No soul or immortal spirit?

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No soul or immortal spirit?

Postby pooka » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:13 pm

This has actually been going on in the "I don't believe in Atheist" thread, but I wanted to get this out here where other might see and comment on it. And my question is simply whether your Christian denomination teaches that the soul was a Greek invention and that there is no immortal spirit in the Bible. Along these same lines, do you believe Angels are a separate type of being from human spirits?

I mean, I was 18 before I realized that my denomination's concept of the godhead was "unorthodox", though I knew others don't believe in a pre-existent spirit for regular humans. I just want to understand what people generally believe.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:15 pm

Man, I wish I could respond to this thread.

Unfortunately, one of my courses this term is "Philosophy of the Mind [Soul] in the Middle Ages," and I want to blurt out what Avicenna and Aquinas say without even taking time to sort out who says what. And that would not be productive.

I can't see the forest for the trees right now.
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Postby wizzard » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:18 pm

My denomination, Swedenborgianism, teaches that human beings do have an immortal soul, but that the soul doesn't exist before you're born. When we die, our soul either enters Heaven and becomes an angel, or enters hell and becomes a devil.
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Postby Rei » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:08 pm

One thing I've found is that many, many people make a huge, emphatic distinction between "soul" and "spirit", yet I am not sure if anyone has ever been able to clearly articulate to me exactly what that distinction is and why it is so important. I am personally more apt to treat the two words as synonyms and say that I do believe that we have a soul. I can not speak for my denomination, however, as I have no clue what its official perspective is. I will have to get back to you on that.

I do know that the Catholic Church teaches that angels are a seperate being from human spirits. Angels are spirit beings (entirely without physical bodies, to my understanding) and they are absolute in their alliances. If they are for God, they are entirely for God and not one aspect of them rebels. If they are against God, they are entirely against God and every aspect of them rebels. This being different from humans who can be better or worse, who can obey or disobey and then do the opposite in the next minute.
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Postby vendor » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:25 pm

I believe that the soul is made up of two parts; the physical body, and the spiritual body.

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Postby lyons24000 » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:23 pm

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that the soul is immortal or seperate from the body.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

Ezekiel 18:4-"All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."

Psalm 146:3,4-"Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.

Lamentations 3:6-"In dark places he has made me sit like men dead for a long time."

We believe the spirit is not a living entity, just the force that keeps us alive.

Plus, the Bible does not say that God created Adam with a living soul but that Adam a living soul. Genesis 2:7-"God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul."

If there is a part of us that lives on after death then death would be a friend, kind of like a "divine promotion" as the writer of the book, We Believe in Immortality puts it. But oddly enough the Bible calls physical death an enemy.-1 Corinthians 15:26

So, Jehovah's Witnesses take all of this to mean that when you die, you die.
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Postby wizzard » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:43 pm

If there is a part of us that lives on after death then death would be a friend, kind of like a "divine promotion" as the writer of the book, We Believe in Immortality puts it. But oddly enough the Bible calls physical death an enemy.-1 Corinthians 15:26

So, Jehovah's Witnesses take all of this to mean that when you die, you die.
"But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is not a resurreciton of the dead." 1 Cor 15:12

"For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised" 1 Cor 15:16

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" 1 Cor 15:22

From what I'm reading, this passage is arguing pretty heavily in favor of some kind of life after death. It calls death an enemy, but only in saying that all enemies have been conquered, including death.
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Postby vendor » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:14 pm

I believe that my body is the flesh that keeps me alive. My spirit is who I am.

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Re: No soul or immortal spirit?

Postby suminonA » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:00 am

And my question is simply whether your Christian denomination teaches that the soul was a Greek invention and that there is no immortal spirit in the Bible. Along these same lines, do you believe Angels are a separate type of being from human spirits?
Are you interested in what non-Christians think about this? Or even non-theists?

A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

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Postby pooka » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:53 am

I would be interested in Jewish or Muslim perspectives, but my main interest is the claim that the Bible does not support it. If you want to reason out of the Bible or other holy writings, that would be fine. If you believe in spirits but not in God, I guess you can talk about that. But as this came up in the Atheist thread, I suppose you can do what you will.

I guess I asked for denominations and didn't share that I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormon) and we teach that we have spirits. The soul is the spirit and the body together, and the term "immortal" refers to the resurrected soul.

Angels are messengers from God. They can be spirits, or resurrected souls except angels of the devil are always just spirits.

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Postby lyons24000 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:40 am

If there is a part of us that lives on after death then death would be a friend, kind of like a "divine promotion" as the writer of the book, We Believe in Immortality puts it. But oddly enough the Bible calls physical death an enemy.-1 Corinthians 15:26

So, Jehovah's Witnesses take all of this to mean that when you die, you die.
"But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is not a resurreciton of the dead." 1 Cor 15:12

"For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised" 1 Cor 15:16

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" 1 Cor 15:22

From what I'm reading, this passage is arguing pretty heavily in favor of some kind of life after death. It calls death an enemy, but only in saying that all enemies have been conquered, including death.
What would be the point of Christ having been raised from the dead if he just went to Heaven when he died or some other afterlife? What would have been the point of raising Lazarus from the dead if he went to Heaven?

