Abortion

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Abortion

Postby daPyr0x » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:08 pm

Can someone please explain to me the emotional significance of having an abortion for a woman?

Perhaps I do not understand because I don't have a uterus, perhaps because I'm a callous and insensitive ass; but I just don't see an abortion as being a huge emotionally scarring event. I've been made aware that, at least in some situations, I am wrong.


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Postby steph » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:47 pm

Disclaimer: I have never had an abortion, so my feelings and response on this matter will be stemming from my experiences being pregnant and a mother.

First off, women are emotional beings. (But you already knew that!) Everything that happens with my body is very attached to my emotions and the things associated with baring children are even more so, mostly because there are so many hormones connected to all things reproduction.

Whether you give birth to the child you are pregnant with or not, your life changes forever when your body undergoes the hormonal switch associated with pregnancy. That is your child, whether you choose to give birth, have an abortion, or give the baby up for adoption. It's your child and your body knows it. At least for me, it's not possible for my body to forget something that was so much a part of me.

In my experience, I've had significant emotional scaring due to the fact that I have not birthed either of my children vaginally. (I had c-sections with both my boys.) On top of that, I struggle with having enough breast milk to feed my children. My hormones and emotions take over and tell me that my children are better off with someone else. If I can't birth them and I can't feed them, I can't do anything for them that someone else couldn't do instead. Is this rational thinking? Heck no! Are the feelings very real to me? You'd better believe it. It drives my husband CRAZY! But he does all he can to sympathize with me because he realizes how incredibly real the emotional scaring is in my life, even though it makes no sense to him at all.

What I'm trying to get at is that your very first statement is very true. Perhaps you do not understand because you don't have a uterus. Even though you can't understand, you can sympathize by admitting that you can't understand and being supportive anyway. You'll NEVER be able to empathize (Heck, even I can't empathize with abortion. I've never had to go through that trial), but you can make a choice to not be insensitive.

I hope relating my experiences can help you get a better grasp on this topic. Just accept that it IS a huge deal and tell yourself that you're grateful you don't have the hormones of a woman.

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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:25 pm

daPyr0x wrote:I just don't see an abortion as being a huge emotionally scarring event.


Besides the hormonal changes Steph mentioned, I imagine the situations under which women who get abortions got pregnant in the first place plays a large part in the scarring.
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Postby neo-dragon » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:02 pm

Hell, I'm just a man and even I can imagine how choosing to end a potential human life growing inside your own body might be upsetting, regardless of the circumstances.
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Postby lyons24000 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:25 pm

I concur with Neo. Just knowing what I did would scar me for the rest of my life.
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Postby Luet » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:23 pm

Even though I can't imagine making the choice myself, I would never judge someone else for having made it. I don't think anyone makes the choice lightly (maybe a rare case). So regardless of how sure they were that it was the right choice, the knowledge for the rest of their life that they could have a child of X age, or seeing children that would be the age of said child, etc., I would think that could be very emotional.
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Postby Mich » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:31 pm

Luet wrote:Even though I can't imagine making the choice myself, I would never judge someone else for having made it. I don't think anyone makes the choice lightly (maybe a rare case). So regardless of how sure they were that it was the right choice, the knowledge for the rest of their life that they could have a child of X age, or seeing children that would be the age of said child, etc., I would think that could be very emotional.

I completely agree. Not being a woman, I would never feel that I would be able to completely weigh both sides of the argument, but I would never condemn someone for making the choice, assuming that there is no way that I know they are making it lightly. However, if the woman in question was quite flippant with her lifestyle and she told me "well, if x happens, I'll just get an abortion, like the previous ten times," I might condemn her for her choice of lifestyle and attitude, but that's more condemning her reasons for making such a choice, rather than the eventual conclusion.
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Postby daPyr0x » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:38 pm

Gravity Defier wrote:
daPyr0x wrote:I just don't see an abortion as being a huge emotionally scarring event.


Besides the hormonal changes Steph mentioned, I imagine the situations under which women who get abortions got pregnant in the first place plays a large part in the scarring.


