The Guys not talking about Guy Stuff Thread

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

Best regular shaving option?

At the Barbar, hot towels, the whole works
0
No votes
Safety razor
2
17%
cartridge razor
3
25%
Blade Razor
2
17%
Straight Edge Razor
1
8%
I never, ever shave my face
4
33%
 
Total votes: 12

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Postby Rei » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:00 pm

I think there is a distinction to be made between a thought that involuntarily flits through the mind versus a thought that is dwelt upon.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
~Blaise Pascal


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Postby Eddie Pinz » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:08 pm

I agree. But on that question, I would certainly be in the "I might be tempted" class. There have been similar experiences as to the one in my last post, and if that isn't temptation, then I don't know what is. But apparently that isn't good enough it seems. I see the first two options as "I don't cheat" period.

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Postby Petrie » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:40 pm

Ah, the threesome one. Now I have to go and think; crap.

I've dedicated quite a bit of time and thought to the whole threesome idea over the years, talking about it with brothers, friends (male and female), I think a boyfriend-person and just reflecting on the whole thing by myself.

The questions I've asked my male friends/brothers with regards to it is "What's the appeal? What's so special about it? Why can't you be satisfied with one person?" They usually answer "It means two of everything and one is so great!" I don't quite understand that as justification because the idea of two penises doesn't do much for me. More on that later.

To be honest, I've thought about whether or not I'd personally like to have one and I started wondering that after having seen it in porn. (Yes, I watch it and yes, I've thoroughly enjoyed pretty much everything I've watched from start to finish). On screen, very detached from where I'm sitting, I have to admit, I think it's hot/sexy. Who am I kidding? It's attractive people having sex and maybe I'm a pervert for enjoying watching attractive people have sex but I do.

The idea of it turns me on where I am involved in the fantasy of it and not the reality. (And that, I think, is why I ask the questions above...I get the fantasy aspect of it but in practice, I think most guys really would partake in the experience if they could whereas I would not. The appeal doesn't cross over for me.)

If I ever did participate, it'd have to be with two men and I'd still need to primarily interact with my SO; I'm not sure I'd be okay with being touched by another guy. But that basically leaves the SO and the guy and most guys won't go for that and I don't necessarily want to see that anyway; that's my SO they're touching and only I should be able to do that. I'm very possessive and jealous. I say it'd have to be another male because I would flip a lid over another female.

"Is he comparing her to me, even subconsciously? Is she better than I am at performing certain acts? Is he not attracted to me and that's why he wants her in here? Because I'm happy with just him." would be things I'd worry about. Not only that, I intellectually understand sex != love and most guys are good at internalizing that knowledge; I'm not. I'd probably never recover from the insecurity having another female join us would bring.

Given all that, it just makes more sense to skip it.

On that survey, 63% said they haven't had one but would like to. The chances are pretty high that I'll end up with someone who has not and would like to and while I hope to try many, many things, that's simply not one of them. It's something anyone I'm serious with will have had to try before I came along (and get over not getting again) or they'd have to dump me to go get it.

Which leads me back to, "What's the appeal?"


I don't know if that made sense.

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Postby Rei » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:49 pm

I see the first two options as "I don't cheat" period.
As did I when I read it. My first read just saw two different reasons for not cheating.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:03 pm

I think men say that they'd like to try a threesome the same way they say that they'd like to win $1 million. It's not something that's really needed or expected. It's just a fantasy, and one that I think is often motivated by the potential bragging rights of being able to say "I banged two chicks at once!" as much as any actual sexual desire to do so.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:12 pm

Now I have to go and think.
"There I go and start think."
Step softly; a dream lies buried here.

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Postby jotabe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:16 am

I think is often motivated by the potential bragging rights of being able to say "I banged two chicks at once!" as much as any actual sexual desire to do so.
I'd even say that any actual sexual desire is often motivated by the potential bragging rights.
I mean, it's not as if sex was actually enjoyable by itself.

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Postby daPyr0x » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:27 am

I thought this was interesting and belonged here

5 stupid, unfair, and sexist things expected of men

[edit] As requested...
If you have a scrap of progressive politics in your bones, it's no surprise to you that sexism hurts women. Like, duh. That's kind of the definition of the word.

