World Hegemony and the Free People of Earth

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

Who agrees that action (BY US) needs to be taken in order to achieve world unity and peace for everyone?

Poll ended at Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:53 pm

I do! Right away!
1
6%
Yes, I think we should.
0
No votes
Maybe we should leave it up to the people who have power.
1
6%
There is no way to achieve that....
14
88%
 
Total votes: 16

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World Hegemony and the Free People of Earth

Postby Aesculapius » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:53 pm

[YES IT'S LONG, BUT WORTH THE READ. PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING, IT'S NECESSARY]

I think I’m right to believe that the majority of everyone on this forum knows what the FPE is and what it stands for/represents. The FPE is the name of the campaign that Peter Wiggin uses to unite the world under one, self-run, government.

I believe that our world can also achieve that; a world where there is no more war and all citizens live together, freely, in the company of those around them; no discrimination, no prejudice, only peace. I’m positive I’m not the first one to think of this, there must be at least a dozen other people who must’ve thought the same thing. But why hasn’t anyone else said anything? Because everyone gets stuck on the question HOW.

How can there be a united world? How do we go about achieving that? How is that possible? How will we overcome the obstacles?

Well, those same questions came to be as I pondered whether to actually post this or not. And the answer is that there is no answer, at least not until things actually start to happen.

We have the United Nations, which according the Enderverse, doesn’t turn out so well in the end. I believe it’s possible to change that outcome. There must be a way. There are already 192 countries that are a part of the UN. If there can be a way to get the remaining countries to join, we can have the next closest thing to a world government.

The thing is, even with the number of countries that are a part of the UN, there are still major problems and challenges that have yet to be solved (from the UN website):
Moving forward on developmental challenges (i.e. poverty)
Strengthening UN efforts to maintain peace and security (i.e. peacekeeping missions)
Bringing rights to all people of the world (i.e. preventing genocide)
Strengthening humanitarian action (i.e. environment)
Reforming management and operations practices (i.e. ethics)

Perhaps the reason why we still have war (Afghanistan, Iran) and genocide (Sudan) is due to the fact that people don’t believe in the UN and because there is still prejudice and discrimination present in everyday society.

To many people, the UN is like a world-wide police force that is unable to control and capture the wrong-doers. Though there may be some truth to that, it is not all correct. It is possible to make the UN the type of organization it was meant to be.

The last fifty years have been the most developmental time in human history and it can go even further by finally unifying the world. The world itself, physically, is already united, but it’s us as humans who draw the boundaries and point the fingers at each other, creating the problems that we have today. If, perhaps, peace can be ahieved, then, like in the Enderverse, it may be possible to focus our attention to new worlds and colonies that we can inhabit, outside of Earth (though, of course, that will take centuries, if not decades, to achieve).

This needs to be done before someone like Achilles, Hitler, Napoleon, or Genghis come along and try to take over the world by force. We already have so much terrorism in the world, and the only to prevent it from getting worse in the future, is by eliminating any opportunity for it to arise.

And the only way to do so, is to make the UN reach such a position where it will have the power, resources and ability to make, and maintain peace.

Like the Salon movement during the French Revolution, there needs to be more discussion and more talk about getting things done. Word needs to spread and people need to know.

I propose we do that by discussing topics here and then projecting the ideas into the world around us.

If we can have even ten of us start talking, that may turn into fifty, then a hundred and maybe a thousand one day, until we can finally achieve some change!

Keep aside the events that have kept us “safe” in the past and develop new ways to keep society at peace. It’s like climbing a staircase, learn from the steps you’ve already taken, but try to stay away from the traps.

We are the generation of tomorrow and we need to start to take action in order to get what we want and create a better society for the world around us.

[I apologize for the insanely long rant that I wrote, but I think it was necessary]
Last edited by Aesculapius on Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jayelle » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:22 pm

Repeat after me: Orson Scott Card writes fiction.

And what does it mean to agress?[/i]
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Postby Aesculapius » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:36 pm

Of course it's fiction, but that doesn't mean that something can be done in the real world to help make things get better.
And what does it mean to agress?[/i]
i'm not so sure what you meant about that...
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Postby Aesculapius » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:44 pm

I meant to mainly use the Enderverse as an example of what can happen and as a reference for future discussions that may occur here.
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Postby shadow_8818 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:36 pm

Maybe but mankind only unites during times of war or a common goal but once that goal goes away so does the unity. As humans we tend to need an enemy to fight. If a great union was formed it become corrupt and fall apart.
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Postby Alexander » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:43 pm

well I tend to think that we can unite but in a slow process and not through military but through the majority of the people. The united states is a great example of unity. there is no dominant race no dominant language and such great diversity

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Postby Rei » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:45 pm

There is no way I'd trust the States to lead a benevolent hegemony.
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Postby surditate_vero » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:46 pm

I'm with Rei on this one. Sorry.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:54 pm

The united states is a great example of unity.
No. (Sorry, gut reaction.)

