The Future's Looking Blue

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
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Postby locke » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:09 am

"Well, it certainly does, because our, our next-door neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the executive of."
-Sarah Palin
Paging GrammerNazi! Cleanup on aisle three.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Jebus » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:00 am

"I personally believe..."

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Postby Gravity Defier » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:43 am

Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

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Postby locke » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:31 am

it's just, there's such a much better way to make the point of alaska's neighbors, "ya know, alaska isn't connected to any other states, our closest neighbors are canada and russia. So all the sorts of subjects that a governer might have to talk across state lines about are the sorts of subjects I have to talk across national lines." There. even if she doesn't have a single iota of experience doing anything of the sort, that's a comparison/idea that most people cound understand. it doesn't have to be true, but it does have to be phrased in a way that sells.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby locke » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:37 am

I wonder if there's an over under for wednesday night/thursday morning for Trig suddenly getting sick or Bristol suddenly having complications with her pregnancy, necessitating Palin to bow out of the debate to deal with her faux family emergency?

truthfully I think Palin will do well in the debate, I think everyone on the left has worked so diligently to set the bar so low, that she just has to show up in order to score a win at the debate. Gotta love self destructive leftists. I doubt she will win on an objective scale, on a subjective scale I think she wins in a landslide. bah.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Jebus » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:10 am

That's ridiculous. Biden is going to tear Palin apart and then dance around her corpse doing a tribal african dance. Most likely this will be followed by him defecating on her. She won't be winning any points with anyone.

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Postby Dink_Meeker » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:24 am

This is what happens when Sarah Palin brushes up on her credentionals in foreign politics:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/24/ ... pstoryview
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Postby puppets » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:07 am

What ever happened to the good old days, where the presidential nominees would give everything to make their world a better place, instead of worrying over who has the better face? Right now, I can't help but see the selfishness plaguing our politics, among both the liberal and conservative side. The race, sex, religion card being used as a terms of importance, when it is strictly irrelevent.

If we could find a modern day George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, we would be saved.

And don't take into account their views, whether they are republican or democratic isn't important. What is important is, would they go broke to support this country? Would they turn down their own ambition to protect our ideals we were funded on? Would they do their best to protect this country?

Todays politics and politicians, I feel are just lacking the morality that the ones from long long ago had.

Granted this is totally unplausible, but it would be nice if we had politicians who cared more for doing the best they can for the U.S. and not so much as for themselves. Any politician who tries that though, won't survive long in the market.

Simply put. McCain and Obama, at this point, are one and the same. Heavy smear campaigns, with Obama sending lawyers to dig into Palin's life in Alaska or claiming McCain is too old, or the whole republican side trying to discredit Obama due to his origins as well.

When did politics turn from convincing the people of your beliefs and how you'll do what is in the best interest of the country, into trying to make your competitor look bad.

Politics is just like a very dirty dirty sports game. Everyone talks smack, cheats, and is probably on steroids.
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Postby Jebus » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:04 am

Huh, so what you're trying to say is that there is a weakness in the democratic system, puppets?

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Postby Yebra » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:43 am

What ever happened to the good old days, where the presidential nominees would give everything to make their world a better place, instead of worrying over who has the better face? Right now, I can't help but see the selfishness plaguing our politics, among both the liberal and conservative side. The race, sex, religion card being used as a terms of importance, when it is strictly irrelevent.

If we could find a modern day George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, we would be saved.
I think you're being a little rose-eyed about your history there. Negative campaign's been around forever.

Let's take the 1800 presidential. Jefferson said Adams had a a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman." while Adams' people called Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."

John Adam's campaign said that "murder, robbery, rape, adultery, and incest will be openly taught and practised" if Jefferson was elected and sent riders round spreading rumours that Jefferson had died to discourage people voting for him. On the other hand, Jefferson hired James Callendar (who later did time for this libel) to do a hatchet job on Adams and managed to convince voters that Adams wanted to attack France.

Also: Jefferson was a slave owner. Yes, yes he's a complex historical character, but if that's the best you can do looking back to the golden age it's not a good sign.
And don't take into account their views, whether they are republican or democratic isn't important. What is important is, would they go broke to support this country? Would they turn down their own ambition to protect our ideals we were funded on? Would they do their best to protect this country?
Excuse me? You complain about a lack of substance in politics and then tell people NOT TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POLITICIANS' VIEWS?

