Revitalizing a Stagnant Community

[Wind Swept]

Okay, all you old fogies that don't care to discuss Ender or discuss politics or otherwise venture outside the community portions of the Philotic Web:

As you may have noticed, much of the old guard has departed our sacred halls. We all of us came in droves so many years ago because of our love/curiosity for Ender and his world. That was exhausted quickly enough, but we stuck around long past anything reasonable because we made friends. More importantly, we made friends that we could talk to whenever we wanted to. Unlike our "real life" friends who were never online or went to bed early or had jobs or were otherwise unreachable.

Then life got more complicated and the Internet became more pervasive, and the time spent on Phoebe (Pweb, if you must) turned into time spent at work or with the family or staying out late or, and this is the real killer if you ask me, lurking our "real" friends now that they're all on Facebook.

As a result, the Philotic Web Community has been dying a slow, agonizing death for the past several years. Every time I come back there are fewer Oldbies than there were before, and more and more it's the same six threads sitting at the top of Milagre that survive almost entirely based on the fact that no one from the "real" world is ever going to see them.

My question to you is, How do we fix this? It is painfully obvious that the community will not survive the way Phoebe (I'm going to keep saying it until everyone does.) is now. So what do YOU think we should do?



My first thought is Facebook. Many of us are friends with each other there. Were we to integrate Facebook Connect with Phoebe, when someone makes a post, it could pop up in the news feed, and people that don't regularly check back on Phoebe would be alerted to activity, perhaps driving them here.

That also grants us the opportunity to representing ourselves as ourselves, rather than as anonymous usernames. I know a handful of members who would object to such nonsense, but I'm sure there are a number of us, myself included, open to such a change. I'm fairly certain it could be handled in a way that would allow both options. Or else people could just sign up for an alternate account to use when they're posting incriminating things in Dear Bob or Confessions.

The tricky bit is that I've had very little success tracking down successful phpBB-Facebook Connect integrations. It would take some experimenting to get it working right, but I'm sure the subset of web programmers we have here would be up to the task. Preferably we would avoid moving to another system that leaves yet another generation of posts to the Wayback Machine.



Now, I'd hate to suggest that Facebook is the one, true savior of Phoebe. I'm sure other measures could be taken toward revitalizing our community.

On a less transformational note, I think scheduled chats would be a fun way to get people going again.

What do you think?

[mr_thebrain]

i think pweb has always gone in waves of popularity and slumps of lurkers. summers being the worst times of such because everyone is out doing things. for some reasons as soon as school bells ring, the community flourishes. we plod along through our summers and enjoy our winter months. its the way it has been, it's the way it will most likely continue to be. so relax, kick your feet up, post 'em when you got 'em and enjoy the down time.

for the record, i detest facebook and the other so called social networking sites. my wife set up a profile for me, and now i keep getting annoying emails from people wanting to add me as their friend. to which (if i actually TALKED to these people) i would tell them not to bother because i'm never on that site and not to take offense when i don't add them to my list. but it's simply easier on their feelings to hit accept. but it doesn't change the fact that i want nothing to do with that site. and if those idiots were truly my friends they would pick up the phone and call me, invite me to do things. a gesture i have extended them in the past as friends many times. but nothing. these people are not my friends. they never had intention to be a friend to me. i am simply friends list stuffing. if anything, facebook ruins friendships. if pweb were to merge with facebook i would protest the move. and likely forfeit my membership. in fact, i have half a mind to actually go to facebook and delete my account, if that is even possible.

[Wind Swept]

A discussion on Facebook's effect on interpersonal relations perhaps deserves its own thread, but I would offer that integrating Facebook Connect would not necessarily require you to use Facebook with the Philotic Web. It would simply add the option to represent yourself here as you do on Facebook, as well as the option to post/receive Philotic Web activity updates on Facebook. Those that wish their account to remain as is could leave it as such.

[mr_thebrain]

still, i don't see as it's very necessary. it's pweb's natural cycle. it'll be busy again. it always is.