But we don't talk as much about how sexism hurts men. Understandably. When you look at the grotesque ways women are damaged by sexism -- from economic inequality to political disenfranchisement to literal, physical abuse -- it makes perfect sense that we'd care more about how sexism and patriarchy and rigid gender roles affect women, than we do about how they affect men.

But men undoubtedly get screwed up by this stuff, too. Not screwed up as badly as women, to be sure... but not trivially, either. I care about it. And I think other feminists -- and other women and men who may not see themselves as feminists -- ought to care about it, too.

I care about this stuff for a lot of reasons. I care because I have men and boys in my life, men and boys who matter to me: I see how they get twisted into knots by gender roles that are not only insanely rigid but impossibly contradictory, and it makes me sick and sad and seriously pissed off. I care because I care about justice: fair is fair, and I don't want to solve the problem of gender inequality by making things suck worse for men.

And I care for entirely pragmatic, even Machiavellian reasons. I care because I care about feminism... and I think one of the best things we can do to advance feminism is to get more men on board. If we can convince more men that sexism screws up their lives, too -- and that life shared with free and equal women is a whole lot more fun -- we're going to get a lot more men on our side. (Like the bumpersticker a friend once had on her truck: "Feminists f*** Better.")

So I've been looking more carefully at the specific ways sexism hurts men. In particular, I've been looking at our society's expectations of men, our very definitions of maleness. I've been looking at how rigid and narrow many of these expectations are, creating a razor-thin window of acceptable manly behavior that you'd have to be a professional tightrope walker to navigate. (Which would be a problem, since "professional tightrope walker" is definitely outside the parameters of acceptable manliness.) I've been looking at how so many of these expectations are not only rigid, but totally contradictory, creating a vision of idealized manhood that's not just ridiculous but literally unattainable. And I've been asking the men in my life -- friends, colleagues, family members, community members, guys I know on the Internet -- what kinds of expectations they get about Being A Man and how those expectations affect them.

Here is a list of five:

1. Fight, fight, fight! When I did my informal, unscientific poll of the men in my life and asked what was expected of them as men, this one came up a lot. Like, a lot a lot. Like, an amount that took me seriously by surprise. My slice of society -- and the slice shared by most men I know -- is comfortably middle-class: educated, chatty, civilized to a fault, and mostly very peaceful. We resolve our conflicts with words, with glares, with strategies, with the law as a last resort. Even raised voices and insulting language are considered somewhat outre. Not counting sporting events, I could count on one hand the number of physical fights I've witnessed in the last decade. Or even threats of physical fights.

And yet, man after man that I talked to brought this one up. The willingness to, as my friend Michael put it, "actually, physically, with fists or other weapons, fight" -- to defend one's honor (or the honor of one's lady, or country, or sports team, or whatever) -- is more central to how men are taught to see manhood than I had any notion of. Even if conflicts never get that far -- even if you never actually have to pound anyone with your fists -- being both willing and able to do so is a weirdly high priority in the Penis Club. As Adam said, "You would rather get a concussion than be called less than a man." And Damion told me this story: "I'm in the passenger seat when my (relatively butch) sister-in-law flips off some guy in Baltimore traffic. He jumps out of the car, enraged, and my first thought is 'Great, now I've got to beat the s*** out of this guy.'"

Which puts men in a nasty conundrum. The laws and expectations of our civilized society are designed to keep physical violence to a minimum. And for good reason: physical violence is, you know, destructive. So men are expected -- indeed required -- to avoid and deflect confrontation, and to resolve conflicts without resorting to violence.

And when they do, they get called pussies.

Nice.

2. Be a good husband/partner/lover -- but don't care too much what women think.

This one falls squarely into the category of "not just insanely rigid but logically contradictory" -- a damned if you do, damned if you don't conundrum that ensures a lifetime of self-conscious anxiety if you let yourself take it seriously. Being a good husband and father -- a good provider who cares for his family and treats women with respect -- is central to the male mythos. And being good in bed has become a crucial part of this mythos as well. It's no longer enough for a Real Man to nail a lot of women: he has to get every single one of them off. Performance anxiety -- it's not just for hard-ons anymore! Not that I have any problem with the idea that women's sexual pleasure ought to matter to men who have sex with them. The problem lies with the notion that women's sexual pleasure is entirely men's responsibility; that pleasing women ought to be completely instinctive; that women's satisfaction is a victory to be achieved instead of an experience to be shared; and that this satisfaction has to be accomplished entirely with the man's hard dick, and not with his hands or tongue or toys or mind. (But that's a rant for another time.)

