can perform well in school and it's really changed him....academics AND his personality. The best thing for a child is not to be drugged up, its to be loved and nurtured and played with, and anyone who tells you differently is either looking to make money off the drug sales, too lazy to put their best effort in to the nurturing process or doesn't remember what it's like to be a kid.</rant>

Read that as anger and frustration with the American elementary education culture, not as a personal attack on your parenting.

[locke]

*snark mode* quite frankly meds may be necessary for all boys to get them to behave more like girls and acquiesce quietly to sitting still for long periods of time at young ages. Afterall, learning doesn't involve the body, only the mind, right? */snark*



ADHD meds are a godsend to many parents and teachers and necessary for many of those on them. Because there is some anecdotal evidence that the meds are occasionally overprescribed does not indicate that there is anything wrong with meds in general. two anecdotal experiences (I'm hyper and don't need meds because.... & my friend is hyper and needs meds because...) and the conclusion drawn from those anecdotes (my experience is inherently better and his is inherently inferior because...) do not lend themselves an accurate or dispassionate assessment of meds' efficacity or their supposed or attributed side effects. Rather anecdotal experience lends itself to leaping to conclusions and then recruiting evidence to support the conclusion through flawed selection and confirmation bias data gathering strategies. That's not the scientific method.


This is unrelated, but reminds me of all the nonsense about vaccines causing autism. In every controlled study there has been no statistically significant relationship between vaccination and autism, but people want so BADLY for there to be a cause of autism that the anti-science, anti-sense, anti-vaccination movement is growing in strength. Afterall, knowing that vaccination 'is bad' in your gut is definitely a more accurate assessment of the situation than dozens of controlled scientific studies.

[starlooker]

Adam, thank you for your non-snarky ADHD-meds posting.

Are meds prescribed when they aren't necessary? Yes, absolutely. Does this mean ADHD does not exist/no child should be prescribed them? NO. Not in the slightest.

And if I were a parent who had chosen to put my kid on meds, I'm not sure how I would read

The best thing for a child is not to be drugged up, its to be loved and nurtured and played with, and anyone who tells you differently is either looking to make money off the drug sales, too lazy to put their best effort in to the nurturing process or doesn't remember what it's like to be a kid.

other than as an attack. And a very ignorant attack, at that. So, what, parents who choose to use medication as part of their child's treatment just don't love or spend time with their kids? Try again.

I'm sorry you don't like how meds affect your friend. But it is arrogant beyond belief to think that your particular experience is a basis of knowledge for how every parent should weigh the costs/benefits of medications for their child.

[Luet]

What Kirsten said. Sorry Thomas, but I think you are way off on this one.

[Qing_Jao]

Oh, believe me, I'm the last person to normally do this. But we were at our wits end and, unfortunately, contrary to my grandiose dreams from my teen years, I wasn't able to homeschool him. He's in a Montessori school, and is already doing some subjects a grade-level above current, which told me it wasn't the lack of challenge. They worked with him for over a year before I acquiesced, and I made sure to start with the lowest dose lightest one (not steroid based for family med history reasons). So, yes. I hate the idea, but I'll gladly get over my normally-mistrustful mind when it comes to the medical profession, and give my son his medication.

But I agree. If there were other things I could do to keep him where he needs to be, then... I'd do it.

[Satya]

I was lucky enough to be homeschooled. I would have probably needed meds otherwise, but most likely wouldn't have got them since my dad was an ultra-religious anti-med, anti-psychiatry evangelical.

[elfprince13]

I'm responding to mostly Adam's post on this, because his response illustrates exactly what I'm getting at. I really don't want to turn this into a personal battle, but I'm trying to get at something hard here, that nobody is willing to touch on in any sort of meaningful way, precisely because it is a personal subject for any parent, and for any child. Being significantly closer to childhood than most of the rest of you, I'm pretty sure most of you will disagree with me on issues of how children should be treated, so the best I can do is apologize in advance for toes that may be stepped on, and try to explain that I'm not going around with a sledgehammer looking for toes to drop it on, I'm trying to get some help pushing a boulder.

Kirsten: You're absolutely right that meds are an acceptable part of treatment, but as far as I'm concerned, treatment should be limited to when there's something actually wrong with a child, not to be rid of normal child behavior. The except from my post that quoted was more a reflection of my bitterness against the professionals (teachers especially) working with children. I'm fully aware that most parents want nothing more than the best for their children, and that that's why they listen to such people. When was the last time you were in an elementary school? Every time I've been in one in the 6 years it's made me furious beyond belief at what's being done in the name of education and behavioral training. I don't know. Maybe other people just don't see the beauty in noisy, exuberant, running-and-screaming childhood, but that's what I see ADHD medication taking away, and leaving in it's place quiet, studious little mini-adults waiting for their bodies to catch up.

quite frankly meds may be necessary for all boys to get them to behave more like girls and acquiesce quietly to sitting still for long periods of time at young ages.

