Free Will

[CezeN]

Hmmm. I suppose I would argue that Adam and Eve were the only humans ever created with perfect free will, and because they botched it, and sin is passed on seminally, that caused the fall of man's inherent nature.

Cezen: I am dying to know where you have ANY Biblical support for ANY of this BS about God being able to sin. Christ did not ACCEPT our sins as his own, he offered his life in exchange for them. And I still cannot believe you think God is anything but Holy.

How about the verses that say God can do anything?

There's a reason Jesus said something along the lines of "God, why have you forsaken me?!?!" when he was on the cross. It was because God judged him and turned away from him because of all the sin he had. God judged Jesus in the same way he's going to judge all of us.
Now, if Jesus didn't accept all of our sins into himself, why did God do that?

It was more than just offering his life in exchange. He took the burden of sin on his shoulders. Thus, one could argue that God can go against his nature and sin if he chose to.

Either way, remind me of the place where I said God was anything but holy. Kthnx.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

here are some verses in favor of Predestination (the opposite of free will).

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

verse 11, same chapter:in Him also we have obtained inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Ephesians Chapter 2, versus 3-9:
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just like the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us.
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
6. and raised us up together and made us sit together in the Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
7. That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus [this is the explanation for the purpose of sin]
8. For by grace you have been saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
9. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

... and here are some versus about the incorruptibility of God.

John 8:46 "which of you convinceth me of sin?"

I John 3:5 "In Him was no sin"

Hebrews 13:8 Christ is "The same yesterday, today, and forever"

Psalm 102:27 "Thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail"

Say what you like, but I have Biblical support.

[CezeN]

here are some verses in favor of Predestination (the opposite of free will).

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

verse 11, same chapter:in Him also we have obtained inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Ephesians Chapter 2, versus 3-9:
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just like the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us.
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
6. and raised us up together and made us sit together in the Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
7. That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus [this is the explanation for the purpose of sin]
8. For by grace you have been saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
9. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

... and here are some versus about the incorruptibility of God.

John 8:46 "which of you convinceth me of sin?"

I John 3:5 "In Him was no sin"

Hebrews 13:8 Christ is "The same yesterday, today, and forever"

Psalm 102:27 "Thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail"

Say what you like, but I have Biblical support.

Actually, that depends on what definition I suscribe to. I described mine earlier.

Either way, you're going to have to explain how Ephesians 3-11 have anything to do with free will.

Next, you're going to have to establish the context of those other solo sentences that you're quoting.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Ok, Ephesians 2:3-9 are predestination because they describe the sin of mankind and how only God can save (..and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God)

the context of those ones about the incorruptibility of God:

They are talking about God.

If you dont believe me, look them up yourelf. and Im still waiting for your verses about how God CAN sin.

[CezeN]

You don't know what context means?

Ok, Ephesians 2:3-9 are predestination because they describe the sin of mankind and how only God can save (..and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God)

the context of those ones about the incorruptibility of God:

They are talking about God.

If you dont believe me, look them up yourelf. and Im still waiting for your verses about how God CAN sin.

That doesn't make it anything about predestination. What it does is describe mankinds nature, and that it can only be overcome through God.

Predestination = Certain choice and path all people are destined to take through life

Psalm 102:27 "Thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail"

The context of this is that in the previous verses, the guy is talking about clothes and garments perishing and wasting away. Meaning, when he says "thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail", he's saying that God will never waste away - since he's immortal.

That is context. Think about it next time you copypaste verses using google.

Hebrews 13:8 Christ is "The same yesterday, today, and forever"

You can quote this, however you should realize that Jesus Christ wasn't the same. I mean, he had a childhood. His body grew and his spirituality grew. He was judged and left by God as well, when he took sin. Obviously that was different from how he usually is.
Nontheless, the scripture is open to broad interpretation.
Not to mention, the person saying that isn't God. Meaning his knowledge isn't absolute.

First two quotes are about God as he is. I'm talking about what God is capable of. Big difference.

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Establish what "predestination" it is referring to. Then, realize that when people talk about predestination in concern with free will, they talk about a pre-established path through life. Which isn't mentioned in the scripture.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosene, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

At the bottom of my bible, it says e"or 'were made heirs'"
The "predestined" part could/probably refers to the first part of that sentence. As suggested by using the words "having been".

Either way, it's not like it isn't possible that God's plan factors in our own free will in it.