John 5:28,29 says, "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Acts 24:15 says, "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."

So, if we go to Heaven when we die, then what would be the point of a resurrection?
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Postby Taalcon » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:04 am

What would be the point of Christ having been raised from the dead if he just went to Heaven when he died or some other afterlife?
LDS believe that attaining of a perfected physical body is a key, essential part of what consists of, in the LDS view, the fulness of "Eternal Life".
John 5:28,29 says, "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
In the LDS view, Resurrection proper is the restoration of the Spirit with an immortal physical body. All who were born on earth will receive a Resurrection because of Christ's atoning sacrifice.
Acts 24:15 says, "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."

So, if we go to Heaven when we die, then what would be the point of a resurrection?
The 'Mormonism' thread goes into more detail about the LDS view of the afterlife, and the fact that one doesn't receive back their physical body right away.
What would have been the point of raising Lazarus from the dead if he went to Heaven?
Lazarus' spirit didn't go to 'heaven', or the abode of his 'eternal reward' at the point that he died. He would have been in a state of paradise (or at Abraham's Bosom), and not with a physical resurrected body. However, even thought he would have been at peace, not having a body (especially after having had one) is a bit of a bondage. A return to his physical body would not have been a 'demotion'. He was not being ripped from Eternal Glory. His Resurrection was not an eternal one - it was a return to his mortal body that would die again.

Resurrection Proper didn't and wouldn't occur until after the death of Christ - his Resurrected and perfected body of Flesh and Bone was the first. Others would follow.

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Postby Taalcon » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:36 am

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that the soul is immortal or seperate from the body.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."
The LDS interpretation comes from the larger context of the verse:

3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 ¶ For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The writer of Ecclesiastes (a book which a friend has referred to as 'what happens when Prophets write while in a funk' ;)) is, well, let me quote as phrased by the LDS Bible Dictionary,

"The book of Ecclesiastes seems permeated with a pessimistic flavor, but must be read in the light of one of its key phrases: “under the sun” (Eccl. 1: 9), meaning “from a worldly point of view.” The term vanity also needs clarification, since as used in Ecclesiastes it means transitory, or fleeting. Thus the Preacher laments that as things appear from the point of view of the world, everything is temporary and soon gone - nothing is permanent. It is in this light also that the reader must understand Eccl. 9: 5 and Eccl. 9: 10, which declare that the dead “know not any thing,” and there is no knowledge “in the grave.” These should not be construed as theological pronouncements on the condition of the soul after death; rather, they are observations by the Preacher about how things appear to men on the earth “under the sun.” The most spiritual part of the book appears in chapters 11 and 12, where it is concluded that the only activity of lasting and permanent value comes from obedience to God’s commandments, since all things will be examined in the judgment that God will render on man."
Ezekiel 18:4-"All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."
LDS understand two types of death - physical (the death of the body), and spiritual (separation from God). One who dies unrepentant in the knowledge of their sins will not only suffer the first death (as does all men), but also the Second Death, which will effect the resurrected soul (body/spirit) - Eternal separation from the Father.
Psalm 146:3,4-"Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.
Which thoughts perish? The thoughts he referred to directly above - those he had in reliance on the earthly nobles and in earthly men. All his thoughts and ambitions came to naught - they were dashed away.
Lamentations 3:6-"In dark places he has made me sit like men dead for a long time."
I don't see how this verse is used as evidence for the nonexistance of the intelligent spirit of man.
Plus, the Bible does not say that God created Adam with a living soul but that Adam a living soul. Genesis 2:7-"God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul."
the LDS take into consideration that the hebrew for 'Breath' and 'Spirit' are the same, and that the 'blowing into his nostrils' is figurative rather than literal, that this presents God placing Adam's spirit into his body, and the connection of the two (Spirit + Body) made the Soul.
If there is a part of us that lives on after death then death would be a friend, kind of like a "divine promotion" as the writer of the book, We Believe in Immortality puts it. But oddly enough the Bible calls physical death an enemy.-1 Corinthians 15:26
Physical Death, without Resurrection, is indeed an enemy. If it weren't for the Atonement of Christ, death would have been the final step - a halt in progression - an enemy indeed - a final state. Christ's Atonement conquered death.

This is the LDS view on those texts.

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Postby pooka » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:19 pm

Ah, well, I know from experience not to tell a Jehovah's witness that Ecclesiastes has less validity than a direct quote from Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. :?

But I do think I learned a lot about the bible from our discussions together, and my faith was strengthened. I did my best never to contend with them, but find common ground.