I would agree with that. I ask because the situation that is most relevant to me does not have scarring circumstances, at least not regarding how the pregnancy occurred.

Alright, well, maybe I really am just a cold, bitter, and insensitive ass for not getting it; however exclaiming that in any way really isn't answering the question I posed.

I want to know what it feels like. I want to know that seeing children that would be the same age as yours is traumatic. I want to know why grief counseling has women associate names with their unborn children and hold eulogies for them. I want to know what that situation is like, because the only "pregnancies" I've been a part of were faked, or were just scares.
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Postby neo-dragon » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:06 pm

I don't understand how you expect to "know" these things. Someone can tell you how traumatic it is until the cows come home. The best you can do might be simply believing them, but you may never be able to actually understand.
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Postby Wil » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:17 pm

Just do as I do and consider these people with such weak psyches such as themselves as being lesser beings not capable of withstanding the tolls of life and move on. :roll:

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Postby Jayelle » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:32 pm

I really hope you're being sarcastic, Wil. Being sensitive and humane is has nothing to do with weakness.
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Postby locke » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:02 pm

:roll:

Come on, Jan, that sarcasm was so clear it was practically leaping and dancing off the page.

here is an example of something that is not sarcasm,
"You have to understand the mindset of a lot of these feminists and women...These women have paid their dues. They've been married two or three times; they've had two or three abortions; they've done everything that feminism asked them to do. They have cut men out of their lives; they have devoted themselves to causes and careers. And this — the candidacy of Hillary Clinton — is the culmination of all of these women's efforts." - Rush Limbaugh
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Postby Jayelle » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:31 am

Eye rolls can be confusing. I was pretty sure it was sarcasm... I was being a bit oversensitive. Sorry bout that.

Okay, on topic...

Cam, you may not ever understand how a woman feels while pregnant because you're not one. That's just the way it is. However, it might make a difference if you ever become a father - seeing a pregnancy/birth/childhood up close and personal makes a difference to how you understand life.

It might help to think about mourning a potential. If you think about something in your life that had potential and then didn't happen - it doesn't just go away. That lost potential can keep cropping up again and again even as your life moves forward. Without getting overly personal with you here, Cam, I think you can relate to that feeling.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:03 pm

I can't help but be a little miffed about what you're all saying.

Doesn't the entire pro-choice argument rest on the premise that it isn't "life"? If you don't consider it life, there's nothing to really mourn. And if you do consider it life, I really don't feel pity that you're scarred by killing it.

Personally, I could never do that. And that's fine. There are people who can and I don't judge them for it. But if the fetus is alive enough that you feel scarred because you killed it, I won't feel sorry for you. Either it's not life and that makes it okay for you to kill it, or it is life and it's not okay to kill it. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your baby (to mourn) and kill it, too.

Now, that's not to say abortions won't scar people for other reasons. I'm not a woman, I've never been through the situation, so I wouldn't know. I just don't think that the people who don't consider a fetus as living would be in mourning over killing it and I don't particularly see why we should care about those people who do consider it life, but have the abortion, anyway.
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Postby Young Val » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:06 pm

No, actually, the pro-choice argument does NOT rest on the assumption that it isn't "life."

The pro-choice argument rests on the woman's right to choose. It's pro-choice, not pro-abortion.
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Postby lyons24000 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:39 pm

Young Val wrote:No, actually, the pro-choice argument does NOT rest on the assumption that it isn't "life."

The pro-choice argument rests on the woman's right to choose. It's pro-choice, not pro-abortion.


I am not being mean or sarcastic or rude but I personally feel that saying "a woman's right to choose" is just putting a nice label on something gruesome. Make it sound all nice, pretty, and important and it becomes okay. Women have the right to choose in many, many instances. They can choose to do this or that, buy this or that, go this place or that place, not go, apply for this job or not apply for it. I just don't see how it is such a big loss for women's rights if abortion is made illegal. If they don't want a child then this is a way out.