Maybe.
there is no dominant race
At the risk of saying something controversial and getting into something I just plain don't want to get into (which probably means I shouldn't say a word, but I will anyway)...I'm pretty sure that historically speaking, that's bologna. Things are getting better, sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion the term 'minority' didn't spring up primarily for numerical reasons.

no dominant language
To the government, there sure is. English only, at least in AZ. On the streets, I'd still venture to say English is pretty dominant, with Spanish coming in second (though I wouldn't be surprised if something else were second in usage).
and such great diversity
Hmm. Not really sure what you're referring to, but that's both true and, in some cases, laughable and naive.



There is no way I'd trust the States to lead a benevolent hegemony.
Me either, when it comes down to it. I could support Antarctic penguins, though.

(My way of saying, I don't trust humans period to lead a benevolent hegemony.)
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Postby Rei » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:59 pm

I'll stand behind Antarctic penguins. Even extinct Kiwi ones.
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Postby Wil » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:10 pm

2000 Census:
English 82.10%
Spanish 10.71%
Chinese 0.61%
French 0.61%
German 0.52%

As for a global government: It is a lovely thought. But, just like nuclear disarmament, it will never work. Why? Because of this: http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf

In case the meaning is lost on you: We war. Over land, over resources, over religion, over weapons. We rarely unite, and when we do even that is fraught with discord.

In Ender's Game and the subsequent Shadow series, the only reason unity was brought about was that us as a race had a common enemy, and once that was destroyed the unity fractured like glass.

It. Will. Never. Happen. Spend all that thinking power on a more likely pursuit.

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Postby Jakt » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:22 pm

I voted never ever ever

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Postby locke » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:25 pm

Won't happen.

We like (perhaps even love) war.

War is very profitable.

We are suspicious of all others (means peace is always temporary)

War is fun and an opportunity for glory (or at least that's what every single new generation of males, and a lot of females, think whenever they get their chance to have their war and have fun like their parents' generation got to do. Why do you think we have a war like clockwork for each new generation? just coincidence?)
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:07 am

Alea,

I just wanted to point out that there is no official language of the United States government.

Sure, English is the de facto language of our nation, as it always has been, but it was never made official, mostly because nobody ever felt it necessary to make it official. Until recently, it was an unspoken rule that immigrants would learn English in order to assimilate. In fact, in a significant portion of cases, they refused to speak their native languages even at home.

That's not true, anymore, and the government isn't mandating it. My state has one of the largest illegal immigrant populations in the nation. And a significant legal immigration population. More than a quarter of our population are immigrants (Arizona's is half that). But, in terms of raw numbers, we have a few million more immigrants than Arizona.

Which is why all over the state -- even in rural areas -- you see English as a Second Language classes, all government documents written in English and Spanish, and translators in every government building and on every police force. You can request any government document in any language and chances are, you'll get it. Even the tests for driver's licenses have dozens of available languages to choose from (even though the signs themselves are in English only).

It's not just, here, either; that's what's happening all across the nation. It happened in Arizona, too, until they put their foot down in (I believe) the nineties. Sure, some states require their state documents to be in English-only (and cannot do a thing about federal documents), but even that number is decreasing (despite several states including it in their constitutional amendments). There's a reason there is an outcry for English to be made the official language: it isn't, yet.

As far as the term "minority" goes, I guess I just have to disagree. It's been in use to label groups of smaller numbers since its inception in the language and has always applied to a broad number of categories: language, race, age, etc.
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Postby Aesculapius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:45 pm

The comments posted above prove that the way think about peace is very different from way we should think about peace.

All of you seem to suggest that society can't achieve peace, and that it's like a far off world, running farther away the more we try to reach it.

The only way we can make world unity and peace possible is by changing the way we think and encouraging others to do the same. We can't say it's not possibile.

The only reason why complete peace able to be achieved in the past is because the people were still getting used to eachother and ackowledging the fact that people can be different from one another.

Today, we are at a stage where the whole world is mapped and complete (no "New World's" still left to explore on Earth). We have a different situation among us and we need to take advantage of that right now, while the concept of "the complete Mother Earth" is still relatively new.

Plus, not all change and revolution was brought on by war. There have been many great leaders and politician's and such that have persevered with only the written and spoken word to bring about their ideaologies.

It can be achieved, even without an alien force hovering over us, threatening to kill us all. There just have to be enough people willing to do that and support organizations trying to achieve it. We need a majority, as Alexander suggested.
That can be done, but only if people start to spread word and talk about it.