My point exactly. That doesn't suggest to you that something is being done wrong? I'm sure every parent reads Calvin and Hobbes with more than a little bit of fear in their hearts that their kid is going to be a menace like Calvin, but there's a reason Watterson wrote him that way, and it's because Calvin is the essence of what a little boy should be. There are some sacrifices, that are absolutely NOT worth it from my perspective.

ADHD meds are a godsend to many parents and teachers and necessary for many of those on them.

Not to the kids. To the adults who deal with them.

do not lend themselves an accurate or dispassionate assessment of meds' efficacity

I'm not disputing efficacity. My point is that they are tremendously efficacious, and that their efficacity is, in my mind, a tragedy of stolen childhood.

[edit]

Actually, that ended up being more to Kirsten than to Adam.

[Gravity Defier]

Elf, I think you'd like from 15:10 on in this: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ken_ ... ivity.html

[daPyr0x]

Alright I'm going to take a stab at this because I have utterly no scientific backing or any reason whatsoever for having an opinion, I merely enjoy challenging the boundaries.

ADHD meds are a godsend to many parents and teachers and necessary for many of those on them.

Not to the kids. To the adults who deal with them.

Have you ever seen the TV show Dexter? I know it seems irrelevant, but bare with me. The show, for the uninitiated, is about a man who grew up with a recurring urge to kill things. As an adult, he works by day as a blood spatter analyst, and by night he stalks and murders people who have beaten the system and deserve to die to satisfy his urges.

Now, in this fictional situation, if he were ever caught, he would surely be locked away for the remainder of his life. Is that for his benefit? Or for those around him?

I get that the overprescription issue is present; but at the same time kids need to be able to be handled in social situations. If it takes a prescription drug to help kids learn there is a time and place for everything, then that's what it takes in some situations, no?

do not lend themselves an accurate or dispassionate assessment of meds' efficacity

I'm not disputing efficacity. My point is that they are tremendously efficacious, and that their efficacity is, in my mind, a tragedy of stolen childhood.

This is the second thing I take issue with. As someone whos childhood was 'stolen' in the same sense without the use of any prescribed mood altering drugs I'm bothered by your assumptive generalizations. Look, I can give you a million ways to steal a person's childhood from them, and yes the overzealous use of prescription mood altering drugs is definitely one of them; but this is a baby and bathwater situation.

[Satya]

I just have an amazing gift, I guess. I don't even need to start a debate for a debate to spring to life of its own accord in my threads.

Here's my take. Medication can be helpful - but to whom? We still don't know a lot more than we know about the fragile and complex manner in which neurochemicals affect/control mood, behavior and so on. And especially in children, whose brains have not yet developed, what are going to be the long term effects of pharmacalogical force being exerted on that neurological system? Frying out neurotransmitters, overloading receptors, uptake/reuptake inhibition, seratonin deficiencies OR overdoses... There's too much that can go wrong, in my opinion.

I know this issue personally. I've muddled through anxiety and panic attacks and depression, it runs in my family and I know a lot of people, some close, who use/need medication to live some semblance of a normal life. Sometimes the doctor and patient can manage to find a balance that works, through psychological and medicinal means, that is helpful. That balance is hard to come by, and rarer in children who can't adequately communicate everything to the physician, let alone understand what's going on in their brains.

I've never taken psychiatric medication. I probably won't. I don't want to. I can already tell when I'm chemically imbalanced, and sometimes its hard as hell to get through. Maybe medication would help. Maybe it would do more harm than good. For now, I rely on non-medical means of managing stress, anxiety and the like. The right foods, supplements, sleep, meditation, exercise, recreation and so on are all effective means. I am in no way saying that more extreme cases don't require actual medical intervention, but in so many cases it's not necessary. It's a lot cheaper and 'easier' to prescribe an inexpensive pill you pop once a day than to pay for time-consuming, expensive counselling or therapy or to develop all the aforementioned habits in lieu of such.

It is a last resort, and a last resort only, to medicate yourself, or especially a child, when the issue is brain chemical balance.

[locke]

We still don't know a lot more than we know about the fragile and complex manner in which neurochemicals affect/control mood, behavior and so on. And especially in children, whose brains have not yet developed, what are going to be the long term effects of pharmacalogical force being exerted on that neurological system?

I know this issue personally. I've muddled through anxiety and panic attacks and depression, it runs in my family and I know a lot of people, some close, who use/need medication to live some semblance of a normal life. Sometimes the doctor and patient can manage to find a balance that works, through psychological and medicinal means, that is helpful. That balance is hard to come by, and rarer in children who can't adequately communicate everything to the physician, let alone understand what's going on in their brains.

*snip*

I've never taken psychiatric medication. I probably won't. I don't want to. I can already tell when I'm chemically imbalanced, and sometimes its hard as hell to get through. Maybe medication would help. Maybe it would do more harm than good. For now, I rely on non-medical means of managing stress, anxiety and the like. The right foods, supplements, sleep, meditation, exercise, recreation and so on are all effective means. I am in no way saying that more extreme cases don't require actual medical intervention, but in so many cases it's not necessary. It's a lot cheaper and 'easier' to prescribe an inexpensive pill you pop once a day than to pay for time-consuming, expensive counselling or therapy or to develop all the aforementioned habits in lieu of such.

