Bisexuality and homosexuality the same thing?

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
User avatar
shadow-petra
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:59 pm
Title: Totoro To-to-ro
Location: Boston, MA

Bisexuality and homosexuality the same thing?

Postby shadow-petra » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:47 pm

I promise you this is not as ignorant a question as it seems. And I promise you this is not a joke, so read on. Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top!

I work at a place where my 21 year old coworkers think i'm 22(really off) because of the way I talk apparently... :roll: My guy friends visit me and my coworker sees them. He comments "omg, they're so gay!" And I said that one of them is bisexual. He said it's the same thing as being gay. So this becomes a heated argument that turns into a gendered divided mess in the store where the girls said it's different and the guys said it's the same.

This question is now the topic of my 'gender in a global perspective' paper. So if you have time, could you help me out and take this survey?

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=H ... dggw_3d_3d

I'm posting the survey up at other places, and things get kinda meshed together. But I kinda wanna know what you guys think. So...what do you think?
June 2004...Gawd I'm old...

User avatar
Gov%ShakespeareCol
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:26 am

Postby Gov%ShakespeareCol » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:04 pm

Done. I always like helping out with research projects.

User avatar
shadow-petra
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:59 pm
Title: Totoro To-to-ro
Location: Boston, MA

Postby shadow-petra » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm

Thanks so much! me too...I don't know why, it's just fun :D
June 2004...Gawd I'm old...

User avatar
thoughtreader
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:00 pm
Title: will wrestle you to the ground
First Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Location: Portland OR

Postby thoughtreader » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 pm

Done

User avatar
Mich
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2948
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:58 am
Title: T.U.R.T.L.E. Power
First Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Location: Land o' Ports
Contact:

Postby Mich » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:20 pm

Responded!

As for discussion, I'm really not the kind of person to spark such a debate, or to even attempt to continue it, but I've always viewed sexual orientation just like sexual fetishism. As it's commonly said, "everyone has their own thing," and those "things" can vary extremely widely. If it's, say, not uncommon for large amounts of people to find images of feet sexually gratifying, why isn't one person finding the same sex attractive the same thing? This is purely my own speculation, as I have a fascination of studying the odds and ends of fetishes, and I am myself not homo- or bisexual, so I can't even study that, nor do I have many openly gay friends.

In any case, if one views homosexuality and heterosexuality as dual sides of a sexual fetish coin, it's not so hard to imagine someone who is "turned on" by both sides of the coin.

Be warned, I don't really want to argue in a debate, as I find internet debates impossible and tiring, I just wanted to share what I've been thinking about for the past few years and possibly gain some additional insight.
Shell the unshellable, crawl the uncrawlible.

Row--row.

User avatar
Gov%ShakespeareCol
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:26 am

Postby Gov%ShakespeareCol » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:27 pm

On of the funniest ways I have ever heard bisexuality described was something I overheard at a bar. This guy said, "I don't really think of myself as being bi. I am just very sexual, and not very picky."

Petra456
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 2446
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:48 pm
Title: Actually, I'm Fred (and a monster)
First Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Singing on Krikkit.
Contact:

Postby Petra456 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:05 pm

Done, glad to help Jas : )
Member since March 16th, 2004.

And there will come a time, you'll see, with no more tears.
And love will not break your heart, but dismiss your fears.
Get over your hill and see what you find there,
With grace in your heart and flowers in your hair.

User avatar
Rei
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3068
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:31 pm
Title: Fides quaerens intellectum
First Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Location: Between the lines

Postby Rei » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:40 pm

I started doing it, but I find myself not able to answer according to how I feel about the issue with the options given.

The main reason for this is that I tend to view the matter of sexual preference as a spectrum as opposed to the polar approach that is so often taken. It isn't a matter that someone is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual; it's a matter of a scale with heterosexual at one end and homosexual at the other, and an individual can fall anywhere along that line, closer to or further from a given pole.


As for whether it is different for a guy or a girl to be bisexual, I think that is in part due to an undercurrent of sexism in society: it's okay for a woman to act like a man, but it is not okay for a man to lower himself to the status or behaviour of a woman. This is related to why I see girls kiss on the cheek, hug, and show other signs of affection far more often than guys. Nobody blinks at the former, but frequently the latter may be seen as a sign of femininity.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
~Blaise Pascal


私は。。。誰?

Dernhelm

User avatar
starlooker
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3823
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm
Title: Dr. Mom
First Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Home. With cats who have names.