I watched the short clip on the link that Wil posted. Very interesting, I'm glad to have seen that. But, I don't think that would pose as bit a problem as you think it may. As I said earlier, those were different times, with much racial prejudice and religious quarrels.

Please, think about this in more depth. Don't think that you don't have any influence. Most countries today are run by democracy, and though it may not be perfect, citizens still have some point of influence concerning social needs and political movement.

Everyone has the idea of world unity, but no one steps forward to speak of it. They think it's impossible and cannot be achieved. But it can!
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:54 pm

But not everyone believes a world government is a good idea. It is a classic case of deciding whether liberty is more important than order, or vice versa. There is no liberty without order, but order is meaningless without liberty.
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Postby Aesculapius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:05 pm

Hmm, first time I've heard that. Very nice.

You may right in saying that not everyone thinks a world government is a good idea, but everyone wants unity (maybe not world unity, but unity), so the idea is there.

If they can see that world unity can work, they will agree on it.

And in order for it to work, it needs to start (primarily by societal discontent as mostly all revolutions and changes have started).
Don't get me wrong, I don't want revolution, especially not if it leads to another bloody war, but I do want peace, world peace.

It can start by getting ideas out your heads and out into the open.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:20 pm

Except, that's not true, either. Everybody doesn't want that; everybody won't agree to it.

People also want autonomy. In general, people want to be left alone. In the vast majority of cases, they unite simply as a way to achieve this end. A lot of people have no reason to unite in the first peaceful revolution.

And believe it or not, nationalism is alive and well; cosmopolitanism isn't nearly as wide spread and you would have us believe.
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Postby Aesculapius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:44 pm

Everybody doesn't want that; everybody won't agree to it.
I don't think your "everybody" counts as majority.
As much as humans love war, they also want peace.

I know just how much nationalism means to everyone and I don't want it to be dissolved.

Nationalism can still exist even in a world of peace, just in a more friendly way. And even though that seems highly unlikely, it's not an impossible idea.
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Postby Wil » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:59 pm

Not totally correct. You see, throughout history, those that want to conqueror are those that are most driven. Those that want war are those that will get it; those that want power are those that are most likely to receive it.

While this is completely speculative, I don't think it's too much of a long shot to say that many of our advances in technology have first and foremost been used to overpower another. Planes were being used for war before they were used for transportation. Nuclear weapons were used for war even though the creator(s) did not wish for this.

It's not that far out there to understand that while peace is good, those that are peaceful will always be the ones who are shot down by those that are warring. Those that are naieve enough to believe everything they are told are those that will be used against their knowledge. For every peaceful person who refuses to pick up a weapon you have at least one person willing to shoot that peaceful person down to get where they want to be. It is the way of the world and there is no getting around that.

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Postby Aesculapius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:08 pm

Okay, fine. It's true that the people for willing for war are the most likely to get their way with things.
However, the only reason that the peaceful people get overpowered is because they unwilling to fight about it, correct? Because they don't have the "drive" to do what they want to do.

But everytime there's war, there are more people (mainly the people sitting at home or the soldiers who are alive) who want the war to end and bring peace. Those people just need to stand up and say what they need to say and DO their part.

It is possible to do that without causing needless bloodshed.
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Postby Wil » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:18 pm

But to bring peace you must war. You must fight back against those that wish to do you harm. You must fight against that person that initiated the hostilities. Simply wanting peace does nothing so long as there is a person that does not want it.

Peace is not won without war. What are those that want peace to do against a bloody dictator? Yell at him to death? He will slap those fools aside and continue on his way. The only way to control those that war is to control them. You want someone to stay in line that wishes to do otherwise? You must put a gun to their head and bound their hands. For if you were to not do this and you look away, they will surely stab you. This is not peace, it is just stupidity.

Sorry, it just won't ever happen.

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Postby Aesculapius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:23 pm

Those are exactly the reason's why I want people to talk.

No one person has all the right ideas/methods to solve all of the worlds problems.

I mainly want to encourage talk about this. I'm not saying that I'm completely right, but I'd like more and more people to start to talk about this.

If not about achieveing world unity, then ways to promote peace and keep conflicts to a most minimum level.
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Postby Jakt » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:30 pm

Not totally correct. You see, throughout history, those that want to conqueror are those that are most driven. Those that want war are those that will get it; those that want power are those that are most likely to receive it.
This somehow makes me think of Grego's War in Xenocide....

One person has this radical idea and the mob mentality kicks in, it can be organized into something more I guess, radical.

The whole world would never fall under one name because so many people consider identity by the place they come from, and in a lot of cases how they are governed.

Personally I think its good to have more than one government in the world so people can make their choices on what they think is "fair" and move there and prosper.

I know World Peace is a good idea but its also really really cliche. I think there would be more cons than pros and a lot of uprising in the process.

