Evolution or Creation?

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

Did we get here by evolution or creation?

Creation
11
15%
Evolution
35
48%
Creation and Evolution
27
37%
 
Total votes: 73

User avatar
lyons24000
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:46 pm
Title: Darn Red Shells!
Location: Texas
Contact:

Evolution or Creation?

Postby lyons24000 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:23 am

Someone said something about evolution in the 'immortal soul' thread and I decided start a thread about it. With polls!!!!!
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained

suminonA
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:19 am
Location: Anywhere

Postby suminonA » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:32 am

You can't (rationally) rule out "Creation". You can always choose to believe in it.
My question is: Can you (rationally) rule out "Evolution"? Is it "just a personal choice", like "Creation" is?

A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

User avatar
wigginboy
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:38 am
First Joined: 0- 2-2004
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada

Postby wigginboy » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:48 pm

Well, I voted Creation AND Evolution because we obviously HAD to have been created somehow, but there is much evidence to suggest we HAVE evolved. To be honest, suminonA, both are personal choices because no one really knows which one is actually true, if any. One thing we do know for sure though, is that we are here. Why is still a mystery even to those who claim to know for sure. I am differentially religious in that I belive that there might be a god, and I live as if there was one, but I dont belong to any religion or denomination and I believe in many things that most religions do not.

suminonA
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:19 am
Location: Anywhere

Postby suminonA » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:11 pm

Well, I voted Creation AND Evolution because we obviously HAD to have been created somehow, but there is much evidence to suggest we HAVE evolved.
There is an axiom stating that “anything that exists must have been created”. With that, “Creation” is not only possible, but necessary.

What does “created somehow” mean for you?

Many religions state that some deity created the Universe EX NIHILO. Do you accept that? Do you accept that man has been created in the image of a deity? That Earth was created in one of six special days?

I think that in this case (this thread), as it always is with the Creation/Evolution debate, “Creation” means “Created by … a deity, with a purpose, for a reason etc”. Otherwise the poll options are quite irrelevant.

Either way, I agree that Creation is at least a possibility (no way to rule it out), especially if one of the intentions of the deity is for us to never be able to find out why/how/when etc.

What I’m curious about is if the ones to vote “Creation” dismiss the evidence that we have so far for Evolution. I mean the deity might have created all the “evidence” (fossils and the like) to “fool” us into coming up with the “Evolution Theory”…

I’m saying that the “Creationism” uphold by religion(s) is out of the bounds of Science, while “Evolution Theory” is a product of the Scientific Method. Is it the same for you? Or do you make the same kind of “leap of faith” in both matters?


A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Postby neo-dragon » Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:26 pm

I voted for both. I hate it when people act as though they are mutually exclusive. Well, I guess if you believe in the most literal form or creationism (ie. God simply took some dirt and made Adam, a modern human being) then there's not much room for compromise. But there's a lot of evidence supporting the theory of evolution, and it makes quite a bit of sense. Thus, I believe that God created life through evolution.

User avatar
Ela
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:42 pm
Title: Get off my lawn!!
First Joined: 0- 9-2000
Location: Florida

Postby Ela » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:13 pm

What neo said.

Eaquae Legit
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 5185
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:30 pm
Title: Age quod agis
First Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Location: ^ Geez, read the sign.

Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:22 pm


Many religions state that some deity created the Universe EX NIHILO.
Nihil is indeclinable. Good try, but don't try to use Latin to make yourself sound smarter unless you can do it right.

***

In order to contribute: I'm on board with Ela and Neo-dragon, I think. "Guided evolution" is the most common descriptor of that belief.
"Only for today, I will devote 10 minutes of my time to some good reading, remembering that just as food is necessary to the life of the body, so good reading is necessary to the life of the soul." -- Pope John XXIII

User avatar
hive_king
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:48 am
Title: has been eaten by a bear
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Postby hive_king » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:33 am

my questions for creationists...

who created the creator? Somewhere, something HAD to come from nothing.

How did the creator apply its active force and create things and make them change?

Where is the Creator? Heaven or some varient is usually given, but where is Heaven? (this is not an invitation to show us a map of every town named Heaven, that's already been done, thankyouverymuch.)
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

suminonA
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:19 am
Location: Anywhere

Postby suminonA » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:20 am


Many religions state that some deity created the Universe EX NIHILO.
Nihil is indeclinable. Good try, but don't try to use Latin to make yourself sound smarter unless you can do it right.
My source.
And I’m not using Latin to sound smarter. I know I’m not.
I used it because I thought it is a consecrated term so people would know what I’m talking about.

BTW, please correct me when I’m wrong. Being here is a chance to learn (and unlearn) a lot of things. Thanks. :)

A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

anonshadow
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Postby anonshadow » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:50 am

*wince* Please don't use Wikipedia in any kind of semi-serious discussion?