Postby starlooker » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:32 pm

There are lots of theoretical models of sexuality that have posited a continuum of same/other sex attraction. However, when analyzed statistically, what actually appears to be a more valid model is rather than having a semantic differential sort of scale like this:

Male -------------------------------------- Female

(where a given person falls somewhere on the line between the two)

It actually appears that male and female each have their own scales and degrees of attraction, so it looks more like this:

Male
Low --------------------------- High

Female
Low ---------------------------High

(where a person is ranked somewhere on both scales)

Also, the question of attraction is more complicated than simple physicality. A model I'm somewhat familiar with describes us as being attracted to people to varying degrees on physical, emotional, and romantic levels, each of which have their own attributes and may or may not overlap. So, a person could be physically attracted to members of one sex, but more emotionally/romantically attracted to members of the other sex. (For example, "romantic friendships" between women that were fairly well known - and probably not sexual - in the 18th century.)

Even though it would seem that bisexuality would be less stigmatized than a gay-lesbian identity, in some ways I think it's the opposite. A lot of straight people tend to take any hint of same-sex attraction as meaning the person is "one of them," and ignore nuance. There's also quite a bit of prejudice in some gay/lesbian communities regarding people who are bi and thus can "pass." Also, some people who eventually identify as gay/lesbian do go through a period of time where they try to convince themselves they are bi, and so may think that anyone who identifies as bi is going through something similar.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

User avatar
Rei
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3068
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:31 pm
Title: Fides quaerens intellectum
First Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Location: Between the lines

Postby Rei » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:46 pm

That scaling method makes a lot more sense, Kirsten. Thanks for pointing that out.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
~Blaise Pascal


私は。。。誰?

Dernhelm

User avatar
locke
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 3046
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:07 pm
Contact:

Postby locke » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:03 pm

I was going to say continuum, then I read Kirstens thing, which makes more sense than a single line continuum.

I also think she's correct in that bisexual people probably are stigmatized by both communities, and thus there's likely to be fewer people who self identify as bisexual, because they'll eventually select into one community or the other. Also there's her nice summation of the distinction between different modes of attraction.

I think I heard somewhere that we're starting to see this play out in interesting ways in younger generations, where some girls are opting into homosexual relationships during different periods of their lives, although they may still be attracted physically primarily to men, the homosexual relationship provides a different level of emotional and spiritual fulfillment for them. It could also be argued this is true of men, as there's the rather common, if tragic, story, of men who are married with families only to leave them at some point to 'come out' and begin a new homosexual lifestyle. Perhaps because it's men, it's always assumed this is providing physical fulfillment they found lacking with women, which is sort of the opposite assumption we make of women in similar situations. A sexist conception, for certain, to say that most bisexual men only use to term/identity as a waystation before coming out completely, while most bisexual women are thought to be more in line with the 'attracted to both' perception of the term.

I think there's a strong cultural element in play, there's a certain level of acceptance (that's growing) of women having homosexual intercourse, while there is much less acceptance of men having homosexual intercourse. This is in part due to the influence of accessible hardcore pornography from the internet. It's a bit disconcerting to think, but the prevalence of anal sex in heterosexual pornography could in fact be reducing 'ick factor' towards anal sex in male homosexual relationships within our culture and society. So I would say there's also much less room for men to have relationships with both men and women in our society/culture than there is for women to have relationships with both men and women in our society/culture. I am thinking of monogamous relationships here, not three-way relationships. To clarify, I imagine it's much less disconcerting for most people my age for a girl to go from dating a guy, to dating a girl, to dating a guy again than it is for a guy to go from dating a girl to dating a gay to dating a girl again.

I also think there's an element in play in terms of how we as individuals want to define things. We want to know if someone is a potential mate or not or if they are competition or not for mates. Bisexuals confuse our system of sorting out people, and dammit, something primitive in our brains wants clarity from others on that point.

For example, look at the movie "In and Out" here's a person attracted to women, about to marry a woman but because he displays characteristics and behaviors stereotypical to homosexuals everyone around him wants him to be homosexual because it's easier for them. Eventually the group will of the community wins out and he "discovers" within himself that he was gay all along. Everyone is happy, presumably, he's now been sorted out into one group or another, no longer an annoying, frustrating anomaly.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

User avatar
shadow-petra
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:59 pm
Title: Totoro To-to-ro
Location: Boston, MA

Postby shadow-petra » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:00 pm

Yeah, I kind of agree to the Kinsey scale. I think it's a more general scale than the one Kristen provided...or is it the same? I think the scale here is more specific, which I think I agree more with.
June 2004...Gawd I'm old...

User avatar
starlooker
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3823
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm
Title: Dr. Mom
First Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Home. With cats who have names.