Yet at the same time, men aren't supposed to care too much what women think. Years ago, when I was married to a man, we were trying to make some difficult decisions together about how to arrange our careers and lives (would he work full-time and maybe even overtime to help put me through grad school?). When he asked the guys he worked with for feedback and advice, he mostly got a load of derision for involving me too much in his decisions about his job. "Pussywhipped," I believe, was the charming terminology being used. Yes, he was supposed to be a good provider and build the financial foundation for our life... but he was somehow supposed to accomplish this without asking me what kind of life I wanted, and without any willingness to compromise about what kind of life he wanted. For himself, or for the two of us. I guess he was supposed to be The Decider.

Of course, while it was horribly unmanly for him to be guided by his wife, it was perfectly fine for him to be guided by the guys he worked with at the auto shop. As Scott said, the TV show "'King of Queens' is a good example, I think because though he tries to be a good husband and companion, he often finds himself in conflict with what his friends want or with his own sense of what should be considered masculine." Men's definitions of manhood are supposed to come from other men -- not from women. They're just not supposed to care all that much what women think of them.

You see this a lot in fashion advice for men. Men aren't supposed to look like dorks or slobs, of course... but they can't look like they care about their looks, either. Men -- straight men, anyway -- have to achieve that perfect, razor's edge balance between good grooming and carelessness. You're supposed to look good -- but those good looks have to seem effortless. Looking like you care how you look makes you look like a woman. Or a gay man. (More on that in a tic.) Women are supposed to be the ones prettying themselves up into objects of desire. Men are not supposed to be the objects of desire. They're supposed to be the subjects. And subjects aren't supposed to care what their objects think of them.

Except when they're trying to get those objects to come.

[facepalm]

3. Be hot to trot. Always. With anybody.

This is another expectation that came up with striking (although hardly surprising) frequency. Men are supposed to want sex -- and be ready for sex -- all the time. With pretty much anyone of the right gender who makes themselves available for it. In his evaluation of male gender roles, Michael T. says, "To be a man you must use sexual conquest as a gauge for manhood." Jraoul quoted a song, Lou Christie's "Lightning Strikes," with lyrics that go, "When I see her lips begging to be kissed, I can't stop, I can't stop myself... When I see a sign that she wants to make time, I can't stop, I can't stop myself...." And in his litany of male gender expectations, my friend Michael listed, "Have sex with any woman who says yes, or who offers herself. If not, I must be gay, right?"

It's weird. An intense, even predatory sexual desire is a big part of the Manly Man picture. And yet that picture doesn't allow for men to have preferences. Or rather: They're allowed and even expected to have preferences -- as long as those preferences conform with social norms. I vividly remember an article from a late '60s Playboy, analyzing men's personalities based on what kind of female bodies they liked: liking big breasts made you cool, while liking big butts or legs meant you were immature. And that's hardly a relic of the '60s: even today, lots of men feel pressured to date women who meet the current standards of female attractiveness. Lots of men, for instance, feel pressured to date fashionably thin women: even if they personally prefer women with more meat on their bones, they feel embarrassed introducing them to their buddies. Like dating a fat chick is a slam on their ego. Like it means they're not high enough on the primate status ladder to acquire a high-status mate.

So yes, men are allowed to be hotter for some girls than others. But they're still supposed to get it on with anything that moves and spreads its legs. Anything female and not grotesque, anyway. Men are expected to have sexual desire... but that desire can't be their own. It can't be idiosyncratic. Or even all that personal. It can't belong to them.

And for the sweet love of Loki and all the gods in Valhalla, it can't be based on emotion.

4. Stiff upper lip.

Because for men, nothing at all can be based on emotion. Generic sexual desire, and the desire to punch someone's lights out, are pretty much the only emotions men are supposed to experience. And if they have the gall (or the lack of self-control) to experience their emotions, they bloody well better not let on about it.

This one is so common, it's almost ubiquitous. At least half the men I talked to made a point about it... and a bunch of the ones who didn't mention it explicitly alluded to it in other ways. David B. says he learned that men are supposed to be "reserved emotionally. Apparently men are only supposed to be passionate about sex, cars, sports and beer. And even then, passionate is not the 'appropriate' way for a man to describe his feeling about something."