Just my thought.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:45 pm

FYI, this thread is being watched carefully. Everyone play nice.
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Postby Petra456 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:26 pm

lyons24000 wrote:
I am not being mean or sarcastic or rude but I personally feel that saying "a woman's right to choose" is just putting a nice label on something gruesome. Make it sound all nice, pretty, and important and it becomes okay. Women have the right to choose in many, many instances. They can choose to do this or that, buy this or that, go this place or that place, not go, apply for this job or not apply for it. I just don't see how it is such a big loss for women's rights if abortion is made illegal. If they don't want a child then this is a way out.

Just my thought.


I honestly can't see how it wouldn't be a HUGE loss for women's rights if they can't choose what to do with their own body...
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:32 pm

Kelly, I guess we'll just have to disagree about whether or not its a major tenant of the pro-choice crowd. It's always used in debates on whether abortion is morally acceptable. NARAL endorses the view and derides anyone who disagrees.

Now, it is true that some pro-choice proponents admit the fetus is alive, but they claim it is not a "person." If that's what you're getting at, replace "life" with "person" in my earlier post and the same thing applies.

Either way, I think it's more than a little specious to pretend the question of when life begins, or when it matters (when it becomes a "person"), isn't a central argument of the pro-choice crowd. And pretending the political framing of the issue (pro-choice vs anti-choice, pro-life vs anti-life) is the only issue at the core of the debate is downright ridiculous.
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Postby Young Val » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:47 pm

All I'm getting at is that the pro-choice stance is about the right to choose. It's not about preferring abortion over birth, or pressing abortions on those who don't want to have them, or insisting that everyone has to choose to have an abortion. Pro-choice is about ensuring that women have the right to choose whether or not they will have an abortion. Pro-choice is about keeping that option on the table.

Some people are pro-choice because they believe that the fetus is alive and is a person. But that's not what being pro-choice is about.

It might seem like I'm quibbling, here, but it's a very big distinction. The specific reasons why a person might support the option of abortion are varied, none of them embody the pro-choice viewpoint. The pro-choice viewpoint is very clearly about the choice. Pro-choice is a viewpoint saying that regardless of the beliefs of individuals, women have the right to choose.
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Postby daPyr0x » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:21 pm

Thank you, EL. I really wasn't intending on opening a discussion of whether or not Abortion is wrong, so I'm not looking for anything to get out of hand.

Jayelle wrote:It might help to think about mourning a potential. If you think about something in your life that had potential and then didn't happen - it doesn't just go away. That lost potential can keep cropping up again and again even as your life moves forward. Without getting overly personal with you here, Cam, I think you can relate to that feeling.

That was a great way to put it. Thank you. Perhaps one day I will be a father and truly understand what all that is like, but that was a really good way to describe it.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:27 pm

All I'm getting at is that to suggest that the political framing of the issue (the label) is the only major tenant of the ideology is not just silly, it's completely false. I also think it's pretty silly to insist that some of the underlying reasoning used by the pro-choice crowd for why it is not immoral are completely unrelated to the movement.

While it is true that the movement is about women having the right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, one of the biggest arguments coming out of the movement to justify such a position is the question of when life begins or when it matters. To dismiss that is pretty ridiculous.

I do think it's quite interesting that you lead with arguing against statements nobody here -- or anywhere, really -- has made. Like I said, we'll just have to disagree, because I'm sure nothing I say will convince you and I'm absolutely certain that I'm not going to simply dismiss a major argument of the movement, expressed by a multitude of members of the movement, simply because you don't think it matters much.
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Postby lyons24000 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:22 pm

Petra456 wrote:
lyons24000 wrote:
I am not being mean or sarcastic or rude but I personally feel that saying "a woman's right to choose" is just putting a nice label on something gruesome. Make it sound all nice, pretty, and important and it becomes okay. Women have the right to choose in many, many instances. They can choose to do this or that, buy this or that, go this place or that place, not go, apply for this job or not apply for it. I just don't see how it is such a big loss for women's rights if abortion is made illegal. If they don't want a child then this is a way out.

Just my thought.


I honestly can't see how it wouldn't be a HUGE loss for women's rights if they can't choose what to do with their own body...