Wikipedia is far too inaccurate and unreliable.



suminonA
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:19 am
Location: Anywhere

Postby suminonA » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:03 am

Yes Sir! I mean ... ma'am, Sir! :P

A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

pooka
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:11 am
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Postby pooka » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:38 am

"I'll be all over your @ss like white on rice!"


who created the creator?
That is a pretty big problem. Which is why I believe in the evolution of supreme intelligence.

Is this a good place to put my chromosome speciation question? Basically, you can have drift of traits, but there has to come a point when you jump to a different number of chromosomes, and that doesn't go too well, no matter how much geologic time you throw at it. Also, haven't we been studying evolution for an eon of fruitfly years? Well, those are my main potshots at strict Darwinism. That and "living fossils".

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Postby neo-dragon » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:41 am

*wince* Please don't use Wikipedia in any kind of semi-serious discussion?

Wikipedia is far too inaccurate and unreliable.
Hey, don't be hard on wiki. Remember there was that thread on pweb 2.0 about it being cited by CBC news? I find that more often than not it's quite accurate and fairly reliable. Mistakes are usually corrected immediately because people who really do know what they are talking about browse quite regularly. [/offtopic]

who created the creator? Somewhere, something HAD to come from nothing.

How did the creator apply its active force and create things and make them change?
Those questions don't just apply to creationists. No matter what you believe in, there's always the question of where the first... anything came from, and how it lead to the creation of everything else.

Dr. Mobius
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:11 pm
Title: Stayin' Alive
First Joined: 17 Aug 2002
Location: Evansville, IN

Postby Dr. Mobius » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:46 pm

(this is not an invitation to show us a map of every town named Heaven, that's already been done, thankyouverymuch.)
Who would do such a thing...? :D


And I agree with neo that a certain someone should quit bitching about wiki's supposed inaccuracy every chance she gets.
The enemy's fly is down.
Image

pooka
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:11 am
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Postby pooka » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:27 pm

I'm more against wiki for being "The Man" personally.

I think the question of the first creator is made moot by God transcending time.

I'm relatively ignorant concerning the big bang. Where did the matter that involved that come from?

User avatar
primevere
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:07 pm
Location: Lethbridge, Canada

Postby primevere » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Wow, this is a really touchy subject especially seeing as I have gone to a Catholic school since elementary school. But I totally believe in both creationism as well as evolution. Basically, who is to say that either one is right or wrong. The best way to describe this conflict between science and religion is that everything has to have started from somewhere. Everything not man created is well designed in all aspects that no one could ever re-create it. I don't believe in the big bang theory but there had to be one starting point, one creator and I believe that that one creator is God. Evolution has been proven, meaning we all adapt and evolve from something. Seeing both sides of the arguement between religion and science, I see that both have an impact on why we all exist the way we do, and how come we are able to function the way that we do.
WSNBM/ONBP

the HiveQueen
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:47 pm
Location: New York City

Postby the HiveQueen » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:44 pm

I would say creationism and evolution, but that comes dangerously close to intelligent design, which I do not believe in because there's no way to prove it (nor should it be taught in science classes at public schools - but that's an issue for another thread).

Being agnostic, yet still being unable to accept that the universe came out of nowhere, my beliefs fall more along the lines of deism. That is, that the world was created and set in motion, and then abandoned. But this is only what I believe when I think it out rationally - when I don't, I like to fantasize that we all only exist in the mind of some morbid teenager. That being said, evolution and creationism would both be illusions.

Just as that argument is absolutely pointless, I would say that trying to figure out whether animals and humans evolved or were created is pointless except for speculation, so my opinion is pretty much nil.

the HiveQueen

vendor
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: In Dicator

Postby vendor » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:07 pm

HiveQueen wrote:
I like to fantasize that we all only exist in the mind of some morbid teenager.
I like to fantasize that I'm that morbid teenager! No, seriously, I believe in both. I understand that both are theories and both have their own evidences. why are we in a galaxy that is such a mess scientists call it the "Milky Way", (might as well call it 'Accidents Happen') I'll never guess. I wish we lived in a galaxy that looked a little more organized.

I believe that god made the phisical laws of the universe. I believe that god stitched together the first DNA strands. I believe that god intended for intelligent life to be here. and I believe god knew how it would all turn out.

User avatar
hive_king
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:48 am
Title: has been eaten by a bear
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Postby hive_king » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:38 pm

It's called the Milky Way because ancient pagans believed that the stars and all that were beads of milk from Hera's breast, as I've been taught.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

vendor
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: In Dicator

Postby vendor » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:55 pm

so... the greeks had a fetish with lactating deities? jk!

I just read that there is a lot of organization to our galaxy... I am so happy! ... it is classified as a "large barred spiral galaxy"

Dr. Mobius
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:11 pm
Title: Stayin' Alive
First Joined: 17 Aug 2002
Location: Evansville, IN

Postby Dr. Mobius » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:16 am

I believe theists can and will distort and rationalize anything and everything to fit into the narrow view given to them by their chosen faith.
The enemy's fly is down.
Image

vendor
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: In Dicator

Postby vendor » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:37 pm

Try changing your perception of what is and what isn't. Evolution is a theory Intelligent Design is a theory. Theists and Atheists have different solutions for the same concerns.