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Postby Aesculapius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:44 pm

I know World Peace is a good idea but its also really really cliche. I think there would be more cons than pros
If that's true, why has the notion of world peace been around for so long?

World peace is like a utopian world. It's the "ideal", right? So many people throughout history have worked so hard for world peace.
And I think that, though most (pretty much all) of you disagree with the idea of world peace being achievable, it will happen one day. I truly believe that global warming will come to an end, and centuries, perhaps millenia from now, world peace will be achieved.
I don't know how, and I certainly don't think it's possible at this particular moment in time, but in the future, slowly, it can be possible.
It just needs a beginning.
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Postby Jakt » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:50 pm

Notions and actions are different -_-

The world has been at disagreement for quite sometime, and to be completely honest there would probably have to be war for there to be world peace.


Meh, Its easy to say whats going to happen that far in the future because you have absolutely no way of proving/disproving it. By then the rapture,(yes my own belief, lets not start an argument here.) could have happened. Or if you want to go with another belief the sun blows up -_-


Also define ideal because I don't think everyone would get their "fair share" or whatever you would have done under world peace

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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:01 pm

Alea,

I just wanted to point out that there is no official language of the United States government.
I believe I said my state government, not the national government. Official or not, this country is so unbelievably backwards and threatened when it comes to languages, I won't be surprised if/when it does become official.

Just so you know, I stopped reading after that because where you and I are concerned on this sort of thing, the only place we'll end up is in an argument, because that's how we've always worked. Also, you get vicious in your paragraphs and start calling people cupcake and sugar, and various other desserts (eat before posting, maybe?) and I ain't having it. ;)

I'll trust you have your reasons for believing what you do and I have mine. :)
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Postby Aesculapius » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:06 am

Instead of focusing on why we can't have world unity or no more war, how about we start to focus on what can be done, at the moment, to make the world a "better" place.

How can we start to get rid of poverty?
Put an end to genocide?
Try to stop terrorism?

We can't just leave things up to everyone else now, we have to at least start discussin world issues and how to make things better. We need to become a part of the world.
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Postby lyons24000 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:51 pm

Maybe we could just ask them to stop really, really nicely.

Seriously, it all sounds well and good, we would have to change the desires of these people. In Science Fiction it seems good, but people want their power and they will not give it up to someone with altruistic motives. That would diminish their power and then they'd be punished if they used it in a corrupt way, which is exactly how they want to use it.

You could kill those people but then a war would break out and we'd be in the same boat as we are in now. Talking and asking will not get anything done.
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Postby starlooker » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:48 pm

Instead of focusing on why we can't have world unity or no more war, how about we start to focus on what can be done, at the moment, to make the world a "better" place.

Crayons. Issuing brand new 64-crayon boxes of Crayola (with built in sharpener) and coloring sheets to all the world leaders as they're talking. Peace will just happen because it's very difficult to be power-hungry and coloring peaceful scenes at the same time. Or, perhaps, we give people who are traditional enemies boxes that are missing key colors that the other person has. They can practice negotiating skills by having to barter with each other for the brick red and periwinkle.

Or, there's always Jani's and my old idea about giving the UN cards with smilies :stonedkermit:
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There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

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Postby Wil » Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:34 pm

Greatest. Idea. Ever.

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Postby Aesculapius » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:14 pm

Very good, I'm glad we're getting somewhere. ^__^

Now, let's expand on the crayon idea and try to come up with something that the UN officials will actually accept. Something like the crayons, yet something that will not make them look like five-year-olds.

Personally though, I really like that idea.

And I highly agree with lyons24000.
we would have to change the desires of these people
How do you think we could go about doing that??

Any ideas?
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lyons24000
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Postby lyons24000 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:54 pm

Wow, completely taken out of context.
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained

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Jebus
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Postby Jebus » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:22 pm

Instead of focusing on why we can't have world unity or no more war, how about we start to focus on what can be done, at the moment, to make the world a "better" place.

Crayons. Issuing brand new 64-crayon boxes of Crayola (with built in sharpener) and coloring sheets to all the world leaders as they're talking. Peace will just happen because it's very difficult to be power-hungry and coloring peaceful scenes at the same time. Or, perhaps, we give people who are traditional enemies boxes that are missing key colors that the other person has. They can practice negotiating skills by having to barter with each other for the brick red and periwinkle.

Or, there's always Jani's and my old idea about giving the UN cards with smilies :stonedkermit:
I don't think you have a realistic understanding of the Muslims who want to kill you and steal your freedom and sell it for bombs.

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Jakt
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Postby Jakt » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:51 pm


I don't think you have a realistic understanding of the Muslims who want to kill you and steal your freedom and sell it for bombs.
BUT ALAI IS REAL! I READ IT -_-

It happened in the book it can happen in real life..


/sarcasm off


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