[Yebra]

Much as I'm normally the one who tries to fix everything in life with a new tool (addicted to wikis) it's not really the technology that's at fault here as it is we simply have less people joining and older members finding less time for it. Which, you know, happens. I'm not really sure how facebook can stop that.

That aside, the problem you'll run into is getting any changes made to the pweb backend. I’m just thinking of that competition we had a while ago to replace the non-quite-enderverse logo at the top, and we had some really nice entries but nothing ever happened with it because to all extents and purposes we don't seem have anyone with admin access. Obviously our admin have more pressing needs than to tend the tech side of a community they're only peripherally involved in (which again is fine and to be expected), but sometimes I remember we used to have a whole site before you even got to the forum and it makes me sad that’s likely never coming back. Unless we have some people with the ability to do more than tend the flock, I can’t really see us growing.

But even if we can’t actually increase the activity we could create the illusion by bringing some stuff back into Milagre. I'm not quite sure why we subdivide as much as we do (The Foyer being the most perplexing example) if we keep doing this eventually we’re going to have a separate area solely for threads about how the community’s slowing down. In defence of those “same six threads” personally if Milagre was nothing but Bob it'd be worth the visit. We have some formula threads, but doesn’t make it bad. If a bunch of people starting doing regular chats and putting times up that might be fun, but seeing as you people all live in silly time zones that’s probably not something that I can get into in a big way. But go nuts.

Also: Phoebe?

[Wind Swept]

Much as I'm normally the one who tries to fix everything in life with a new tool (addicted to wikis) it's not really the technology that's at fault here as it is we simply have less people joining and older members finding less time for it. Which, you know, happens. I'm not really sure how facebook can stop that.

Well, the point is that older members are finding less time for it, but they are finding time for Facebook. Today, looking at just the people I'm friends with, there's activity from Fodi, Oliver Dale, Petra, Virmoli, strokeman and Jayelle on Facebook. No activity on the Philotic Web from any of them but Jan.

Now, were Philotic Web plugged into Facebook, all of them (assuming they haven't removed me from their Feed) could have seen something like "Chris Fried started a thread called 'The Reluctant Death of a Community' on the Philotic Web," and maybe a couple of them would have clicked on it, and maybe one of them would have posted a reply.

I'm not saying Facebook would kick us back into high gear, but I think it would certainly bring old members back around more often, myself included.

[mr_thebrain]

sounds like a lot of work for 6 people.

[Luet]

I'm still here every single day and I sure hope I count as an oldby since I was here from the first or second day of pweb. I might not post a ton but I still post pretty regularly. I would be against the facebook connect idea. While I do have an account there, I am not a big fan of it at all.

[powerfulcheese04]

I already check pweb (and facebook) every day. But, I'm not very active here. Not really sure why. I think I'm less active at things that require more than a line or two of writing because I've gotten so busy. (My livejournal has also taken a nose dive.)

[human.]

I'm all for scheduled pwebchats! The chat used to be pretty active, even during the summer, if I remember correctly. 2007 was the last time I remember chats with enough people and going more than once a week. But I also remember that more chats usually meant I just read pweb instead of posting as much. Not that I post anything really now, but it's still more than it used to be!

I miss the actual philoticweb website, as well. I loved trying to make that timeline make sense in my head. It'd be pretty cool if it still existed. I'm not really sure, but I think a pweb project would be pretty fun! It'd have to be interesting to get people involved, but when most people invest time in a project, they usually want to see it finish (unless it just sort of keeps going and dies..). Like, Alea's "A Day in the Life of _____" thing definitely got people to do things, and it was interesting. If we could find a project that was like that, but more integrating and a bit longer-lasting. I don't know.. I like projects!

Would the Facebook Connect thing only post something to your news feed if it were about one of your facebook friends? Or would it do everything on the site? If it were just your friends, then it would just be like when a friend posts a note, which can easily be ignored or clicked on! Though all of my facebook friends from this site are inactive, so it really wouldn't matter..

[Jayelle]

I think pweb goes through cycles. Yes, it's slowing down. OSC sucks these days and this site sucks too, but there are people who've stuck around and made connections.