To generalize the majority of the Earth with such a comment is nothing more than foolish arrogance.
...but paranoia is all I have!!

anonshadow
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Postby anonshadow » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:31 am

Try changing your perception of what is and what isn't. Evolution is a theory Intelligent Design is a theory. Theists and Atheists have different solutions for the same concerns.

To generalize the majority of the Earth with such a comment is nothing more than foolish arrogance.
While I agree with your annoyance at Mobius' portrayal of all theists, you've also touched on a peeve of mine--

Yes, evolution--like creation--is a theory. The two are not, however, supported by the same amount of evidence, nor are they both subject to the same kind of scrutiny.

Everything is a theory, at the end of the day. Evolution, however, has a huge amount of evidence--real, tangible evidence--behind it. Does that mean that creation does not and cannot exist?

Of course not.

But the two are not, all things being equal, equal in terms of our evidence supporting both and our ability to continue to gather evidence in regards to both.



Dr. Mobius
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:11 pm
Title: Stayin' Alive
First Joined: 17 Aug 2002
Location: Evansville, IN

Postby Dr. Mobius » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:36 pm

I'd like for someone to point out to me where I said all theists are closed minded fools. I realize they're probably in the minority, but like most things the outspoken minority tends to drown out the silent majority.
The enemy's fly is down.
Image

User avatar
hive_king
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:48 am
Title: has been eaten by a bear
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Postby hive_king » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:19 pm

Vendor, you've fallen for a common mistake. Evolution is a theory, in the sense of a scientific theory that has passed at least a certain threshold of verifability and proof. Intellegent Design, however, would be from the viewpoint of the Scientific Method, be more of a hypothesis, as there is a lack of hard evidence to validate it as a theory.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

anonshadow
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Postby anonshadow » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:01 pm

I'd like for someone to point out to me where I said all theists are closed minded fools. I realize they're probably in the minority, but like most things the outspoken minority tends to drown out the silent majority.
You said:
I believe theists can and will distort and rationalize anything and everything to fit into the narrow view given to them by their chosen faith.



Dr. Mobius
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:11 pm
Title: Stayin' Alive
First Joined: 17 Aug 2002
Location: Evansville, IN

Postby Dr. Mobius » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:40 pm

I believe a small and otherwise insignificant yet quite loud percentage of theists can and will distort and rationalize anything and everything to fit into the narrow view given to them by their chosen faith.

Better?
The enemy's fly is down.
Image

Boothby
Former Speaker
Former Speaker
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:44 pm
Title: Battle School Engineer
Location: MD
Contact:

Postby Boothby » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:19 pm

Creationism AND Evolution?!?

What are you, some sort of AGNOSTIC?
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

User avatar
DEK
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:40 am
Location: Outside

Postby DEK » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:42 am

Several people have mentioned that evolution has a huge amount of supporting evidence. I am usually completely uninterested in biology, and so I have no idea what you're talking about. Can someone point me in the general direction of a collection of evidence so I can study up?

eriador
KillEvilBanned
Posts: 2512
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:02 pm
Location: North Plains, OR (read Portland)

Postby eriador » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:17 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

for a start

i don't have much time to lay out better sites, but wikipedia should cover the main arguments for (and against) evolution.

User avatar
Jebus
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Title: Lord and Saviour
First Joined: 07 Nov 2001

Postby Jebus » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:20 pm

Are you crazy DEK? Don't you know that the supposed "evidence" which supports evolution has secret messages coded into to it to brainwash you into believing that sacriligious nonsense? Haven't you ever noticed that anyone who ever considered the "facts" was instantly convinced of it's truth? I think it was Jesus who said the devil hath power to assume a pleasing shape.

The Bible doesn't mention anything about evolution, does it?

eriador
KillEvilBanned
Posts: 2512
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:02 pm
Location: North Plains, OR (read Portland)

Postby eriador » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:30 pm

I REALLY hope that was a joke...

User avatar
Jebus
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Title: Lord and Saviour
First Joined: 07 Nov 2001

Postby Jebus » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:38 pm

I wish it was a joke, eriador.

eriador
KillEvilBanned
Posts: 2512
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:02 pm
Location: North Plains, OR (read Portland)

Postby eriador » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:17 pm

I'm serious. If you believe that, well, I would be REALLY, REALLY, REALLY worried about the state of humanity.

User avatar
Jebus
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Title: Lord and Saviour
First Joined: 07 Nov 2001

Postby Jebus » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:34 pm

It's the truth, trust me.

Read the Bible, there's nothing in there about evolution. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing God would omit, does it?


Return to “Milagre Town Square”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot] and 47 guests