Do you eat meat?

[locke]

small farms probably outnumber factory farms, but the factory farms maintain a larger percentage of the food. So the vast majority would be an incorrect claim, but it would be accurate of the vast majority of suppliers of generic meat to your local supermarket.

Living conditions for cattle, swine: kept in stalls in which they are unable to even turn around for the 18 and 14 months it takes them to mature, respectively. Eating silage that is partially grain, but also processed poultry manure, ground up refuse of cattle and swine carcass and cut with sawdust. minimal cleaning of stalls. due to their diet, their digestive system is so wrecked that they would be unable to exist on pasture anymore. Dairy cattle are permanently connected to their milkers and not allowed to move in their 25-30 months of life (average life of a dairy cow on pastured farm or a small farm is 14-19 years) they're kept hormonally induced for continued lactation, though their feed may include hay in order that the milk won't be entirely 'blue' when it's drawn out. Usually they will only live long enough to calve once. Because dairy cattle is so used up their flesh isn't fit for human consumption and tend to go to dog/cat food or to feed other cattle. Swine can be kept stacked two or three high, excretions drip down on those below.

Chicken feed is much the same, processed chicken manure, and the refuse and carcasses of other animals, egg production is slightly different from birds bred for the various kinds of chicken you can buy for meat. free range and cage free chickens mean they are still indoors but not in cages. Chickens are debeaked to prevent them from pecking themselves to death, or attacking others if they can reach it.

Addditonally there's the environmental impact of high densities of animals in the same area. The high amounts of nitrogen (and I think phosphorous though I may be getting mixed up) from the manure runoff of theses thousands of animals saturates the ground and enters into the ground water and streams. Leading to dieoffs of aqualife, algae blooms, contamination with high concentrations of bacteria and disease and in general being some of the worst industrial pollution allowed. fwiw, reforms and strides have been made in this arena more than any other affecting factory farms.

[Eddie Pinz]

The way you guys talk it makes it sound like the cows are chained and hung from the ceiling, are fed via stomach tubes, and are regularly used as punching bags.

Only in Philadelphia, where the Italian Stallion reigns supreme.

This is very true. Anyone who lives in Philadelphia is required to have some form of meat hanging from the ceiling. Normal punching bags are even sold in the city.

I've always sort of believed that if your meals absolutely must contain a certain thing (like salt, for example), then you haven't done it right. So while I understand enjoying a steak, I can't comprehend absolutely requiring meat at every meal.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. What is wrong with putting salt on everything (aside from high sodium)? What is wrong with eating meat at every meal? I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

[Eaquae Legit]

Okay, example. My dad puts lemon pepper and/or steak spice on everything. It doesn't matter what it is. This bothers me if I've spent two hours making dinner and getting it just right.

Requiring that every meal you have include meat means you miss out on a whole world of food that is incredibly tasty but just happens to not have meat in it. Aloo gobi, spanakopita, miso soup... There are tons and tons of meals out there that don't need meat. If it tastes great, does it really matter so much that for a single meal you don't have meat?

When it comes to salt, I think most people overdo it. It's as if there aren't any other ways to flavour food besides sodium. With the exception of a handful of recipes, if I need to salt it, it means I've done a poor job of preparing it.

[Eddie Pinz]

Fair enough. I guess I wasn't thinking about it from a chef's prosective.

But couldn't you take the argument the other way? That requiring that a meal must be meat free, you miss out on a lot of great meals that happen to contain meat. If it tastes good does it really matter that there is meat in it??*


*Not trying to tear down you non-meateaters. I understand that there is a multitude of reasons that a person may choose not to eat meat. I'm just trying to give a counterpoint.

[Eaquae Legit]

Yep, and that's fair enough. For me, the health, environmental, and financial reasons for not eating meat are good enough that I'm okay with it.

Also, I do see a difference in "must it have a dead animal in it?" and "must it be dead-animal free?" I believe the thread's already covered that there's more than one reason most people become vegetarians, and taste isn't the only one. Sure, it tastes good, but a vegetarian might still have moral objections, health reasons, etc. not to eat it. Which I guess is what I said in the first paragraph, but in a more expanded form. If you have moral or health reasons to require meat each meal, then that's a different story.

[Eddie Pinz]

Sure, it tastes good, but a vegetarian might still have moral objections, health reasons, etc. not to eat it.

This is what I was getting at with the disclaimer. I was more referring to the people that don't eat meat without those objections. Now, that I think about it, I am too sure how many people that would consist of.

Also, I do see a difference in "must it have a dead animal in it?" and "must it be dead-animal free?"