David M. got the same memo: "No whining, no complaining, and no crying." Michael T., got it, too: "To be a man you must be non emotional and disconnected." And the other Michael: "Have no emotional intelligence / don't show too many emotions." Andrew says he learned that a man "is supposed to be hard as nails and is to show no emotion." Jason learned that being a man means "not showing emotion, being 'tough' so to speak -- and that one is from peers, family and all of the above." Dean points out "the usual messages about big boys don't cry (yes, we do) and how a real man doesn't complain (yes, they do)." Scott also points to "the boys-don't-cry mantra." Ben T. says, "I hate the fact that men can't be scared of anything." James says he learned to appear emotionless so effectively that "I did not shed a single tear when my dad died during heart surgery." And Georges points out, "It always amazed me how brave I had to be to allow my feelings to show."

This one, I would argue, is more crippling than all the rest combined. I, personally, might be able to manage a life where I always had to be willing to fight or f***; where I had to walk an impossible tightrope between caring what my partner thought without caring too much; where I had to twist myself into knots to avoid any hint that I might be attracted to people of the same sex. (See below.) But a life where I had to deny my most basic animal emotions -- love and fear, passion and grief -- just to not get treated as a gender freak? That would send me screaming 'round the bend. (More than I already am, I mean.)

5. Fear of being perceived as gay.

This is kind of a funny one. Acceptance of actual homosexuality has increased by a staggering amount in the last few decades. In less than 40 years, the LGBT rights movement has gone from fighting for our right to not be put in mental institutions and lobotomized, to fighting for our right to get legally married. (And, okay, the right to not be fired from our jobs or kicked out of the U.S. military... but still.) And social acceptance of queers has paralleled our political acceptance. If you actually are a gay man, the "Don't be even a little bit gay" message is being replaced, more and more every day, with the message, "Well... okay."

But if you're a straight man? It's a very different story. In TV shows and movies, homosexual panic is still a reliable source of comic hijinks. Wacky situations in which straight men are mistaken for gay -- Chandler and Joey on "Friends" being out together with a baby, the "Not that there's anything wrong with that" gag on "Seinfeld" -- these are a staple of modern comedy. And that staple is usually stapled to the assumption that, for straight men, being mistaken for gay is a humiliating blow to their masculinity. You see it in fashion/ dating/ etiquette advice for men, too, which often focuses to an almost hysterical degree on walking that razor- thin line between looking like an urbane, sophisticated man of the world... while still, for the sweet love of Jesus, not being mistaken for gay.

And you definitely see it in some very common male sexual fears. I've read way too many letters to way too many sex advice columns from way too many straight men saying they like -- how shall I put this delicately? -- being on the receiving end of anal pleasure... but don't want to explore this eminently delightful activity, because they're afraid it means they're gay. Or because their female partners are afraid it means they're gay. (Somewhat testy note to straight men and their female partners: No, it doesn't. Wanting a woman to f*** you in the ass does not make you gay. Any more than wanting a woman to suck your cock does. Please.)

Now, I will say that these attitudes are beginning to change. The advances of the LGBT movement have freed things up for straights as well as queers, and the younger generation is a lot more fluid and casual about sexual orientation than mine ever was. As my friend Ben pointed out, "The loosening of roles that accompanied feminism and the gay rights movement probably benefited straight men at least as much as it did women and gay men... Witness metrosexuality: now that being mistaken for gay isn't a disaster, men have more fashion leeway." And Adam, who describes himself as "effeminate, though heterosexual," says that being assumed to be gay "gave me a pass on some of the more restrictive rules of masculinity. After all, nobody really bothered to tell me to 'man up' when I sounded 'fruity' anyway."

But at the same time, as gay visibility has increased, the likelihood of being mistaken for gay has gone way, way up. And as a result, the number of opportunities for anxious, gay-panic freakouts has gone up as well. Being mistaken for gay isn't as disastrous as it once was -- it's more of a laugh line and less of a petrifying threat -- but it also happens a lot more often. And the anxiety it still creates for a lot of straight men is a lot more constant... even if it isn't as severe.

So What Now?