There are real differences between the two candidates, sure Obama frustrates the hell out of me and they both buy into things I'd rather they didn't, it doesn't hide the fact that Obama is much much better than McCain. While I'm sympathetic to the idea that to take part in a 'lesser of two evil' contest just perpetuates it, it's plain dumb to say there aren't any differences between the two.
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Postby starlooker » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:48 am

*experiences sudden rush of love for yebra*

In other news, I was watching PBS "Debating Our Destiny" the other night (I finally got a new TV and an antenna. I now get fuzzy PBS, CBS, and ABC.) There were a few clips of the 2000 debates between Al Gore and George W Bush. Watching Jim Lehrer talk about the context of the time, pre-war, planning for a major surplus over the next ten years, then listening to the candidates talk, and then looking at where we are now nearly drove me mad with rage.

ETA: What I'm talking about.
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Postby Young Val » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:36 am

What ever happened to the good old days, where the presidential nominees would give everything to make their world a better place, instead of worrying over who has the better face? Right now, I can't help but see the selfishness plaguing our politics, among both the liberal and conservative side. The race, sex, religion card being used as a terms of importance, when it is strictly irrelevent.

If we could find a modern day George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, we would be saved.
I think you're being a little rose-eyed about your history there. Negative campaign's been around forever.

Let's take the 1800 presidential. Jefferson said Adams had a a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman." while Adams' people called Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."

I was gonna bring up the 1800 election myself. Didn't the aftermath of that one include Vice President Burr dueling and killing Alexander Hamilton?
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Postby Yebra » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:32 pm

In other news, I was watching PBS "Debating Our Destiny" the other night (I finally got a new TV and an antenna. I now get fuzzy PBS, CBS, and ABC.) There were a few clips of the 2000 debates between Al Gore and George W Bush. Watching Jim Lehrer talk about the context of the time, pre-war, planning for a major surplus over the next ten years, then listening to the candidates talk, and then looking at where we are now nearly drove me mad with rage.
Talk about falling down the wrong leg of the trousers of time huh?
I was gonna bring up the 1800 election myself. Didn't the aftermath of that one include Vice President Burr dueling and killing Alexander Hamilton?
Pretty much, because the election was decided in the House in the end Hamilton had a lot to do with Jefferson getting the presidency over Burr and then he campaigned against him vigorously later when he was running for New York governor in '04. Naturally they had to fight over it.

Yes, a much more civilized time.
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Postby puppets » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:35 am

What I mean by, don't take into account their views, is to instead look at what they've done, and how far they will go to uphold the original ideals of freedom and safety for this country. Yes their personal points does matter, but I'd vote for someone who was against my personal preferences, if I knew they would do their best to uphold the foundations thats this country was built on.

Obama and McCain do have differences, but I'm saying they are more the same than different. They both have their good sides and theirr bad sides, but honestly, I don't like the prospect of either one leading America.

And yes Jefferson had slaves. So did alot of people. People who did amazing things in history. It was acceptable at the time. Don't ostracize them for the time they lived in. I don't approve of slavery, and am glad it's over, but it was a different time then.

And I'll probably get yelled at for this, but thats like people in the future looking back at us and ostracizing us for having legal abortions in our day and age. Acceptable now, but in the future, everyone might consider it evil and unorthodox. So at the time, slavery was acceptable, now it isn't.

The whole point is, Jefferson having slaves, had nothing to do with how much he gave to do his best for this country. Maybe he didn't do as much as others did, but the point is he tried and was willing to give his all.

Thats what I'm saying is what we need in today's nominees.

And on another note, it's pathetic when people love watching others get schooled in a political argument. Grow up. I'm not pretending to be politically savy, or even great with words. I'm posting my opinion, and how I view things. Laughing about it is ignorant and immature. I pretty much always considered this site to be full of thoughtful people, who preffered arguing points over looking for subtle ways to throw insults. Not talking to you Yebra, you aren't being insultive, as far as I know.
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Postby Oliver Dale » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:25 am

"Insultive" is my new favorite word.

As for you comment on Obama and McCain, I don't think that Yebra misunderstood you. The point is that you're wrong (and I hope I'm not out of line speaking for Yebra). You may think they are both Evil Politicians, but their differences are both vast and immediate. Unless you simply mean that they are the same in that you don't feel confident about either being President. I could say the same about thirty or forty people, off the top of my head, but that doesn't make them very similar except in that one capacity.

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Postby locke » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:34 am

I think the slavery question was beside the point, the main point is that when we look back on the past we tend to generalize, glamorize and idealize the people who we bother to remember. You know who was probably the best representation of what most people think the founding fathers were like? Abigail Adams, but few people know who she is or her impact on history. the point is that the men you're saying were such obviously better leaders than our candidates today were just as human in their time as our candidates are today, even though we no longer think of people like Jefferson and Washington as human. The election of 1800 was a vicious, nasty affair, it showed the foul sides of both men's characters. Adams should have probably served a second term, but Jefferson was so egotistical that he did anything in his power to grab the power he felt he deserved. Jefferson was not a very nice person. he was a very vain person, very bad at managing finances, or even his own estates. He had a brilliant mind, but like many geniuses, his personal qualities were quite lacking. Adams was no great saint either.