Last, how necessary is that? It's common knowledge that the bible says numerous times that God can do anything. I'm trying to play a video game right now, maybe tomorrow.
EDIT: Luke 1:37
"For nothing is impossible with God"

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Hebrews 13:8 Christ is "The same yesterday, today, and forever"

You can quote this, however you should realize that Jesus Christ wasn't the same. I mean, he had a childhood. His body grew and his spirituality grew. He was judged and left by God as well, when he took sin. Obviously that was different from how he usually is.
Nontheless, the scripture is open to broad interpretation.
Not to mention, the person saying that isn't God. Meaning his knowledge isn't absolute.

First two quotes are about God as he is. I'm talking about what God is capable of. Big difference.

First, they are NOT off google, they are from works by Theologically studied authors. This book in particular is called Jesus Christ our LORD by John F Walvoord.

Second. The whole thing about Christ has a childhood, Yes, but that came as a result of his being a man, not of his being a God. his personal essence can never change. His spirituality did NOT grow, only his ability to express it, which again came from his being Man.

Third. When you say that this person's knowledge isn't absolute, it seems to me you are questioning the legitimacy of the Word of God. strange.

My side is still supported much stronger because, as of yet, you have come up with exactly ZERO verses supporting your side of the issue.

Establish what "predestination" it is referring to. Then, realize that when people talk about predestination in concern with free will, they talk about a pre-established path through life. Which isn't mentioned in the scripture.

Predesination is predestination. It refers to nothing but its contrast with free will. as for the "which isn'tmentioned in scripture", please. I just gave you a few. I could give a few more if you like, or you could show me a verse that talks about how man has the will to do good apart from God. (Adam doesn't count)

Lastly, since you are so greeyaz about God being all powerful (which he is, to the extent that everything in the universe defers to his will), then why are you arguing for free will? If men have power to do what they wish, it is power which God does NOT have, and therefore God would not be all powerful. God is eternal and unchanging. That makes him capable of exactly what he has done, and he HAS NOT SINNED.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Incedentally, if anybody wants to interpose comments,, they are welcome to. Just please read the whold forum first to avoid repetition.

[Rei]

I've had my day of arguing over free will and double predestination, Arminius versus Calvin. As much as I disagree with double predestination, I disagree with both your stance and your methodology, CezeN.

Hmmm. I suppose I would argue that Adam and Eve were the only humans ever created with perfect free will, and because they botched it, and sin is passed on seminally, that caused the fall of man's inherent nature.

Far be it from me to challenge Original Sin. I still suggest a fundamental difference in how we view nature. Human beings cannot have an evil nature, lest God has created something that is naturally evil. Since God can only do what is good and create what is good, our natures can only be good. However, due to Original Sin, our good nature is stained with the tendency to transgress and, by transgressing, commit evil.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

I realize that God cannot directly create evil, but what about Satan? He, unlike people, can do no good. He exists because God created him as his right-hand man, and Satan thought he was better than God (see Paradise Lost by John Milton). The same thing happened with mankind: God created Man as perfectly good, but made it possible for them to fall. Then they did.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Rei, do you believe, then, that Man is good with a few bad tendencies, or bad with a few good tendencies, or so "stained" that only God can bring out the good?

[jotabe]

So, is "Paradise Lost" scripture?

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

No. but it is mosty accurate. I was just referring you to Paradise Lost because it is a good story of the Fall. Satan DID fall because he believed himself to be equal to, if not higher than God. That's just part of Scripture, not just Paradise Lost.

[jotabe]

What part of the scripture is that one?

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Isaiah 14: 12-15: How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, a son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congergation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet you will be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Sorry it took me so long...

[jotabe]

Is 14:4 "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended! "
Is 14: 7-8 "All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
"Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down." "

It seems to me that "Lucifer" (one of the names given to Venus, the morning star) is a metaphor for the king of Babylon, when commenting about the prophetized fall of Babylon.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

No, this is not a metaphor. this is a warning to the king of Babylon telling him not to fall like Lucifer did. read carefully.

Also, the reason why Venus was also called Lucifer is because Satan USED to be the highest and best of all the angels. the most beautiful. the guard of God's throne. The star was named after Satan, not vice-versa

[jotabe]

Ok this is purely bible-thumping now, but i am happy to oblige XD
There is no warning to the king of Babylon, it's a prophecy for the people of Israel, of how they are going to be freed from bondage (Babylon deportation) and how they will allow Israel to enslave their former captors, and how the fall of babylon is going to be completely shocking and awesome.

Lucifer is "light bearer", which is appropriate for Venus as the morning star, because it was the first light of the day, it "brought" the light of the sun.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

reread Isaiah 14:4. He is telling the Isrielites "you will take up THIS PROVERB..., meaning the one following. The proverb he refers to is the proverb of Satan's Fall.

but because you seem so adamant, how, exactly DID Satan fall, if not like this?