And I've just barely started. I don't have nearly enough space here to write the full-length novel I could write on this subject. I've skipped some of the biggest and most important gender expectations of men: the expectations of competition, of status consciousness, of financial success, strength and athleticism, leadership skills, mechanical skills, easy erectile functionality, a dehumanizing attitude towards women, giving a crap about sports. Heck, men get a clear social message that, in order to be manly, they have to be tall. What the heck are you supposed to do about that?

What the heck are any of us supposed to do about any of this?

Well, having unloaded all this depressing crap, I think it's important to deliver some good news: There are ways out of this, and around it, and through it. A lot of men I talked about this said that yes, they were certainly aware of the rigid expectations held of them as men... but they didn't personally feel hugely constrained by them. Sure, they were aware of these expectations. But they also felt comfortable rejecting them. Or embracing the parts they liked, and rejecting the parts they didn't. Or subverting them, in creative and fun and sexy ways.

And many men pointed out that, while they're certainly getting a super-sized serving of narrow, stupid cultural messages about How To Be A Man, they're also getting a decent helping of smarter, broader messages about Not Listening To That Stupid s***. Plenty of men have gotten spiffy, role-modely lessons and examples about being non-violent, respectful of women, emotionally honest, sexually honest, and just generally their own best selves... from sources ranging from pop culture icons to their own fathers and mothers. As jraoul pointed out, "Do I think men are given rigid and/or narrow expectations about maleness? Well, sure! And we are also given fluid and/or wide ones. Depends on who's doing the giving."

Admittedly, because of my own personality and proclivities, the men in my life tend to be -- how shall we put this? -- outside the mainstream of conventional American society. ("Big nerdy pinko freaks" would be another way to put it.) And a lot of them are gay or bi, which skews the sampling even more. But just like lots of feminist women are able to laugh off the sitcoms and billboards and women's magazines and live however the frack we want, lots of feminist men are able to unload the John Wayne/Cary Grant/"What kind of man reads Playboy" crap they got loaded with -- or, depending on their generation, the Rambo/Tom Cruise/Maxim magazine crap -- and just get on with their lives.

Different people feel more affected by gender expectations than others. Some of us -- women and men alike -- still hear these voices in the back of our heads, still feel them shaping our reflexes, still see a need to consciously drag these messages into the light so we know how to recognize them and have an easier time tossing them overboard. And some folks -- again, both women and men -- feel like this is really not that big a deal. Yes, they say, society wants men to be one way and women to be another. Who cares what society wants? For some people, it takes years of introspection and therapy and processing to unload this junk. Some people never unlearn it, in fact; some people let their whole lives be run by it. And other people seem to unload it just by deciding to do it.

So I don't know what to tell you about how to do that.

All I can tell you is that it's totally worth it.
Last edited by daPyr0x on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby CezeN » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:01 am

Can someone copy paste what the link says?

Everytime I try to go, my computer whines, bitches, and moans - and then the window freezes.
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Postby Caspian » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:16 pm

I agree with all five of those (agree that they are stupid, unfair, sexist, and expected of men, not agree that they are how things should be).
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Postby jotabe » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:12 pm

I thought this was interesting and belonged here

5 stupid, unfair, and sexist things expected of men
Of course you, being the hammer of pussies you are, will disagree with any of those five things being stupid, unfair or sexist, right? :wink:
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Postby daPyr0x » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:36 pm

I thought this was interesting and belonged here

5 stupid, unfair, and sexist things expected of men
Of course you, being the hammer of pussies you are, will disagree with any of those five things being stupid, unfair or sexist, right? :wink:
While I will take the unintended double-entendre of your statement as a compliment, I maintain amusement at your ability to stretch things far beyond their context. In fact, as someone whose outward identity has been associated with "gay" by those who surround me for most of my life, I'd actually suggest that the content of that article is far more poignant than anything. I only call people pussies when they're incapacitated by their own fears and emotions, unwilling to rise above to achieve their goal.
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Postby jotabe » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:00 pm

*checks dictionary for poignant* 8)

Well, you know my motto:
"Jota Be, stretching things far beyond their context since 1979" :lol:

As long as someone is amused by it, the post was worth it ;)
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Postby CezeN » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:16 pm

Anyone kind enough to paraphrase what the five things are,
or are we going to just ignore what I asked?
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Postby Young Val » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:49 pm

...Cam edited his original post to quote the article.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby CezeN » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:23 pm

Didn't notice, thanks for saying. :)
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Postby Gravity Defier » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:48 am