Or look at a person who is probably one of the most shrewd and conniving politicians in the history of the world. Abraham Lincoln. here's a fellow with essentially no qualifications, who wasn't much well liked during his one elected office, and failed to unseat an incumbant the next time he ran who through a brilliant series of self promotions and well received speeches managed through a variety of backroom deals to secure the presidential nomination of his party in a manner that would be absolutely decried today as the worst sort of foul politicking and secrecy. His election was so roundly disliked that it was enough to precipitate half the country into rebelling against his leadership via open war. But we remember him today as our greatest president. And he was a phenomenal leader and president and deserves that appelation, but shift your perspective just a bit, and you see that this flawless man is just as bad and human and unworthy to hold up the original ideals of freedom and safety for the country as you claim either of the two candidates are today.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Yebra » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:49 am

locke that Lincoln paragraph is made of awesome.
And yes Jefferson had slaves. So did alot of people. People who did amazing things in history. It was acceptable at the time. Don't ostracize them for the time they lived in. I don't approve of slavery, and am glad it's over, but it was a different time then.

And I'll probably get yelled at for this, but thats like people in the future looking back at us and ostracizing us for having legal abortions in our day and age. Acceptable now, but in the future, everyone might consider it evil and unorthodox. So at the time, slavery was acceptable, now it isn't.

The whole point is, Jefferson having slaves, had nothing to do with how much he gave to do his best for this country. Maybe he didn't do as much as others did, but the point is he tried and was willing to give his all.
How acceptable is it to judge historical figures for doing things that we find abhorrent is an interesting question. I tend to come down on the line that if the practice was itself criticised at the time then it's fair game.

I can't judge Medieval English government for sucking and failing to turn itself into a democracy because the concepts necessary didn't exist. So if Jefferson existed in a society where slavery was totally unquestioned and the idea of it being unjust didn't exist, I would not judge Jefferson for owning slaves - it is unreasonable for us today to ask him to come up with it on his own.

However, Jefferson existed in a time where slavery was questioned, not just quietly but publicly. It was a divide that was already sticking it's hand into every major conflict of the day, the threat of Abolition southern slaveholders saw (however inaccurately) coming from Britain was a factor in their support for independence. The Constitution itself bares scars from a country divided over the issue. That the notion that slavery was wrong had never been suggested to Jefferson is clearly impossible. In fact, we know it was because the bit where this gets interesting is that not only did Jefferson know people who thought slavery was wrong - he himself was publicly opposed to slavery.

It turns out whilst he publicly condemned slavery he was privately so much in debt he didn't consider himself able to afford giving them up. So to be uncharitable this was someone who was willing to hold other people in slavery to hold him up - Whatever else his accomplishments I'm not sure that meets your high standards of 'giving their all' for the ideals he himself wrote into the Declaration of Independence.
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Postby puppets » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:11 pm

You all make really great points, and I'm not being sarcastic about that, but I still have this strong belief, that as our world back then was able to develop and actually progress to better conditions, now that isn't the case.

The people that should be making this happen whole heartedly, the politicians, seem to have no progressive attitude, and the ones that do, don't have the backbone to actually pull it off.

And I was never arguing whether Jefferson had slaves or didnt or approved of it. Someone just brought up that he had them, and I was arguing that at that point in time, it was more or less in the same boat as the abortion issue is today.

But I still stand by my initial decision that we have no good choices for presidency.

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Truth be told, I didn't realize I typed insultive, it was probably me typing fast, thinking of another word and typing that one. As I said before though, I am not politically intelliogent, or even that smart period, but this is an open forum so I might as well post how I view things.
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Postby Yebra » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:10 pm


But I still stand by my initial decision that we have no good choices for presidency.
That'd I'd kind of agree with, but Rahl was right that my objection is that you were wrong about the candidates being too similar. After all, if we made a list of all the things they agree on (democracy good, slavery bad, earth round, etc) we could go on to thousands and the key few dozen issues they disagree on would seem small in comparison to the huge bulk. But that wouldn't mean anything.

The problem isn't that they're similar, there'd still be this problem even if you had Stalin standing against Reagan - too much divide is not a choice either. The problem is that two candidates is not enough for a country of 300 million people.