[CezeN]

Hebrews 13:8 Christ is "The same yesterday, today, and forever"

You can quote this, however you should realize that Jesus Christ wasn't the same. I mean, he had a childhood. His body grew and his spirituality grew. He was judged and left by God as well, when he took sin. Obviously that was different from how he usually is.
Nontheless, the scripture is open to broad interpretation.
Not to mention, the person saying that isn't God. Meaning his knowledge isn't absolute.

First two quotes are about God as he is. I'm talking about what God is capable of. Big difference.

First, they are NOT off google, they are from works by Theologically studied authors. This book in particular is called Jesus Christ our LORD by John F Walvoord.

Second. The whole thing about Christ has a childhood, Yes, but that came as a result of his being a man, not of his being a God. his personal essence can never change. His spirituality did NOT grow, only his ability to express it, which again came from his being Man.

Third. When you say that this person's knowledge isn't absolute, it seems to me you are questioning the legitimacy of the Word of God. strange.

My side is still supported much stronger because, as of yet, you have come up with exactly ZERO verses supporting your side of the issue.

Establish what "predestination" it is referring to. Then, realize that when people talk about predestination in concern with free will, they talk about a pre-established path through life. Which isn't mentioned in the scripture.

Predesination is predestination. It refers to nothing but its contrast with free will. as for the "which isn'tmentioned in scripture", please. I just gave you a few. I could give a few more if you like, or you could show me a verse that talks about how man has the will to do good apart from God. (Adam doesn't count)

Lastly, since you are so greeyaz about God being all powerful (which he is, to the extent that everything in the universe defers to his will), then why are you arguing for free will? If men have power to do what they wish, it is power which God does NOT have, and therefore God would not be all powerful. God is eternal and unchanging. That makes him capable of exactly what he has done, and he HAS NOT SINNED.

1. Sure.
2. Really? His personal essence is holy and immortal right? Yet, he did change it to part man. And, part mortal. After all, Jesus didn't start off as human.
3. Job Chapter 22: Verse 13-14
"Yet you say, 'What does God know? Does he judge through such darkness? Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens"
So, since this is in the bible, it's true? Meaning, God cannot see us because of the clouds covering the Earth?

....Yes, the bible is the word of God. And, it chronicles the words and stories of alot of people. So, does that mean everything they say is true?

There's a reason I said "the person saying that isn't God". Man's knowledge is fallible, God's knowledge(and words) are absolute.

Already posted my verse. Suggestion, look up what the words "nothing" and "impossible" mean, and then tell me how it doesn't support what I'm saying - that God can do anything and everything he wants. Including sin if he chose to.

Predesination is predestination. It refers to nothing but its contrast with free will. as for the "which isn'tmentioned in scripture", please. I just gave you a few. I could give a few more if you like, or you could show me a verse that talks about how man has the will to do good apart from God. (Adam doesn't count)

So, you're saying if I find a verse that says all men are predestined to be judged by God at the End times, because it mentioned the word "predestined", there's no such thing as free will?
Again, predestination in terms of free will means that they have an established series of choices and path through their life that they're meant to take. Which is why the previous quote would be unrelated, other than mentioning the word "predestined"....

Or, you could show me my quote where I said that man has the will to do good apart from God.

Last
1. I follow a different definition of free will than you.
2. God can take control of anyone "free will" whenever he wants. He allows us to have free will. And before you go "scripture nao plox", think about when God hardened the pharoah's heart so he'd go after the Israelites. That's how I interpret it.

Also, you do realize that you don't know what specific thing about God the bible is talking about, when it says "unchanging". Meaning, it's up to interpretation.
However, God's moods have changed throughout the bible. Some of God's laws have changed. God's decisions have changed as well.

[jotabe]

My translation says "taunt" not "proverb". Also, it tells them to say that to the King of Babylon after his fall.

Honestly? i don't believe in the devil. Human being can be so evil that the devil looks like an excuse "i didn't mean to, the devil made me do it".
Also the devil, as such, hardly appears in the earlier parts of the bible. Only the accuser. Since genesis, where they talk about the snake, not the devil, and they say "the snake being the most cunning of all the animals", and then they have God punishing all the snakes to lose their limbs... why would God punish the snakes if it had been the devil taking the shape of a snake? Then in Job, they talk about the Accuser, who doesn't seem to be evil at all. And seems to be in good terms with God.

The devil seems to be an influence on late pre-christian judaism coming from the zoroastrianism, same as hell is basically a copy of the Hades: in the old testament, God doesn't use hell as punishment, he simply kills those deemed wicked.

[CezeN]

I've had my day of arguing over free will and double predestination, Arminius versus Calvin. As much as I disagree with double predestination, I disagree with both your stance and your methodology, CezeN.

