Dark Knight - Now with Spoilers.

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Postby vendor » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:29 pm

Phillip Seymor Hoffman with padding!
...but paranoia is all I have!!

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Postby Seiryu » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:34 pm

I think the Riddler could also be a good character, without Jim Carrey this time and with the addition of the original Riddler sidekick, Harley Quinn
Harley Quinn is Joker's sidekick.
You caught me. Got that one mixed up. A combination of no sleep and more no sleep. Thanks for catching it.


PS, Jason Lee would be killer as the Riddler. And he's played bad guys before (Dogma) so he has the experience. I just don't know if he has the depth to turn Riddler into a serious but still comical character. Then again, everyone said that about Heath Ledger too.
He was a better villain in The Incredibles, but I loved both that and Dogma.
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Postby locke » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:55 pm

the penguin should only be played by Peter Dinklage.

But I don't think they'll go with a character that goofy.

I can see them expanding upon the copycat motif by having Harley Quinn show up as a Joker copycat, and Catwoman show up as a Batman copycat, only she has no rules and is much more vigilante oriented.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Seiryu » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:11 am

I agree with Harley Quinn as a copycat, but Catwoman isn't a vigilante or even a superhero. She's a cat burglar. It took some time (I think) for Batman to get her to that point.

But I think they need to focus on the duel identity relationships of Batman/Catwoman and Bruce Wayne/Selina Kyle in the movie. I felt the one in Batman Returns wasn't all that great. She was too crazy in that movie. Not very Selina Kyle-like at all. Nor was she all that much like Catwoman.

The "getting revenge after falling from some place high" back story is stupid and made up. She's just a chick in a cat costume.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:43 am

I just saw this with my mom. And I'd rather post first and check other reactions later.

I never saw Batman Begins, I feel I should point out, so I didn't quite know what to expect here. I wasn't disappointed in the least bit.

However, two things that perhaps irrationally irritated the living daylights out of me:
1. Christian Bale's Bat voice. I understand the need for disguise and/or intimidation there, but the husky, scratchy sound just bothered me.
2. People calling him the batman, instead of Batman.

As the movie played itself out, I found it was increasingly easy to guess at certain plot points but this never bothered me. I knew what would happen but I didn't know how I'd react to seeing it happen. It was like someone grabbed my guts about 5 minutes in and squeezed the whole movie through, sometimes hard, sometimes soft, but always grabbing and always squeezing to let me know there are no happy endings to be expected.

I am not well versed in Batman, or any other comic, but I'm pretty sure Cillian Murphy was supposed to be the Scarecrow. Is he going to be in a later movie? Makes sense that he would; why else would a respectable actor like him show up for such a bit part?

Gordon's fake death was probably the only real surprise. No, I take that back. I wasn't expecting Rachel to die, either. I was hoping she would, but didn't think it would happen; don't get me wrong, I thought she was a good enough character to live...but that's not realistic. There are casualties in war and they don't always happen to the stranger on the street.

Kinda confused on Two Face. I guess, since I've heard of him, that I always imagined he'd be used more in a film. He served his purpose, no doubt, in this one but still.

I enjoyed (somehow not quite the feeling, but close-ish) the prisoner's dillemma with the ferries. And you know? It seemed plausible to me. I'll start with the regular folk. I bet most people on that ferry were your average, hard-working, American values people and I suspect it'd be awfully hard for any/most of them to go through with pushing the detonator. I don't care that the other boat was filled with prisoners who "had their chance." Taking a life, I would think, is hard (understatement) for your average person. Sure, it's a stressful 'us or them' sort of deal but I imagine the conflict created by the knowledge that it's wrong and the desire to survive would be a conflict indeed. As to the prisoners...call me a sucker if you will, I believe it's possible they have some humanity in them even if they themselves have taken lives in the past. I can buy, perhaps out of naiveté, that they would either sacrifice themselves or wait it out to die with the other ferry.

And the Joker. Geeze, what can I say about him? He was what he said, chaotic and random, and that's what made him most frightening. He didn't need motivation or reason or feeling to fuel him (though no doubt something made him the way he is, so I figure he was motivated at one point...unless he was just born crazy, then I take all that back). He could just as soon kill you or not. My only problem with watching him is I was partially watching him as Heath Ledger, basking in my sorrow that he won't make any more movies. "Look at how he stood, just so" or "Listen to how he said that." He was brilliant. And yeah, I'm the loser who wore all black for the month of March to continue mourning his death; it took me that long for it to sink it, for me to believe it, afterall.