Important question, worthy of bumping this from the second page:

Why do you gentleman types not wear suspenders and vests?
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:58 am

Most originally, vests are worn as part of a three-piece suit. This is fine for most regions in America, but not as tenable in the hot and arid southwest. As Hollywood came to be the conduit through which a lot of pop culture flowed, and most of the stars were wearing two-piece suits, often of lighter fabrics, the vest stood as an obvious visual contrast between the younger pop culture of the west and the older culture of the east. Vests seem old-timey when worn with a suit. Nowadays the only people frequently seen in three-piece suits are lawyers or other people whose jobs call for them to dress conservatively, or people intentionally trying to invoke that aesthetic.

The only other connotations that are common with vests are serving staff - not something you want to risk appearing as.

Suspenders are similarly complicated - I think the primary reason for the switchover is that belts are more practical for manual labor, especially if you've got tools or some such conveniently stored there, and in America, since the days of Andrew Jackson, anyone who can be distinguished in such an obvious way from the working man is an elitist. As corporate office work became the relatable norm after the baby boom, though, suspenders became more acceptable for "everyman" attire, but a different sort of everyman. The eighties were brutal to them, though, as they became uniform pieces for super-nerds like Urkel and ruthless businessmen like Gordon Gekko.

Suspenders are still rare, but vests are making something of a comeback, mostly due to how visually distinct they are from both a simply dress shirt and a blazer - they avoid both bland anonymity while maintaining proper business attire, making them popular for the new breed of creative types that have thrived off the expansion of the internet, and it's a style that's increasingly mimicked.
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:33 am

With that out of the way, I'd like to weigh in on the 5 Sexist Expectations article.

On the first point, about fighting, I agree that men shouldn't be billed as hyper-aggressive brawlers who are always looking to settle things by fists before words. However, I do think it's legitimate to expect a man to be willing and capable of dealing with a violent situation when necessary. Saying "This isn't how civilized people air their grievances!" when someone or something poses a threat to you, let alone to someone you love isn't going to end well. The author sets up a bit of a straw man, insisting that men are contradictorily expected to deflect confrontation, but also to settle it with violence. Men are expected to do neither, simply to be able to deal with a violent situation when it arises - if you're honestly capable of doing that without being violent yourself, more power to you.

Number two is difficult to address because again, I don't think it's quite right in interpreting what's expected of a man in these situations. I'm not going to lose any respect for a guy who takes into consideration his wife or significant other when making decisions, but a guy whose primary motivation in his decisions is to make his wife happy is off balance. I'm not saying he should be out for himself first and foremost, and if he can work his woman into it, cool, and if not, whatever. Nor am I saying that all women are just sheep without a shepherd, looking for a man to guide them. But there's a disconnect in that men tend to forget that their women, the good ones anyway, love them just as intensely as we love our women, and so while we're perfectly willing to sacrifice and compromise on a lot to make them happy, we forget that seeing us and helping us reach our own happiness is just as important to our women.

Three's a fair criticism, but sexuality is a big, nasty ball of evolutionary instinct, social pressure and unstable brain chemistry, and certainly one I'm not anything resembling an expert on.

I take exception to number four. Keeping a stiff upper lip isn't about denying emotions or instincts, it's about making sure that you're still you - you're still captaining the ship instead of just wantonly reacting to every curveball thrown at you. If you're honestly dealing with a lot of emotion, and crying will help - go ahead and cry, especially in situations where there's just not much to be done, like the death of a loved one. But if you're just crying because you never grew out of drawing attention to your pain instead of dealing with it, then you're off track.

Number five is on the money, though. Homophobia's silly.
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Postby Rei » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:23 am

I actually wear vests fairly often, especially as I cannot afford to tailor my shirts. Wearing a vest gives it shape and doesn't leave me feeling like I'm wearing a fancy sack.

As for suspenders, I largely don't wear them because I don't own a pair anymore, although I've been thinking lately of getting a pair as an alternative to always wearing a belt.
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Postby Mich » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:22 pm

I actually wear vests fairly often, especially as I cannot afford to tailor my shirts. Wearing a vest gives it shape and doesn't leave me feeling like I'm wearing a fancy sack.
For some reason, I always picture you in a vest. Don't ask me. That's just my mental image of you. Have you had pictures posted of you in a vest?