You fail to take into account that this immediately negates the right of the unborn fetus to decide what to do with his or her life as opposed to the womans body. And there are still many things that a woman can choose to do with her own body. Tattoo or no tattoo. Surgery or no surgery. Etc. or no etc. If abortion was made illegal it would not start to affect any other choices as to what a woman can do to herself. It would not mean that one day women may not be allowed to have tattoos or that women can not choose to have some type of surgery. Those rights would never be infringed upon if abortion was made illegal. Isn't that what the main argument is stemming from? This is just a question that I have honestly considered. I do not want it to seem that I am trying to take sides in a political argument.

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative but these are thoughts that I have given consideration to without taking a stance on the issue of "pro-life/pro-choice." That is more of a political issue while my views on abortion tend to stem from religious issues. I am not trying to take a political stand or make a political statement. I am only asking due to my religious views.
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Postby locke » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:05 pm

Men have a relatively short time frame in which to make their side of the choice about pregnancy, women, just in the nature of the thing have a much longer time frame to make their side of the choice about pregnancy.

so if a rapist decides, during the act of rape (consciously or unconsciously), "I'm going to ejaculate in her" he's made his choice about pregnancy (whether or not a pregnancy occurs). To say that a woman has no right to contradict his choice is absurd and fundamentally unequal. It privileges the man's status over the woman's. To a degree it is making the crime of rape less onerous and more socially acceptable because it chains women to the choices of the rapist, and doesn't give women agency over their own existence. It's saying, "your body may be yours, but your womb is not, that belongs to society, and society thinks it is better for you to be raped than for you to have choice and control over what is or isn't in your womb."
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Postby Wil » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:32 pm

If women were meant to have a choice in the matter then they would have evolved the ability to consciously decide if an egg should become fertilized or not, much in the same way we can make a conscious decision to breath or blink. :roll:

Call it what you will, but having an abortion before the the ~24th week of pregnancy is more like killing potential life. Whereas, anything after that, the fetus has a greater than 50% chance of living outside the womb and is really considered killing life.

That is how I look at it, and that is why I think abortion should not be allowed after the Limit of viability.

I really have no comment as to why some women tend to get super emotionally attached to their unborn children and I really have no desire to spend much time pondering on the subject either. It is really just another example of an abnormal extreme to human emotion and is to be expected by some. I'd venture a guess and say that the vast majority of children either aborted or lost during pregnancy result in the mother being about as upset as to be expected (read: "that person, as a child, losing a pet") given no extreme results of hormonal imbalances post-pregnancy. *shrugs*

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Postby Petra456 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:55 am

lyons24000 wrote:
Petra456 wrote:
You fail to take into account that this immediately negates the right of the unborn fetus to decide what to do with his or her life as opposed to the womans body. And there are still many things that a woman can choose to do with her own body. Tattoo or no tattoo. Surgery or no surgery. Etc. or no etc. If abortion was made illegal it would not start to affect any other choices as to what a woman can do to herself. It would not mean that one day women may not be allowed to have tattoos or that women can not choose to have some type of surgery. Those rights would never be infringed upon if abortion was made illegal. Isn't that what the main argument is stemming from? This is just a question that I have honestly considered. I do not want it to seem that I am trying to take sides in a political argument.


Actually, I was leaving the "rights" of the fetus out because that also goes back to if you consider it life or not.

Saying that woman can choose every other choice about their body and future except that one, major thing is wrong. I'm not worried at all about all those other rights you mentioned, because no one is saying we can't do that. If people were this passionate about whether or not people could get tattoos, i'm sure people would be arguing over that (and no, i'm not saying being able to get a tattoo is on the same level as being able to have an abortion).
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Postby lyons24000 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:03 am

Petra456 wrote:
Actually, I was leaving the "rights" of the fetus out because that also goes back to if you consider it life or not.

Saying that woman can choose every other choice about their body and future except that one, major thing is wrong. I'm not worried at all about all those other rights you mentioned, because no one is saying we can't do that. If people were this passionate about whether or not people could get tattoos, i'm sure people would be arguing over that (and no, i'm not saying being able to get a tattoo is on the same level as being able to have an abortion).