It's ridiculous that there are only two serious candidates for President - but 3rd parties are locked out because the electoral college requires concentrated victories as opposed to general support and they're disliked as 'stealing' votes from the mainstream candidate...as if the votes already belonged to them. It doesn't have to be that way, ranked ballots have been around forever, they were even used in America before the backlash to the civil rights movement threw them out. The National Popular Vote program works well as a solution for getting around the college without a Constitutional amendment. But even given the 2000 election and the likelihood of close elections in the foreseeable future no one seems to be paying much attention to issues like that.

Parties should at least incorporate them into their selection process. Primaries with ranked votes (and an end to the godawful undemocratic caucuses) would mean people are free to vote for people other than the mainstream candidates without feeling like they're throwing their vote away (if a candidate withdraws, it'd just redistribute the vote) and importantly, guarantee the eventual victor a plurality of the vote. None of this waiting around for the super-delegates crap. A simple, democratic, unquestionable outcome.

But I don't see that happening, because perhaps unsurprisingly the birthplace of modern democracy is a few centuries behind the times. It's not much better here though, most people who voted in the UK 2005 general election voted for candidates other than those who were elected. Over 60% of MPs had more people vote against them than for them. And that's just those that bothered voting - people not voting outnumbered those who voted for the governing party WHICH ENDED UP WITH A REASONABLE MAJORITY.

And it all comes down to the fundamental problem that our shared system of putting one X in one box and only caring who has most is a simplistic and increasingly stupid way to run elections. It is mechanically incapable of providing choice.
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Postby locke » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:13 pm

One interesting (if somewhat unintended) positive of the electoral college is that it acts as a levy against regional factionalization. The united states is a huge ass country, and if we had Bob Barr as a legit candidate running in the southeast, Bloomberg/Obama as legit candidates running in the northeast, Biden/Clinton as legit candidates in the Rust Belt, Ron Paul running in the texas/oklahoma region, Huckabee in the bible belt and Villaragosa and Mccain running on the west coast/southwest. I kind of like having a president elected by half the country, rather than one that's elected by just the northeast, or just the south+texas, or just the midwest. and so on and so forth.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Yebra » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:26 am

That's fixable if you build in something similar to the French double ballot system. The candidates are eliminated in ascending order of votes and votes redirected until there are two left - then there's a second run-off election with just those two. Too risky not to campaign across the country and the eventual winner will have a direct majority of the vote instead of just 'person most people didn't hate'.
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Postby locke » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:23 am

my first question about the french system is what the participation levels are like. Does voter participation go down or go up as you eliminate candidates?

I'm still worried and I'm going to remain very worried about this election right up until we have 100% of precincts reporting in.

I'd also like to point out that I think the whole concept of the popular liberal sneering comment "what's the matter with kansas" (which refers to the white working class voting against their economic self interest) misses the cause entirely. The reason the white working class has drifted republican is that democrats have done nothing to secure union jobs. A union job is a steady job, a secure job, with reliable benefits, pension and raises. An electorate with a large percentage of it as union is a very stable electorate, it smooths out the good times bad times ups and downs of the economy. Democrats and liberals, instead of asking what's the matter with kansas, and snidely dismissing their former voters as too stupid to know 'what's best' need to first shoulder the blame for not rigorously preserving the good jobs they let get eliminated.

and the impact of a large union labor force on the housing market should be clear. a 30 year mortgage makes sense if you plan on staying in your job for 30 years, doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the economy of my generation. With a wildly volatile economy we're going to have a wild career path, and that's the sort of thing we don't want.

And you want people to own houses, because when you have an electorate that does nothing but rent you get slumlords and soon enough we're in a Dickensian situation.

I feel like there are so many indirect and direct causes of this whole housing/economic mess that are simply not being addressed because they are cultural wide nebulous shifts and subtle patterns in behavior (not talking about living on credit, that's too totalizing an explanation) that have dramatic repurcussions. I think that there's a whole host of butterfly effects going on here just in terms of attitude, and all the rescue money in the world isn't going to fix something that has a hearts and minds component.

And I don't think Barack Obama is going to change all that, but I think he's one of a very few politicians who are even capable of recognizing the complexity of the issue, and at least he's willing to talk about that.