Batty himself. Hmm. His control over himself certainly impressed me, that is in the way he kept on keeping on despite moments of weakness or loss. Maybe he likes to be the victim, lives to be the one who sacrifices all even if he did find a chance to walk away; I certainly don't believe even his love of Rachel could have kept him from his Bat duties for long. It's a narcissism that I can understand, get behind even. But even if he thinks he's capable of choking off all emotion, doing what needs to be done...he can't and that's what I really like about him.

Anyhow..I said too much. But I really liked it, loved the darkness and how it not for one second let you think it was all going to be okay. Unlike Harvey Dent, unlike Gordon, the movie didn't tell you it'd be okay, knowing it wouldn't.
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Postby Seiryu » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:03 am

The early comics refer to him as "The Batman" and there's even a recent cartoon called "The Batman." I admit, it was irritating at first for me to hear people on various Batman shows to add the word "the" in front of his name, but as time went by, I got used to it. For the most part, "The Batman" became a thing villains would say. To me, it seemed like they were dehumanizing him with this or else making him seem like an establishment (like saying "the police"). It's kind of a title as well as a name. Typically The Joker DOES refer to Batman as "The Batman."

When the cartoon came out, even Batman called himself "The Batman." In most versions of Batman, whenever they first introduce the character Batman to their audience, someone will go "Who are you?" and Batman does his trademark "I'm Batman." (See the Burton films, the Schumaker films, and Batman Begins and so on.) Well, in The Batman, he says "I'm The Batman."

But really it all boils down to: who is writing it, what character is saying it, and so on. People who know Batman don't usually say the word "the," and for the most part they don't say it when they're talking to him. It's mostly when he's being referred to. Again, probably dehumanizing him, either on purpose or out of fear of him.

Enough Batman films, TV series, and comics, and you get used to it. I know I did.


Regarding his voice: you have to remember, Bruce Wayne is still a newbie. I don't expect him to get the voice right as soon as he becomes Batman. I'm sure the Batman voice took some time to perfect. Same goes for Bale. I think he'll perfect it throughout the sequels.
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Postby locke » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:23 am

regarding the batman voice, one thing I didn't realize until the second viewing. He has a scene with Lucius Fox when he's already suited up and even though Lucius knows who he is, he still uses the Batman voice. It's indicating that he makes a complete transition into another person as Batman, he's not dropping the voice as a facade when someone already knows who he is. I've been a fan of the batman voice since batman begins, but Batman had to talk ALOT in this film by comparison, so I think people noticed it much more. But I really love what it indicates about his inner mental make up without ever pushing such a thing at us obviously.

I'm not sure but I think that particular kind of deep gravelly voice is related to his first hallucinoginic experience training in China in the first film. Interesting if that's what the Nolans and Bale intended for the voice.

Alea, Scarecrow was one of the primary villains of the first film.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Luet » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:13 am

The voice bothers me too only because it sounds *painful* to maintain for any length of time.
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Postby Seiryu » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:42 am

regarding the batman voice, one thing I didn't realize until the second viewing. He has a scene with Lucius Fox when he's already suited up and even though Lucius knows who he is, he still uses the Batman voice. It's indicating that he makes a complete transition into another person as Batman, he's not dropping the voice as a facade when someone already knows who he is. I've been a fan of the batman voice since batman begins, but Batman had to talk ALOT in this film by comparison, so I think people noticed it much more. But I really love what it indicates about his inner mental make up without ever pushing such a thing at us obviously.

I'm not sure but I think that particular kind of deep gravelly voice is related to his first hallucinoginic experience training in China in the first film. Interesting if that's what the Nolans and Bale intended for the voice.

Alea, Scarecrow was one of the primary villains of the first film.
You know, Locke, you're the first person I've seen bring up the fact that he used his Batman voice for Lucius Fox, but know why he did it that I've seen. Most people who noticed that can't explain why and most people who can explain why never really noticed. I didn't notice, but I'm used to Batman talking like Batman even around Alfred in most cartoons. The only time I've ever heard him doing his Bruce Wayne voice when he has the cowl on is when he's talking on the phone as Bruce Wayne. He's taken a few calls in the batcave and in his batmobile.