Ever been to a party where there's a great conversation going on in an uncomfortable place? Say, you're gathering in the hallway and there aren't enough chairs and so someone suggests a move to the living room. Chances are, the great conversation you were having dies. Because that's what happens when you try to keep something going in a new place.

Anyway, Facebook has too much personal information to be comfortable for me to move there- I let people I've known for awhile on pweb be my FB friend, but I'm not going to expose my stuff to newbies.

[CezeN]

I'm all for scheduled pwebchats! The chat used to be pretty active, even during the summer, if I remember correctly. 2007 was the last time I remember chats with enough people and going more than once a week. But I also remember that more chats usually meant I just read pweb instead of posting as much. Not that I post anything really now, but it's still more than it used to be!

I miss the actual philoticweb website, as well. I loved trying to make that timeline make sense in my head. It'd be pretty cool if it still existed. I'm not really sure, but I think a pweb project would be pretty fun! It'd have to be interesting to get people involved, but when most people invest time in a project, they usually want to see it finish (unless it just sort of keeps going and dies..). Like, Alea's "A Day in the Life of _____" thing definitely got people to do things, and it was interesting. If we could find a project that was like that, but more integrating and a bit longer-lasting. I don't know.. I like projects!

Would the Facebook Connect thing only post something to your news feed if it were about one of your facebook friends? Or would it do everything on the site? If it were just your friends, then it would just be like when a friend posts a note, which can easily be ignored or clicked on! Though all of my facebook friends from this site are inactive, so it really wouldn't matter..

^^^^I agree about scheduling Pweb chats.

[Eaquae Legit]

Anyway, Facebook has too much personal information to be comfortable for me to move there- I let people I've known for awhile on pweb be my FB friend, but I'm not going to expose my stuff to newbies.

Exactly this.

[locke]

my facebook use has fallen off a cliff since using pweb more. :-p

[Rei]

I'm with locke. I've been using facebook less and turning my attentions back to pweb and lj as facebook doesn't actually do much of anything I want, whereas pweb and lj most certainly do.

[Young Val]

I just don't think you can force activity on the board, not by moving the activity elsewhere or lamenting about it on the board itself. Pweb will pick up again eventually; it always does. In the meantime, I'd rather people post when they have something to say, rather than because posting or chats have been scheduled for them.

[mr_thebrain]

I agree about missing the old site. there was a lot more information and cool stuff that we lost with the first crash that while we'll never get it back, there's no reason we can't build it new. there are probably a few people that are trusted members by now that are emotionally invested in this site we all call home that also have the ability to build websites that should they be given some information, they could work on the site. I know i've had professional web design contracts and i'm sure others have as well. as long as they don't touch the bulletin boards (as they have a tendency to crash) we should be ok. We could host the bulletin board and the rest of the site separately maybe, and have anyone that wants to work on content contribute.

i think that with a little work this site could have enough information on it that it could be taken seriously again. if that should happen, we would probably get more people to come and stay. i don't think a merge with facebook is the way to go though.

[Gravity Defier]

brain for Pweb president!


In other words, I agree with pretty much everything he's said. Alex and Kelly, too. It would be helpful to have a person who cares about it in charge, old site stuff would help lure people, Facebook has gotten on my nerves, and I'd rather people be here because they want to be here, not because it's shoved down their throats.

That last point is especially important to me. I don't want people here who would rather not be here but stay or come back out of a feeling of duty/obligation/guilt. I may never know that's why they're here but all the same, I want to be surrounded by people who are drawn here for their own reasons.

[Jebus]

Yea, you guys need to post more, I can't do all the work around here.

[locke]

Jebus returned!

welcome back you Irish knave!

I think we need a thread/poll asking whether school or significant others are the primary suspected reason people go absent from pweb. :-p

[Jebus]

Eh, you know me, I waft in, I waft out, like some kind of lone wolf animal type thing but really handsome and with lasers shooting out my eyes and invisibility... or something.

[Wind Swept]

I really only started the thread to get Jebus to post more.