Postby starlooker » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:59 am

The Kinsey scale has its place, and it makes sense to people, generally. It may work as a continuum of identification, rather than attraction. I'm just pointing out, when they've tried to verify it statistically, it's not the model that makes sense. And, personally, the kinsey model made sense to me until someone showed me the second type of model. Something just clicked and I was like, "oh, of course."

(Also, I'm really not a fan of putting men and women at opposite ends of a single pole. Gender, gender identification, and attraction are all a lot more fluid than that.)
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

Eddie Pinz
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:27 pm
Title: Ganon's Bane

Postby Eddie Pinz » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:25 am

To clarify, I imagine it's much less disconcerting for most people my age for a girl to go from dating a guy, to dating a girl, to dating a guy again than it is for a guy to go from dating a girl to dating a gay to dating a girl again.
I really hope this is a slip up, because it really made me giggle. I did a double take while reading it.

User avatar
shadow-petra
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:59 pm
Title: Totoro To-to-ro
Location: Boston, MA

Postby shadow-petra » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:43 am

The Kinsey scale has its place, and it makes sense to people, generally. It may work as a continuum of identification, rather than attraction. I'm just pointing out, when they've tried to verify it statistically, it's not the model that makes sense. And, personally, the kinsey model made sense to me until someone showed me the second type of model. Something just clicked and I was like, "oh, of course."

(Also, I'm really not a fan of putting men and women at opposite ends of a single pole. Gender, gender identification, and attraction are all a lot more fluid than that.)
Do you happen to know the name of this scale? Because it does make more sense than the Kinsey scale.

Hehe, Locke has his ways :lol:
June 2004...Gawd I'm old...

User avatar
locke
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 3046
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:07 pm
Contact:

Postby locke » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:40 pm

sweet catch on the slip up. I reread that post last night (I wrote it while busy at work over something like an hour or so, kept coming back to it) and didn't catch the slip. I did however think that the post was rambly, run on and semi incoherent (at least lacking in clarity). Heh.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

human.
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:02 pm
Title: pequenino

Postby human. » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:27 pm

On of the funniest ways I have ever heard bisexuality described was something I overheard at a bar. This guy said, "I don't really think of myself as being bi. I am just very sexual, and not very picky."
I'm bisexual, and I think that's a great way to put it, at least from my perspective. I'm attracted to both men and women, but in different ways, I suppose. Some of the differences come from appearance or society, though. The penis is attractive for men, and breasts for women. They each have different characteristics that belong solely to them, but I love a beautiful face no matter what. I still find that I can see settling down with a man much more plausible than settling down with a woman, but I'm not sure if that's just because society has always painted the picture of a fulfilled life being that of a husband, a wife, their children (and some money, too). It also might be because I have only ever dated males, and will have been dating one for the past year and a half very soon.

So maybe I am attracted more to men when adding in the emotional and mental ties along with the physical ones, yet I still greatly enjoy fantasizing about women, talking with women and being touched by women, just as I do with men.

To me, there's really no difference between being homosexual and bisexual. But then again, there's no difference to me between being bisexual and heterosexual, either. I enjoy watching a man and woman flirting just as much as I enjoy a woman and a woman flirting and a man and a man flirting. (The History Boys is such a good movie.)

I do enjoy a girl-girl couple more than a guy-guy couple, but that's because I'm a girl. It's harder to enjoy the things that aren't possible to you. =]

Anyway, I like what that guy said, though I still think of myself as bisexual, I feel like it's a very accurate description. At least, for me.

anonshadow
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Postby anonshadow » Mon May 04, 2009 11:14 pm

Honestly, in many ways, I feel like homosexuality is much more similar to heterosexuality than to bisexuality. Bisexuality indicates a wider range, where homo/heterosexuality indicates that you have fewer options. That said, I think that people generally exist on a continuum, but for the purposes of this conversation...



User avatar
Eskarina
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:50 pm

Postby Eskarina » Fri May 08, 2009 8:06 am

I still tend to go rather with minding what someone above me has termed as romantic attraction, the ability to form relationships with people of said gender, in efforts to find out how I'd label person this and that.

I believe where most of the people are bisexual based on physical/sexual attraction and can act on it sooner or later, I don't think the same percentage of people would be capable of forming more intimate ties with people of both genders.

Still, this is a bit complicated imo, as physical/sexual attraction greatly shapes the creation of other ones and influences their appearance furthermore.

So no, I think bisexuality and homosexuality are two different things, I just don't think in matters *irl* that often.


Return to “Milagre Town Square”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Amazon [Bot] and 46 guests