I have evolved a concept of the spirit from being myself, but free of the bounds of the flesh. It is possible I won't be conscious. But unconscious is different from dead. I'm fairly certain our concept of time will be very different. But I'll take that to the Mormonism thread.

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Postby hive_king » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:53 pm

Show me a soul, then I'll believe in it.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby neo-dragon » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:52 pm

I'm surprised that no one has quoted the biggie, John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As I always say in these threads, I'm no expert. In fact, I have no formal religious education, but is it not the belief of many Christian denominations that the resurrection of Christ brought an end to death meaning oblivion? That is to say, that his sacrifice made it possible for people to live in God's Kingdom after death, and therefore some part of us lives on for ever.
Show me a soul, then I'll believe in it.
How many atoms have you seen? :stoned:
So much of science is based on things that we don't see, but rather we see the presumed consequences and effects of.

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Postby hive_king » Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:59 pm

Actually, with the use of electron microscopes, we can see atoms. But I get your point. Let me rephrase my statement.

Show me empirical evidence of a soul, then I might believe in it.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby suminonA » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:27 am

Show me empirical evidence of a soul, then I might believe in it.
When somebody breaks your heart, what part of your being/self is hurting?

A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

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Postby lyons24000 » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:41 pm

Show me empirical evidence of a soul, then I might believe in it.
When somebody breaks your heart, what part of your being/self is hurting?

A.
I don't find that to be a good question pertaining to the topic. A broken heart can be explained by science, a soul cannot. A broken heart is more of an emotion then a soul feeling pain. That's like saying that the feeling of hunger is not something the body feels but something the soul feels.
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Postby neo-dragon » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:41 pm

When somebody breaks your heart, what part of your being/self is hurting?
Well, actually, I think that's more a matter of your emotions, which are the result of your brain chemistry. I don't think that's there's any part of human nature that we can say for certain comes from the soul. That's why one can believe in the soul, but never really prove that it exists.

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Postby Young Val » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:42 pm

this is probably a TOTAL derail, and if so, i'll pack up and head out, but i'd love to have this statement explained to me....

A broken heart can be explained by science
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby neo-dragon » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:18 pm

Your emotions, including those of hurt, sadness, betrayal, etc. come from chemical reactions in your brain, which in turn trigger physical responses, ie. crying, loss of appetite, what have you. It's a all just neurology (which isn't my field of expertise, by the way, so I can't offer more detail).

One of my organic chem professors always used to remind us that love is nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain. From a strictly scientific standpoint, it's just evolution's way of making sure that we breed. Being physically attracted to the opposite sex may get the job done, but hardwiring our brains to make us prone to emotional attachments seals the deal. Again, I say that neurology isn't my field, but I believe that "love" produces happy chemicals in the brain, so when things fall apart and those happy chemicals stop coming, that makes the effects all the worse, like withdrawal.

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Postby suminonA » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:23 am

Show me empirical evidence of a soul, then I might believe in it.
When somebody breaks your heart, what part of your being/self is hurting?

A.
I don't find that to be a good question pertaining to the topic.
I hope that this question will help us understand better what is it that each of us is calling “soul”. I didn’t ask my question to “prove” anything, but to see what we are talking about. :)
A broken heart can be explained by science, a soul cannot.
Ok, neo-dragon explained what the first part of the sentence could mean, but what does the second part mean? Do you take it as a premise that “a soul cannot be explained by science”? Taking it as an axiom, will render useless any “empirical evidence of a soul”. And I’m still not sure what (if anything) do you call “soul”.
A broken heart is more of an emotion then a soul feeling pain. That's like saying that the feeling of hunger is not something the body feels but something the soul feels.
I don’t agree that “hungry” and “heart broken” are the same. If you stop eating you’ll feel hungry and eventually die of inanition. That means that “hunger” is a body signal for you to start eating. But when you are heart broken, you don’t die from it. The body can go on without “the happy chemicals”, as you put it. That’s the difference that I see.

That being said (including neo-dragon's previous post), I understand why one might not see emotions as “empirical evidence for a soul”.

But I have one more question: Where does the “feeling of self” come from? Is it also a product of “brain chemicals”?

I myself don’t use the religious/mystical definition of “soul/spirit”. I call soul that “higher function” of every organism that produces “self-awareness” and feels the balance of “brain chemicals” producing emotions. Maybe it all comes from the complexity of our internal biological structure, but I don’t think that science can state that as yet. (Duplicating it in laboratory would be a nice touch/breakthrough ;) ).

A.
It's all just a matter of interpretation.

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Postby lyons24000 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:21 am

Actually, you can die from a broken heart.
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained

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Postby suminonA » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:46 am

You can also die crossing the streat. But crossing the street doesn't kill you.
Inanition, on the other hand, does. :twisted:

A.

edited to clarify
It's all just a matter of interpretation.


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