[wigginboy]

OK, so I don't really fit into the group here but that aside, the subject line and subsequent thread material seem to be somewhat biased. It seems that the only 'community' that is dying is a clique of members who are becoming busier and more mature in their personal lives. If no one has noticed, the previous two incarnations of Pweb have spawned a new group of fans/members who are in fact keeping the community here quite active. To me it seems that some of the 'oldbies' are just disappointed that a newer generation of readers is beginning to dominate this board. Not all of us (though most of you wouldn't consider me part of you even though I've been here five and a half years) Pweb lifers share this sentiment of course, as illustrated in this thread, but there are some who seem to think that Pweb is not for everyone. Pweb isn't dying as a community, certain parts of it are just becoming stale. This is certainly a place where people can come learn all sorts of things about the Enderverse, but I think a big reason it seems to be stagnating is that this clique i speak of only seems to be interested in talking amongst themselves and there are a lot of injokes that many noobs don't understand. This can be intimidating to new members of a community if they feel their opinion does not count or will not be heard. Some people are good at insinuating themselves into a community like this, but other can be very put off and may not come back. So I suggest to those who think that this board is dying that they take a look and see how many noobs there are posting in the Ender sections and rethink their hypothesis.

BTW, for anyone wondering why you've never seen me beyond my join date on this version, I joined what you all call Pweb II in February 2004 as beans_shadow7.


EDIT: PS, Wheres my custom thingy under my avatar? Or is this only for those that 'fit in'?

[Gravity Defier]

I think that whole argument would have had legs to stand on years ago. Now I genuinely think -even taking into consideration the entire site and not just Milagre, plus all the newbies and surviving oldies alike- this board is slower than molasses and getting worse. I think each time we have a slow cycle, we lose a few more who don't get replaced, then we speed up and some may come back for a short time, but always fewer than those who left and it's rare to see them stick around long-term.

While I do think Chris was right to say Pweb is reluctantly dying, I don't think there's a quick fix or a slow one for that matter. Unless a movie comes out and we have something that even halfway resembles the site as it was, neither of which I have any faith in anymore, let alone the possibility of both.

Feel free to disagree.

[Boothby]

The fix is simple.

The film actually has to go into preproduction.

Then those of us here (well, at least ME) will start coming back and posting. Others will read the books, see the links to us and toe Hatrack, and start joining and posting.

I think the reason most of the conversations are dying is that we've all taken our main, common interest, and beaten it to death years ago.

New life has to come from OUTSIDE P-Web.

[Mich]

New life has to come from OUTSIDE P-Web.

Mmm, I sense a First Rule of Thermodynamics analogy.

On another note: holy wow, it's Boothby!

[Boothby]

I lurk every month or so.

Mainly to see if there's any activity on the new books (especially the Companion, since I wrote a bunch of tech articles for it), or on the movie (which now sounds less and less likely... )

[starlooker]

