Existence

[starfox]

I have a question.
Let's say a tree exists in my front yard. However, it is invisible, and doesn't cast any shade. Also, it isn't subject to the tree exclusion principle, so other trees can be taking up the same space as it. You can't cut it down, either. In fact, you can't see, hear, feel, smell, or taste my tree. It also has no measurable mass, emits no radiation, or interacts with the world in any way. So, my tree has no influence in space whatsoever. Despite this, I continue to assert my tree exists. Does it?

[Rei]

There are better ways to express that you do not understand how it is that anyone believes in a higher being, and would people mind sharing what it is that draws them to believe in a being who appears to have no measurable presence than a brief parable written to demonstrate how stupid someone must be to believe in a higher being. Not only is it short-sighted, narrow-minded, and excessively simplistic, it's offensive.

[starfox]

There are better ways to express that you do not understand how it is that anyone believes in a higher being,

Wow, I didn't say anything about a higher being.

a brief parable written to demonstrate how stupid someone must be to believe in a higher being.

Did I say anyone is stupid? Apparently you think it's stupid to believe in my tree.

It sounds like you were trying to take offense rather than consider what I wrote.

[elfprince13]

I have a question.
Let's say a tree exists in my front yard. However, it is invisible, and doesn't cast any shade. Also, it isn't subject to the tree exclusion principle, so other trees can be taking up the same space as it. You can't cut it down, either. In fact, you can't see, hear, feel, smell, or taste my tree. It also has no measurable mass, emits no radiation, or interacts with the world in any way. So, my tree has no influence in space whatsoever. Despite this, I continue to assert my tree exists. Does it?

It would be a strange assertion to make if you had never interacted with this tree. On the other hand your tree not choosing to interact with you in no way excludes the possibility of it choosing to interact with someone else, and if it did interact with that someone else (or even someone elses), you would be reliant on the word of those someones, and your evaluation of their trustworthiness for your knowledge of the tree.

[Syphon the Sun]

Oh, please, starfox. You know exactly what you were doing and pretending you weren't isn't just silly, it's downright misleading.

If you actually want a decent discussion around here, you might try a bit of honesty.

[elfprince13]

Oh, please, starfox. You know exactly what you were doing and pretending you weren't isn't just silly, it's downright misleading.

If you actually want a decent discussion around here, you might try a bit of honesty.

Particularly since it was a straw man, in that at least one of the premises (not interacting with the material universe) of his rather unique tree is inconsistent with a non-deistic view of God.

[starfox]

Oh crap, you guys got me. Yep, just a troll, coming in with my short-sighted, narrow-minded, excessively simplistic, offensive hypothetical situations. Roll your eyes at me and assume I'm being disingenuous. Once you figured out my argument, you even spotted the fallacy! There could be no other possible subject I'm trying to get at.

Well, you guys must already know what I'm about to say, since you're all so eager to put words in my mouth, but here goes. What I was actually getting at is comments like this one, from the body and spirituality thread:

my worldview doesn't require the entire universe to consist of the material world, or expect the study of the material world to be able to explain the spiritual.

I've heard similar things elsewhere, or at least putting the "spiritual" in opposition to the "physical." If you define something that has no effect on the physical world, does it really exist?

But you guys don't care about that, do you, Rei, elfprince, Syphon? You dismissed me so quickly you already knew what I was going to say.

[elfprince13]

or at least putting the "spiritual" in opposition to the "physical."

This is a mistake of both physicalist and gnostic worldviews.

If you define something that has no effect on the physical world, does it really exist?

That's a good question for theoretical mathematicians But like I said, being separate from the physical world doesn't mean it can't have an effect, and obviously a careful observer would be able to see when such events did occur (like our friend having 3 feet of his intestine healed overnight through prayer), but they're also not repeatable events in the sense of an experiment. The closest scientific metaphor would be astronomy where our knowledge is not built upon being able to repeatedly cause stars to go supernova and measure the resultant blasts of energy, but rather many centuries of careful observation and induction based on the phenomena we have observed.

[starfox]

But like I said, being separate from the physical world doesn't mean it can't have an effect

Yes, it does. If there is an observable effect, do you deny it is taking place in the physical world?

obviously a careful observer would be able to see when such events did occur (like our friend having 3 feet of his intestine healed overnight through prayer)

I think it's a dubious claim that prayer healed your friend, but that's not the point of this. The minute you claim the "spiritual world" is affecting your friend's body, it's now fair game in the physical world.

they're also not repeatable events in the sense of an experiment. The closest scientific metaphor would be astronomy where our knowledge is not built upon being able to repeatedly cause stars to go supernova and measure the resultant blasts of energy, but rather many centuries of careful observation and induction based on the phenomena we have observed.

I think you're a little confused about astronomy. A falsifiable hypothesis is put forward, and people look for evidence to refute it. How would you falsify a hypothesis about something you can't observe?