Anyway, so I read this and was like "Well, duh. Of course he wears vests."
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Postby Jayelle » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:03 pm

I actually wear vests fairly often, especially as I cannot afford to tailor my shirts. Wearing a vest gives it shape and doesn't leave me feeling like I'm wearing a fancy sack.
For some reason, I always picture you in a vest. Don't ask me. That's just my mental image of you. Have you had pictures posted of you in a vest?

Anyway, so I read this and was like "Well, duh. Of course he wears vests."
Me too. I was unsurprised by the fact that Rei wears vests.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:06 pm

:lol:
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Postby Luet » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:14 pm

Did anyone else own and wear the Mork & Mindy rainbow suspenders when they were little?
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Postby Gravity Defier » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:30 pm

Most originally, vests are worn as part of a three-piece suit. This is fine for most regions in America, but not as tenable in the hot and arid southwest. As Hollywood came to be the conduit through which a lot of pop culture flowed, and most of the stars were wearing two-piece suits, often of lighter fabrics, the vest stood as an obvious visual contrast between the younger pop culture of the west and the older culture of the east. Vests seem old-timey when worn with a suit. Nowadays the only people frequently seen in three-piece suits are lawyers or other people whose jobs call for them to dress conservatively, or people intentionally trying to invoke that aesthetic.

The only other connotations that are common with vests are serving staff - not something you want to risk appearing as.

Suspenders are similarly complicated - I think the primary reason for the switchover is that belts are more practical for manual labor, especially if you've got tools or some such conveniently stored there, and in America, since the days of Andrew Jackson, anyone who can be distinguished in such an obvious way from the working man is an elitist. As corporate office work became the relatable norm after the baby boom, though, suspenders became more acceptable for "everyman" attire, but a different sort of everyman. The eighties were brutal to them, though, as they became uniform pieces for super-nerds like Urkel and ruthless businessmen like Gordon Gekko.

Suspenders are still rare, but vests are making something of a comeback, mostly due to how visually distinct they are from both a simply dress shirt and a blazer - they avoid both bland anonymity while maintaining proper business attire, making them popular for the new breed of creative types that have thrived off the expansion of the internet, and it's a style that's increasingly mimicked.
Thank you, Wikipedia Brown! ;)

Seriously, that's more serious/formal of an answer than I was looking for by a long shot.
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Postby Rei » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:50 pm

Hahah, wow. I don't think I've posted a picture of myself wearing a vest, but I may have.

I've gotta say, vests look mighty classy with a pair of sleeve garters ;)

I'm also in the market for a bow-tie.
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Postby locke » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:14 am

Important question, worthy of bumping this from the second page:

Why do you gentleman types not wear suspenders and vests?
I read this post and thought:

"That's a really oblique way to ask Rei if he wears vests (and for pics if he does so)"

to answer your question myself. I have very little formal wear and hate the whole process of tying a tie (though last time I somehow remembered how to do it without having to look it up on youtube). So I don't wear formal wear and therefore don't wear vests. I think I wore one twice, to prom and my brothers wedding.

As for Suspenders I don't wear them for the same reasons I don't wear overalls or coveralls, for my lifestyle they're halloween costume apparel
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:20 am

As for Suspenders I don't wear them for the same reasons I don't wear overalls or coveralls, for my lifestyle they're halloween costume apparel
They don't take kindly to bib overalls out there in the big city, eh? :-p
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Postby JayeIIe » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:18 am

As for Suspenders I don't wear them for the same reasons I don't wear overalls or coveralls, for my lifestyle they're halloween costume apparel
They don't take kindly to bib overalls out there in the big city, eh? :-p
They were totally cool in the 90's. I miss them.
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Postby Jayelle » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:21 am

I have no idea how I posted as my clone. Stupid autofill.
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Postby buckshot » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:16 am

I like my overalls and my suspenders help keep my pants up when I'm packin. :D

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Postby Rei » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:22 am

I used to have a pair of Carhartt overalls, but that was less fashion and more function. I still love their trousers for anything outdoor work related.
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Postby daPyr0x » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:42 pm

Uhh...oops....let's talk about sports. Yeah, something manly like sports.
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Postby Jayelle » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:52 pm

I think I'm the only one who saw your mistake, Cam. :wink:
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Postby daPyr0x » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:59 pm

What mistake? I have no idea what you're talking about :oops:
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