Weird - because I agree with your stance.
Well, alot of what you said in your previous post.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Well if you don't believe in the Devil it's a rather moot point isn't it? Incedentally, I don't blame evil on the devil because often, the devil doesn't do it. we can do it perfectly well on our own.

What version of the Bible are you using? I'm using NKJV

[jotabe]

What version of the Bible are you using? I'm using NKJV

Spanish one, "Dios habla hoy". When i need English version, "New International Version".

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

eh. I don't like NIV, it conforms a bit too much to the Charismatic movement. Are you fluent in Spanish then? what country are you from?

[jotabe]

Well i am Spaniard that's why i was talking about Spain health care in the other thread lol

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

ah. well that makes sense. just curious; what time is is over there?

[jotabe]

Well i am Spaniard that's why i was talking about Spain health care in the other thread lol.

[Rei]

I realize that God cannot directly create evil, but what about Satan? He, unlike people, can do no good. He exists because God created him as his right-hand man, and Satan thought he was better than God (see Paradise Lost by John Milton). The same thing happened with mankind: God created Man as perfectly good, but made it possible for them to fall. Then they did.

I think I can safely stand by my initial suggestion: God creates all things, and that which God creates is good. The devil, when he transgressed the nature God created him with, fell, and because with angels one cannot return, he behaves solely contrary to his nature as Lucifer, bearer of light.

As for whether man is mostly good or mostly bad or whatever, that is very much overly simplistic. I believe that people are naturally good for the reasons I gave earlier (that they are created in God's image, and that God has declared his creation good). It's not a question of being made 90% good and 10% bad or vice versa.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

I think I can safely stand by my initial suggestion: God creates all things, and that which God creates is good. The devil, when he transgressed the nature God created him with, fell, and because with angels one cannot return, he behaves solely contrary to his nature as Lucifer, bearer of light.

good. exactly. I agree with this point entirely.

About people being naturally good, I think that Adam and Eve were naturally good, but with the capabilty to do evil, and when they DID do evil, it changed the nature of man from naturally good to naturally evil.

Look a society today: Look at the widespread corruption in government (of both parties, which is why I vote neither R nor D) Look at the murders that happen every day on the news. Look at the wars that have started over greed or betrayal. Look at the senselessness in our schools, the lack of morals, the corrupting of our youth, the lies in the media. Look at all this, then tell me that man is naturally good. I cannot accept that.

[Rei]

It is for those reasons that I used to take that same approach. People do lots of horrible things all the time. I think what in particular MAKES those things so horrible, though, is that they are CONTRARY to our nature, as opposed to according to our nature. Can you condemn someone for behaving exactly as they were made? If you breed an animal to attack humans on sight, can you blame it for doing exactly what you have made it to do? If God has indeed made us all, he has made us each as we are, and we must therefore be good. We may carry the curse of Original Sin due to Adam and Eve's falling, and because of that are prone to commit all sorts of horrible acts, but our nature must still be good because God has created us and creates all things good.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

I guess that means that you agree except that you think nature is unchangable. I think the Fall changed our inherent nature. Is that accurate?

[Rei]

Mostly. Whether or not the nature of a created being can change is hugely significant and I am loathe to risk making it a minor issue. With it resides the question of whether or not God can create something with an evil or fallen nature, and whether, if a creation is naturally evil, that creation can be judged, or if its creator should be judged for making such a monster.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

God did not create man with a fallen nature, our nature was Holy. But then we sinned and as a consequence, wee fell, hence our need for a redeemer.

Let me quote some scripture concerning the Evil nature of man.

Thus says the LORD: Cursed is the man who trusts in man And make flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD; The heart is deceitful above all things, And desparately wicked; who can know it?

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins

Dead, of course, meaning "utterly incapable"

Are there any verses concerning the inherent good of man?

[Rei]

I'm more concerned with the inherent good of God. We are all victims of Adam's curse which gives rise to evil in creation. And yet, God has made us all: as the psalmist says, he has created our inmost being and knit us in our mother's womb. God has made us all, and created our inmost being. Again, I ask you, can God truly be good and devoid of all evil and create anything that is evil?

In order for God to be perfectly good and for the children of Adam and Eve to be naturally sinful, God cannot have created any humans after Adam and Eve, lest he has created something that is not naturally good.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Clarify: do you agree with CezeN about God being capable of sin? or are you just questioning how he can create something evil? If the former, please read my previous debates with him. If the latter: He created Adam and Eve as purely good, and he also created the rest of matter on Earth, which, eventually, becomes us. Adam and Eve together made the rest of humanity. God created Adam and Eve (mankind represented in them). then they sinned and changed the rest of humanity.