[elfprince13]

Yes, it does. If there is an observable effect, do you deny it is taking place in the physical world?

the effect is taking place in the physical world, yes, but that doesn't mean it originated here.

I think it's a dubious claim that prayer healed your friend, but that's not the point of this. The minute you claim the "spiritual world" is affecting your friend's body, it's now fair game in the physical world.

Obviously the effect is observable, but how long do you think that interference lasted for? How long does an undersea earthquake, that causes a tsunami that travels for hundreds of miles, happen for? Imagine for a moment that the submarine had never been invented, so we had no way of observing one of these earthquakes in effect. We'd still be able to induce that *something* we couldn't perceive had exerted the force to move all that water (where we could see it).

I think you're a little confused about astronomy. A falsifiable hypothesis is put forward, and people look for evidence to refute it.

That's pretty much how theology works, with a little more dependence on historical records.

How would you falsify a hypothesis about something you can't observe?

We can't observe the fusion of increasingly heavy particles millions of light years away, we can only observe the EM radiation that reaches us and induce happened.

In the following story, the people of Israel are presented with 2 mutually exclusive hypotheses: either Baal is God or Yahweh is God. Elijah devises an experiment of sorts to answer the question.

After a long time, in the third year, the word of the LORD came to Elijah: "Go and present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the land." 2 So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab.
Now the famine was severe in Samaria, 3 and Ahab had summoned Obadiah, who was in charge of his palace. (Obadiah was a devout believer in the LORD. 4 While Jezebel was killing off the LORD's prophets, Obadiah had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each, and had supplied them with food and water.) 5 Ahab had said to Obadiah, "Go through the land to all the springs and valleys. Maybe we can find some grass to keep the horses and mules alive so we will not have to kill any of our animals." 6 So they divided the land they were to cover, Ahab going in one direction and Obadiah in another.

7 As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, "Is it really you, my lord Elijah?"

8 "Yes," he replied. "Go tell your master, 'Elijah is here.' "

9 "What have I done wrong," asked Obadiah, "that you are handing your servant over to Ahab to be put to death? 10 As surely as the LORD your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you. 11 But now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.' 12 I don't know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you when I leave you. If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn't find you, he will kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth. 13 Haven't you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the LORD ? I hid a hundred of the LORD's prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water. 14 And now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.' He will kill me!"

15 Elijah said, "As the LORD Almighty lives, whom I serve, I will surely present myself to Ahab today."
Elijah on Mount Carmel
16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When he saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"

18 "I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals. 19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."

20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."
But the people said nothing.

22 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God."
Then all the people said, "What you say is good."

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy (the actual phrase used here meant business of the bowel moving variety), or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which was in ruins. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs (about 4 gallons) of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."

34 "Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again."

38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"

Several hundred years earlier, Gideon goes a step further and asks God for repeated proofs that the voice telling him to lead Israel into war really is God and not just an evil spirit trying to get him killed.

36 Gideon said to God, "If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised- 37 look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said." 38 And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew—a bowlful of water.

39 Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew." 40 That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew.

And finally, a couple days ago I posted a more modern example from my dad's life in our related topic.

My dad at one point during college felt that God was calling him to give up downhill skiing (at that point he was basically centering his life around it), right after he'd invested in a whole pile of new equipment. He prayed and told God he was willing to sell the equipment and give up skiing if God would provide someone to buy the equipment. 15 minutes later, someone my dad had never met before walked in to his dorm room, looked around at the ski equipment, and was like "I've been thinking about getting in to skiing, do you know where I could get some equipment" and of course my dad sold it to him on the spot. His custom foam-injected boots (meaning molded specifically for his feet) even fit the guy perfectly, and my dad never saw him again.

[Eaquae Legit]

Substitute "pink unicorn" for "tree" and you have the favourite "gotcha" proof of every adolescent atheist on the internet. It's not unreasonable to think that someone who posts about insensible trees is playing the same old tired gotcha game as the unicornists. If you want to discuss something genuinely different, I suggest you find a new opening salvo.

[starlooker]

*Raises hand timidly*

I liked the tree and the question.

(Also, personally, I don't think the pink invisible unicorn and it's usual question is that stupid/pointless/etc. of a question that it deserves to be dismissed while making assertations about the age/intelligence/hostile attitude of the person asking. And while I can understand why the question has irritating "adolescent atheist" connotations for some, I really do not think the question itself is inherently disrespectful.)

As for the real question, I am eagerly awaiting to see if Descartes' work is replicated here.

(Although, I would hope it is replicated without reference to the pinneal gland as the point in which the spiritual/physical world interact.)

[Eaquae Legit]

It might be a good question. It might even be important. But it IS disingenuous to begin a discussion like that and get upset when others respond to the traditional unicorn. I'm not interested in the unicorn debate right now, but good on others if they are. Hopefully it will move beyond the invisible tree question (which is what I meant by adolescent - there is more to atheism than this single question).