re: Wigginboy and custom avatar thingy --

It was an April Fool's thing. People who were actively posting around April 1st got them, and then I think they were originally going to be removed, but we liked them so much we begged to keep them. I don't think there's an official policy on getting one, other than posting somewhat regularly and letting the mods know you'd like one.

~~~

I do tend to agree that "new life" has to come from the outside and that Pweb is one of the most territorial boards I've ever been on which makes it that much harder for "new life" to grow. Has been that way since I first joined in 2002 -- I very nearly got scared away myself.

I don't know. The slowing cycle doesn't really sadden me all that much. I'm happy when people post, particularly if they haven't been posting that much, and I go through ups and downs of my own with it. It's been a big part of my life over the past several years -- sometimes a huge part -- and I doubt that I'd ever completely sever ties. On the other hand, my life is entering a new chapter now and I feel my need for a place like this waning, much as I love the people who make it up.

[Jayelle]

Realistically, I think forums are dying all over the internet - it's not the popular way to communicate any more. There are ones just like this one with people who joined in the early 00's and now are only there because of the friends they've made, not because they care so much about a certain tv show, or an author, or a band.

Pweb is what it is. I think this is just a down cycle in the same way we've had them before. I do think that it'll never be as vibrant as it once was. I have very little hope for the EG movie at this point, and even if it does happen, is a forum really the place where people will flock?

I, for one, am not leaving this place. I will check it frequently as long as it exists and post as often as I want. I am sad that there are people who are just gone for good. I miss them, since I haven't made many connections outside of what goes on here - I don't chat on AIM, I don't call anyone.
Aside from a bit of Facebook and one meeting with EL and Rei, all my interactions with you people is here in this space. So, I'll stay. I'll stay and hope that others do the same.

As for inside jokes and exclusion, I get that there are those who feel that way - I think all forums are like that (at least many of the ones I've encountered), and I've been there. I've posted and felt like no one cared in those places.
But I can't erase the fact that this is the only place I can come to and tell about how I saw a bunch of kids selling limeade or an Ewok sticker, or a sign that said "Chico" and it reminded me of this place. Inside jokes are just a part of friendship and I like the ones I've built here. You guys have affected (effected? damnit) my life in alot of ways, and I'm happy that I came here 8 years ago.

[wigginboy]

I agree with Jayelle. It is just like the peak and trough cycles of a capitalist economy. It is just like the recession our world is experiencing right now. I also have to agree with Boothby. If the darn movie would just go into production, it would draw a heck of a lot more people here. Unfortunately, the Ender world seems to be stagnating and it is now up to us fans to start promoting the series and get more people reading and in tuern, more peopkle on Pweb. But at the same time, this board ius stagnating because the people who once made it fun are now getting on with their lives. It is like was said previously, the people who joined earlier this decade and were part of things, even more so than myself, are now older, starting families, beginning careers after college, and what made this board fun is now no longer here. So it is up to both groups, the oldbies and the noobs, to start revitalizing this board if we still want it here in a few years. Those who only post in Milagre, check out some of the lesser used sections. those who only post in Enderverse, start posting elsewhere as well. The Religion and Science sections are growing stale. If you have an opinion, let us know. that is the point of a bulletin board like this, is it not? and for those that feel shy about posting, tough, post anyway, like i said, that is the point.

[Gravity Defier]

So it is up to both groups, the oldbies and the noobs, to start revitalizing this board if we still want it here in a few years...If you have an opinion, let us know.

It's my opinion that you, and others like you, need to get revitalizing then.

ETA: If you picked staying quiet as the response to feeling like you don't fit in, you went about it the wrong way. The only way to become part of the crowd is to insert yourself. Trust me, I still have PMs and chats saved that made it more than clear that I was unwelcome when I showed up and I sort of forced myself upon them anyway.

[wigginboy]

I didnt say I was perfect or better than anyone else. I didnt say YOU people all need to start posting more and I will just stay where I am. I said all of us need to start posting if people are so concerned about the board dying. I did not say i post more than anyone so I am Mr. Philotic. All I am saying is if we want the board to continue, we all have to chip in. I post fairly regularly, though fairly spaced apart. I might not be in the top fifty posters, but I'm fifty one, so that counts.

[Jayelle]

I still have PMs and chats saved that made it more than clear that I was unwelcome when I showed up and I sort of forced myself upon them anyway.

*guilt* *guilt* *so so so much guilt*

[wigginboy]

Of 2704 registered users on this site, 2507 have posted under ten times. That makes it roughly 93 percent of registered users who have not posted ten times or more. Just thought someone might be interested. I imagine a lot of bots have infiltrated security, but thats still pretty bad.

[Gravity Defier]

I still have PMs and chats saved that made it more than clear that I was unwelcome when I showed up and I sort of forced myself upon them anyway.

*guilt* *guilt* *so so so much guilt*

Err, sorry, that wasn't what I was intending to do.

I was just trying to make the point that some of what is being said sounds a lot like excuses. Or I was just more stubborn and thick-headed than your average newbie.

I keep the stuff around for a good laugh every so often. I mean, you have to admit, the whole sworn enemy thing is funny.

Wait, is that an in-joke? Uh-oh.