There you go. You answered my question without actually answering it. I am of the conclusion that there are two individuals that should be taken into account. People who are not against abortion believe that there is only one individual. I can see how having that mindset makes it easier to allow yourself to have the abortion.

What Wil said also brings a question into my mind. The way I see it, even though before the twenty-fourth week the fetus can not live without the support from the mothers body--I find it interesting how we all continue to use the word "live" in reference to the fetus, that suggest that an abortion is "killing" what is "alive"--a newborn baby cannot live without support. Heck, even a one-year old cannot live without support. To me, that reality grinds the opposing viewpoint to the ground. Because any argument that you can make can be applied to a child that has been born. Is there anyone who would care to answer this question?

Again, I am trying to get answers to these questions that I have long wondered about with all sincerity. I have always felt that women justify their actions because they just want to have an abortion because they would rather not have children. I've never actually imagined that it was all about protecting a woman's rights.
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Postby Luet » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:05 am

lyons24000 wrote:I have always felt that women justify their actions because they just want to have an abortion because they would rather not have children.


That really isn't true. I think you know how I feel about abortion in general, but there are plenty of women who very much want to have children but may choose to abort a child after a rape. Despite my personal feelings regarding abortion, I would never judge a woman for that and neither should you. You can hate the practice of abortion but you can never know the reasons that a person decides to have one. I would guess that rarely is the reason that she would "rather not have children".
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Postby lyons24000 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:54 am

Luet wrote:
lyons24000 wrote:I have always felt that women justify their actions because they just want to have an abortion because they would rather not have children.


That really isn't true. I think you know how I feel about abortion in general, but there are plenty of women who very much want to have children but may choose to abort a child after a rape. Despite my personal feelings regarding abortion, I would never judge a woman for that and neither should you. You can hate the practice of abortion but you can never know the reasons that a person decides to have one. I would guess that rarely is the reason that she would "rather not have children".


I apologize. I was thinking about putting "except in extreme cases" but I have my own inner struggles with even that. Is saying "you might die of complications while giving birth to the child" sufficient grounds for abortion to me? I do not know. There are plenty of women who were given that warning who lived and there are plenty of women given that warning who died. For me, that is like saying, "there is a chance that that person could kill you" and so you kill that person first because there is a chance you might die. And then even when people know for a fact that someone was going to kill them and they had the opportunity to kill that person first they didn't take it and ended up dying because of it. You always have to remember that there is a chance that even if a person is told that there is a high chance that they could die of complications during childbirth they still lived. Those warning are not definite.

I read of a woman who was completely healthy who died during childbirth out of nowhere. No one had even considered the thought that it could happen because the birth was so routine. We then have to consider aborting all fetuses because anyone could die while giving birth. I personally would feel like a hypocrite. I guess that "Extreme cases" are conscious matters. Not all women would have abortions in extreme cases. Some would rather die then kill the fetus and others would rather live with knowing that their child was the product of rape then kill it. I know someone who did carry a child to term that was a product of rape. The husband was held down by a large group of men while each one raped his wife. They both love that child, who is now an Elder, as if he was the biological child of the two people.

Now, I want to stress this point to the limit: I do not hold that woman in higher regard because she chose to carry the child. I do not look down on any woman who chooses to abort a child because he or she is the product of rape. Please do not think that is the point I am trying to make. However, I also make myself understand that rape has occurred for thousands of years throughout human history and pregnancy occurring from rape has happened as often as that. Abortion is relatively new. Women from eons of time carried those children and the world is no better off then it would have been had they not.

This is a very, very delicate subject and any choices on the matter should not be taken lightly. I am not advocating one choice over another or pushing judgment. These are thoughts that I have had for a long time and am giving voice to so as to add to the already delicate conversations as things to think upon. I'm comfortable enough with all of you to say these things and hope that you understand that I am not pushing a certain viewpoint forward.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:14 am

Lyons, I think the difference they're getting at is that a fetus (before it is viable) cannot physically survive without the mother (the "host," if you will), whereas a child (or viable fetus) can physically survive without the mother's womb, even if they need support from machines or other humans (to feed, clothe, and shelter them, for instance).