It is a last resort, and a last resort only, to medicate yourself, or especially a child, when the issue is brain chemical balance.

Almost all of the time patients do not know enough about how:
some of the time doctors do not know enough about how:
very rarely do the researchers & FDA not know enough about how:
chemicals affect/control mood, behavior and so on. And especially in children...

That's the reason why you seem to think it's okay to take supplements (every one of them is an utter crock of s***, don't believe me, go watch Bigger Stronger Faster) but view taking a pill that an expert who has evaluated you and prescribed for you as a "last resort."

People take supplements because it makes them feel in control, imo, makes them feel that they know as much, or more, than doctors. it's a bit of self empowerment that is, in my opinion, more like self-deception.

in my opinion, supplements are part of a pre-modern, largely intentional world. Medicine is part of the dis-enchanted scientific world. People still rebel against our disenchanted world because our brains are evolved to understand the world in intentional terms rather than with a scientific outlook, which generally requires training. It took about 400-500 years from the point when Vesalius began cutting open cadavers (to see how people worked) to develop and refine science into the insanely effective tool we have today, one only has to look at the accomplishments of the last 100 years to see that science trumps the pre-modern every time.

[daPyr0x]

People take supplements because it makes them feel in control, imo, makes them feel that they know as much, or more, than doctors. it's a bit of self empowerment that is, in my opinion, more like self-deception.

in my opinion, supplements are part of a pre-modern, largely intentional world. Medicine is part of the dis-enchanted scientific world. People still rebel against our disenchanted world because our brains are evolved to understand the world in intentional terms rather than with a scientific outlook, which generally requires training. It took about 400-500 years from the point when Vesalius began cutting open cadavers (to see how people worked) to develop and refine science into the insanely effective tool we have today, one only has to look at the accomplishments of the last 100 years to see that science trumps the pre-modern every time.

While I recognize that this experience may well be true to a "westerner," I'm curious to think of how that belief comes in to play in other parts of the world where treatments regularly include herbal remedies and the like. One could argue that supplements are the bastardization of these remedies, which are just as nobly born and refined throughout centuries.

That being said, I don't entirely disagree with you. I'd say it's entirely common for many in North America to take supplements just as you say because they feel they know as much or more than doctors. I'd also say, though, that some doctors (mine included) do recommend the use of certain supplements for different things. As an example, my doctor recommended taking Vitamin C and Zinc tablets to beat out a cold, which I do to great effect.

Wait, aren't super condensed and purified forms of vitamins and minerals brought to us thanks to science?

[locke]

Wait, aren't super condensed and purified forms of vitamins and minerals brought to us thanks to science?

yes, if you think that supplements, which are unregulated and have no obligation to contain what they claim (thanks Sen. Hatch!), actually have in them what they claim.

some companies are large enough that they probably have what they claim just to avoid suit.

A lot of supplements I'm thinking of are the sorts you see in men's magazines, in health food stores and on the web. That stuff is s***.

sorry for the thread derailment all, this has been on my mind A LOT as the girl I'm dating is into homeopathy... so it's all bubbling out to the fore here, rather than her. lol.

[Jeesh_girl15]

So, is this just another complete randomness thread?

[Satya]

The supplements I take work. Any that have ever not done what I expected of them I stopped taking. That's how it works. Not sure what your deal with them is (especially considering that they were one tiny word amongst a list of things I do), but whatev. Ashwagandha works for me. So does CoQ10. So does Melatonin and Valerian, but I didn't like the side effects so I don't take them anymore. Doesn't mean they didn't work, just not for me. Gingko and ginseng work, and have for millenia. Bilberry works, sometimes so well that the users eyesight quantifiably improves by several diopters of optometric power. N.O. works exactly as it says it does. As does properly taken Creatine. Licorice root works extremely well at helping urinary infections clear. Turmeric is also a potent supplement. Is this what you were talking about, or about the s*** that GNC and the like promote as magic fat-burners and muscle-builders, which any idiot should realize are bunk? Or do you mean Acai and the like which is just faddish crap? And... to finish, all modern medicine is built upon the millenia of trial and error which began with what we had available - the plants, animals and things of nature.

[zeroguy]

People take supplements because it makes them feel in control

I thought it was because they gave me b12. And they make me feel not, uh, dead.

[Wind Swept]

I try to think creatively about bringing Pweb into the new era of Internet communications, and what do I get? Nothing but a bunch of apathy and resistance from change leery veterans.

Satya comes back and yells and everyone starts posting again.

*sigh*

[Satya]

Damn right. When I say 'jump', you say 'how high?!'

That, and I'm the f***ing man. The s***. I ooze charisma like Slimer. This is just a warm up for world-takeover.

[Syphon the Sun]

You just wake up and piss excellence.

[Satya]

Yessur. And when I take the Browns to the Super Bowl, I crap perfection. One time I convinced a Neo-Nazi that Hitler was black. I once talked a cop into arresting his partner. People just listen to me; and why not? I turn straight guys gay and make lesbians want the cock.