Right now I'm feeling like Morgan Freeman at the end of Shawshank Redemption. I don't know what I"m going to find when this trip is over, but, "I hope."
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby locke » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:17 pm

Sarah Palin said:
Yeah absolutely and it's not just my executive experience will be put to good use as some good in this world and America that is a nation just of exceptionalism so much to offer and so much opportunity here and hope here and what we need to do is allow that opportunity to be seized by the people who live here government not getting in their way but government being put back on their side so that our families and businesses can grow and prosper and thrive and John McCain and I so sharing of that world view and how we're gonna get there it's gonna be good for this nation.
Grignr?
I know all these words, but I just can't parse this.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Rei » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:50 pm

Wow, that's some lung capacity!
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Postby daPyr0x » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:42 pm

Alright, so the final presidential debate is on right now. I've watched bits of all of them (including the rather humourous vice presidential debate, and the much better version SNL made), and though I am nothing more than a landed immigrant in the US I've gotta say. I sincerely pity America, and all of it's people, should McCain get the presidency. I mean, even if you subscribe to the idea that both candidates should be shot, at least if you elect Obama you've got Biden as a backup. Can you imagine what will happen when McCain dies of a heart attack and suddenly Palin is the president? I'd rather elect Laura Bush; and I blame Bush for a lot of what is wrong with this country right now.

I've seen slander ads, ads downplaying eachothers' experiences, ads that are just there to put a name on the screen; but I have never seen someone so childishly continue to attack a person they're debating, based upon a single experience with a single American, and finish off every line with a smug smile like they're somehow patting themselves on the back for not going off like a raving lunatic in front of the crowd.

I'll be honest, I've not been a McCain supporter since I started learning about both candidates and what they stood for. I disagree with his policies as being the best for his country. That doesn't mean I hate the man. All I had to do was watch 10 minutes of this debate to realize that yes, I do hate the man. I mean, I am impressed, he's been able to do this debate without looking like a complete moron reading line by line off a sheet or teleprompter. He hasn't, however, been able to pull of the debate without looking like more than an aged child, barely able to contain himself when someone says something he doesn't like, using the same "yeah, well, your mom...." argument against any rebuttal, and smiling like a donkey whenever he's finished. I don't care what side you're on, look at John McCain any time he finishes speaking and tell me he doesn't have a smug "hah! I got you!" face on.
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"If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy I could have won"
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locke
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Postby locke » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:50 pm

Image

"We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses. Wicked, tricksy, false!"
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Craig » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:57 pm

An interesting debate... McCain did better than he has in the prior two debates but in the end still didn't do a whole lot. I honestly do not understand his campaign. First they attack Obama for lack of experience, then go out and get Palin. Then they attack Obama for policies. Then the economy takes center stage and rather than talking about issues they want to talk about Obama's character and his affiliations. Meanwhile, they don't let Palin speak to any press or reporters, then sit her down in a one on one interview with some of America's toughest journalists and essentially throw her to the wolves. Follow it up with two debates where McCain has come across as out of touch and just confused. Is it any wonder they're 8-10 points down in the polls? This campaign has been handled worse than Hilary Clinton's.

Salaam

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Wil
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Postby Wil » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:23 pm

The only thing I'm worried about is Biden's record on backing laws that are essentially pro MPAA/RIAA. You think this weeks Copyright Czar is bad... I'd hate to see what Biden might put his support behind.

I know Obama is very pro-net neutrality... but the fact that he choose a VP that is so... pro RIAA/MPAA scares me a bit. Especially considering my right to be a pirate and to have a neutral internet are really the only things I care about in this election. Well, not totally, but they're kind of important to me... being such an active net-user.

On the flip side, McCain has (I believe) made comments against net neutrality and also has insinuated that a draft might be... needed at some point. Of course, he's also made comments saying that he isn't for a draft also so... he must have been suffering from a fit of the brain-farts.


Where is our pirate party at?! Arr!

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Postby Oliver Dale » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:31 pm

Did anyone see the Alfred E. Smith Memorial dinner speeches? I have to say that I was quite surprised. McCain was damn funny and even moving at moments. That was a good day for him.

At any rate... I've voted. Don't you think that should earn me the right to not hear any more election commercials?

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Postby Gravity Defier » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:57 pm

I saw Obama's last night; I'll be watching McCain's later since I heard it was his best yet.

ETA: I just watched McCain's.

They both had their funny moments.



It's nice to see politicians act human. :)
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

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locke
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Postby locke » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:13 pm

So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Gravity Defier » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:26 pm

Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

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Postby locke » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:27 am

everyone should watch the full 7 minute endorsement. It's clear, concise, well reasoned and very impressive.

I sort of think more important than Powell's endorsement was the fact he said , "But the really right answer is, 'what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?' the answer's no, that's not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year old Muslim American kid believing he or she could be president? Yet I've heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, 'he's a Muslim and he might be associated with terrorists.' This is not the way we should be doing it in America"

and the picture Powell referred to in his endorsement

Image


also his followup press conference, also remarkable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-1c0H1-zbc
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Wil
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Postby Wil » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:52 am

Huh. Good stuff. I like this man. Imagine if we had him as the republican presidential nominee...


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