The reason why Scarecrow is in the second film, I think, is because there's quite a bit of Batman cartoons and comic books that use Batman villains in minor roles. Take Batman: Hush for instance. Hush is the main villain of that, but there were several cameos from other Batman villains such as The Joker, Harley Quinn, etc. Actually, most other superheroes are like this, too. I recall in one Spider-man graphic novel, someone kidnapped Aunt May, so Spider-Man went to the prison where Norman Osborne was to interrogate him.

THIS is why, I think, Scarecrow was in the film: supervillains are SUPPOSED to make cameos when they're not the main villain.
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Postby Luet » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:17 pm

He has a scene with Lucius Fox when he's already suited up and even though Lucius knows who he is, he still uses the Batman voice.
My husband opined that maybe a voice changer is part of the batman suit.
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Postby Seiryu » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:53 pm

I've heard that theory before and quite frankly, I think it's stretching it a bit. My explanation is that that's the voice of Batman and he doesn't go back to Wayne until the cowl comes off. (Or unless he's taking a call for Bruce Wayne while he's dressed as Batman.)
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Postby Luet » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:39 pm

Sounds like the voice thing is a common complaint:

http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/2008 ... 24000.html

And that, "though much of the voice effect is Bale's own doing, under the guidance of director Christopher Nolan and supervising sound editor Richard King, the frequency of his Batman voice was modulated to exaggerate the effect."
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Postby Jebus » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:41 am

Pretty f****** good. Didn't like the detachable motorcycle and hated the sonars in every mobile phone, felt too reminiscient of the gadget heavy movies, and in the latter case it was just plain silly. Ferries not blowing each other up was totally unrealistic, the only way I can rationalise it is that the people onboard feared that there was a chance the Joker was only f****** them around and that they each actually had their own detonator, or each detonator actually blew up both boats, but there would definitely be enough stupid, panic-stricken people who wouldn't think of that, and who wouldn't hesitate to press it.

Heath Ledger was simply unreal, every moment he was on screen was fantastic. It pains me that we'll never see another movie with his Joker in it.

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Postby Gravity Defier » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:10 pm

The voice bothers me too only because it sounds *painful* to maintain for any length of time.
I think that's why I was so bothered.

Alea, Scarecrow was one of the primary villains of the first film.
Just goes to show, watching in order isn't a bad idea.
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:29 pm

I saw it for the second time yesterday. Man, it really is an awesome movie! I really don't see how any superhero movie can top this one.

I like the Batman voice, even though it does indeed sound rough on the throat. All the good portrayals of Batman have him using distinctly different voices for Bruce and Batman. Bale did an amazing job, but as far as voices go, Kevin Conroy (who has voiced Batman/Wayne in various animated incarnations since 1992) will always be the voice of the character. When I read a Batman comic or novel I hear Conroy's voice(s).
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Postby wigginboy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:29 pm

For all you Johnny Depp fans out there, apparently Depp has been approached to play the Riddler in a new movie. As well, whoever suggested Philip Seymour Hoffman as Penguin could get their wish, as he has reportedly also been approached for a possible role as said character. Read all about it.



(edit: Mod snip of url)

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Postby Seiryu » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:55 pm

I saw it for the second time yesterday. Man, it really is an awesome movie! I really don't see how any superhero movie can top this one.

I like the Batman voice, even though it does indeed sound rough on the throat. All the good portrayals of Batman have him using distinctly different voices for Bruce and Batman. Bale did an amazing job, but as far as voices go, Kevin Conroy (who has voiced Batman/Wayne in various animated incarnations since 1992) will always be the voice of the character. When I read a Batman comic or novel I hear Conroy's voice(s).
I hear all the Animated Series voices when I pick up a comic, except for The Penguin. For some reason I hear Tom Kenny's voice, who voiced him in The Batman. And Commissioner Gordon, I usually hear Gary Oldman's voice.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:45 am

I wish John was still around, I would love to hear his thoughts on this being as huge of a Batman fan as he is.
Can't really discuss it, but here's John's take:

It was great. Without going into too much depth about it, I think that all the actors did excellent jobs although I wasn't too nuts about how two-face came off. I think they tried to make it look a little too real looking and as a consequence made it seem less real. It's a shame that Ledger died though, however I am a person who firmly believes that he should be replaced in a future movie as the Joker is too important to the Batman mythos to simply be forgotten (when he isn't killed). Plus it's not the movie going public's fault that Ledger OD'd, so we shouldn't be penalized for it. Trying to think about specific things that I appreciated.... 2 things come to mind. They had a good eye for detail, which I like. First thing that I noticed was that we can see scarring on Bruce's body. I like that sort've thing in a movie like this since the guy is only human afterall. The other thing is that he changed his voice when he was batman, which is a detail that I feel is sometimes overlooked. Not nuts about the batman voice itself, but I like the fact that there is a marked change.
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Postby zeroguy » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:39 am

Saw this earlier today (and so now I can read this thread). Not bad. About equal to what I was expecting, but I tend to make my expectations drastically lower than what people say their reactions were.

First note: once again, whenever I see Christian Bale, I always see him as Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. Which is a good thing.
Much has been said about the darkness and intensity of TDK
Intensity: okay yeah, I can see that; a lot happens. But darkness? The Joker simply was not all that scary or dark to me. He was crazy, unpredictable (at least, in movie-reality), and very very good at what he did, but he didn't do anything that I found all that terrifying. It seemed like all he did was kill people to grab attention at certain times, or try to mess with Batman.

I don't mean to detract from Ledger's acting, though. That was certainly spot-on and very well done. I'm just talking about the plot and writing for the character itself (though there may be constraints from the source material there).
My only complaint was my relative emotional detachment to all of the characters. When Rachel died, I didn't care, because there had been so very little chemistry between the main characters. I didn't believe that Batman loved her. In fact, the most emotionally jarring moment was when the felon tossed the detonator out the window.
Yes, very much agree here. When people talked about whether or not Gordon's death surprised them or not, I tried to remember my reaction, and I couldn't find one. I just didn't really care all that much even when he "died", even though I thought he was kinda cool.
PS, Jason Lee would be killer as the Riddler. And he's played bad guys before (Dogma) so he has the experience.
And you... liked him in Dogma? As a serious villain?
However, two things that perhaps irrationally irritated the living daylights out of me:
1. Christian Bale's Bat voice. I understand the need for disguise and/or intimidation there, but the husky, scratchy sound just bothered me.
2. People calling him the batman, instead of Batman.
On the second one, yes, you're certainly not alone. It was very annoying, and suddenly jarred me out the immersive feeling a few times.
The voice bothers me too only because it sounds *painful* to maintain for any length of time.
I like the voice, and possibly because of this. It makes what he says in the voice very curt, and speaks only when necessary (at least in theory; he may have over long lines in some scenes that I don't remember). Remember early on when Gordon and Dent were arguing about corruption in their respective departments and whatnot on the roof, while Batman was present? I wish I could pull up that scene right now to be sure, but I do remember Batman being quiet throughout the entire argument, and after it said like one or two lines, before dissappearing when Dent wasn't looking. It's a good effect.

On the ferry scene: I find the convict ferry more plausible than the innocent-citizen one. Not really for the question of "what would people do in this situation" in general, but rather what those two specific individuals (who went for their respective detonators) would do. I do not see that guy suddenly changing his mind like that; he thought he would be saving them and sacrificing people who don't deserve better or that nobody cares about. I also find it a little odd that you would put something like that to a vote; the guy with the detonator should have just prevented anyone else from using it (such as throwing it out the window; see, the convict had the right idea).

The idea that each detonator actually explodes the ship it is on is interesting, but I don't see the Joker doing that (in my very limited experience with the character). If there were any trick to the game at all, I would see it as either detonator detonating both ferries. That way, if they are pressed, all of them die anyway and if they go off before midnight you just learn about human nature or whatever. Or we was planning on setting the other one off afterwards himself anyway.

But that's if there were such a trick involved. I think not. That would just serve as some irony or moral thing, and the Joker's just about chaos.

Edit: Okay, one more thing. Whenever I see Two Face, I remember Tommy Lee Jones portraying him, which is just... weird. And wikipedia lists that role as what Tommy Lee Jones is best known for? Wha..?
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