Luet, et al., I think it's important to note that only one percent of abortions are caused by rape or incest. That's not to say it's unimportant, but I think it's a little specious to act as if it is the major -- or even a major -- cause.

ETA: And, unsurprisingly, the percentage of women who get abortions because they do not want any (or any more) children (eight percent) is higher than those who get abortions because of rape/incest. So, again, I think it's pretty silly to call one factor a rarity and then bring to light a factor eight times rarer.
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Postby lyons24000 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:13 am

Syphon the Sun wrote:Lyons, I think the difference they're getting at is that is that a fetus (before it is viable) cannot survive without the mother (the "host," if you will), whereas a child (or viable fetus) can physically survive without the mother's womb, even if they need support from machines or other humans (to feed, clothe, and shelter them, for instance).


I guess I don't see a big difference. I feel that a child (whether in the womb or not) should be given appropriate care so that he or she will survive. Please tell me what is the difference between killing a four month old fetus versus a fourth month old infant. If the mother doesn't want the fetus why is it okay to abort it while it is not okay to kill the child outside the mother. Is it because we can't see it? An "out of sight, out of mind" sort of thing? I am really trying to understand the big difference.
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Postby starlooker » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:16 am

The difference is that the four month old fetus is entirely dependent on the mother, and if she is not willing to keep it to term (for whatever reason), no one else can assume the responsibility. There is no other way for her to not have to take this on.

Whereas, if a parent doesn't want a four-month old infant, there are a variety of things that other family members or society can do to keep it alive and functioning.

That is a huge difference. From the potential mother's perspective, anyhow.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:22 pm

Abortion is relatively new.


I don't know or care how old the act of providing legal abortions is, or illegal ones for that matter- though I'm inclined to say women used to throw themselves down stairs to try to abort children and they probably did other things as well at times.

All I know is that I'd rather there be a legal, safe option with a professional involved than have women, who will get one no matter what the law says, going into a potentially dangerous/harmful/shady situation to have the procedure done- that is regardless of how and why they came to decide abortion was the way to go.

I think it's important to note that only one percent of abortions are caused by rape or incest. That's not to say it's unimportant, but I think it's a little specious to act as if it is the major -- or even a major -- cause.


Ah, I told Adam this would be mentioned. I agree, it's not a major reason/cause for abortion. But it happens and I would rather abortion stay legal for all for the sake of that 1% than make it illegal for all and force that 1% to carry to term if they don't want to. And no, I'd rather not see it be made illegal with exceptions or kept legal with more restrictions than are currently in place or any other variant other than legal for all, as it is now.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:16 pm

And you know what? That's fine; at least you're honest about it. I just think it's a little shady to be insisting one cause for abortion is rare, while proclaiming a rarer cause is prominent.

I also think it is important to note that before abortion was made legal by the Supreme Court, the vast majority (upwards of ninety percent) of abortions were already performed by doctors.


As I've said before, on a personal level, I simply couldn't let a (future) child of mine be aborted. At the same time, I think the government's role should be a limited one, this issue included. Additionally, I don't believe abortions should be legal once the fetus is viable and I strongly disagree with the President's stance on the survivors of failed-abortions.

That said, I'm mostly just trying to make sure the facts are actually laid out on the table. It's completely counter-productive to any discussion to make up your own facts as you go, which is what I've been seeing, here. Just trying to make sure we'll all playing by the same rules.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:01 pm

Syphon the Sun wrote:I also think it is important to note that before abortion was made legal by the Supreme Court, the vast majority (upwards of ninety percent) of abortions were already performed by doctors.


Cool, didn't know that. Still, I like laws that protect minorities and I like that no one, not doctor or patient, will have to risk anything or be caused to feel shame they wouldn't feel anyway* having the procedure done thanks to its being made legal.

(Ideally, that is. Not a fan of those who aspire to make the lives of these people hellish for getting/performing abortions.)
Last edited by Gravity Defier on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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