Are there really people that won't eat a meal that doesn't have meat? I am a meat lover through and through and even though I usually have some form of meat in every meal, I wouldn't be turned off by something that doesn't have meat. Are there people that would honestly say "That meal looks/smells/sounds really good but I'm not going to eat it unless I can plop some meat in there?" I find that hard to believe.

[VelvetElvis]

I eat meat.


All the time. It's delicious. I bought beef jerky when I went to the store today. I also eat absurd amounts of vegetables.


On a slightly related note, I killed a chicken once.

[Wil]

Hmm. Okay, I'll accept that. It's not good, but it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

I remember watching this show about the more 'modern' cow milking farms where they allow the cows to wander around, the floors are automatically cleaned and disinfected, and the cows are essentially trained that when it's time to milk they line up and one-by-one enter a single-cow-sized-cage where the machine scans the utters, automatically places the four pumps on each utter, sucks the milk from each utter automatically until it stops draining and then lets the cow go. It then proceeds to automatically check the quality of milk, mark infected milk to cows, and then disinfects the pumps and the milk tank.

Anyways, we need more of that. Just because we're going to kill the cow doesn't mean we shouldn't make it easy on them. If you treat the cow correctly (such as in the above example) the cow or animal should last quite awhile.

At least they are put down quickly and painlessly the majority of the time... >.>

[BonitoDeMadrid]

I eat all meat except canned Tuna fish.. I despise canned tuna. I wouldn't be eating it if it were my only food for a week. I hate the taste and the afterwards smell..yuck.

(Maybe I were a tuna fish in the past?)

[Luet]

I don't want to beat a dead horse but I was just doing some more research for myself and wanted to share this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse

I was already been a big fan of the work of Temple Grandin, an autistic woman who has completely reformed the slaughterhouse industry (about half of the industry uses her designs). She isn't against killing animals, but has tried to come up with more humane ways of doing it. Her website has tons of information and technical data:

http://www.grandin.com/

[Jayelle]

I don't want to beat a dead horse

Literally.

[Ela]

He would use orange juice on his cereal instead of milk.

That's just...wrong.

(Not to mention really gross. )

[Ela]

While I enjoy eating meat, be it wild or farmed, red meat, poultry, or fish, I rarely do. Part of it is that meat is expensive and I am attempting to be more frugal. I also am lazy and don't feel like putting the effort into prepping the meat nicely, often. And in general I feel no need to have it all that often. Usually my meat consumption is limited to when I eat out, right now.

I pretty much fall into the same camp as Rei. Not for all the reasons stated, though. For example, it's not due to laziness. Frankly, it would be easier for me to cook daily dinners if we ate more meat. Many of the vegetarian dishes I make are time-consuming to prepare and require considerable lead time to get them on the table at a reasonable hour.

So, although I voted yes for eating meat, I don't think it's an accurate representation of the distribution of meat vs. non-meat eaters. You should have had an option for those who eat meat only occasionally.

[Eaquae Legit]

I made robot pie tonight. If shepherd's pie is made with shepherds, then non-meat shepherd's pie is made with robot shepherds. With the addition of my delicious mushroom gravy, it was quite excellent.

[zeroguy]

So, although I voted yes for eating meat, I don't think it's an accurate representation of the distribution of meat vs. non-meat eaters. You should have had an option for those who eat meat only occasionally.

Ah, sorry. But I don't really think of them as separate groups.

[Ela]

I probably should have voted "No with exceptions." But I do eat red meat on occasion, so that's not really accurate, either.

[Jebus]

I don't know how anybody can feel like a man without eating meat. Or without eating meat that died painfully. There's an eternal struggle between us and our food, they're desperate to stay alive and we're desperate to eat them, it makes our victory all the sweeter when we know they suffered during the whole ordeal.

[Ela]

You are such a character, Jebus.

[3nder]

i kinda feel sorry for the animals because they were bred to die
but they taste so good..........

[Jebus]

You are such a character, Jebus.

You're a MILF, Ela, if you'll excuse my utter crudeness.

[3nder]

im sure that was entended to be a complement

[powerfulcheese04]

intended

compliment

(Complement is the 30something small proteins involved in the immune response. They're really cool, but not very flattering.)

[Jayelle]

I'm pretty sure that Jebus is trying to cross the line as much as possible these days just to see what will happen.

[Syphon the Sun]

(Complement is the 30something small proteins involved in the immune response. They're really cool, but not very flattering.)

Pssh, everyone knows that a complement is a clause (usually in the predicate) necessary to complete a sentence's meaning. I see that you value your Biology degree higher than your English one, Kimmie.

*waits for the math kids*

[3nder]

yes..........math kid
muhahahahahahahahaha

[zeroguy]

http://bash.org/?214810 (caution: language)

[Jebus]

I'm pretty sure that Jebus is trying to cross the line as much as possible these days just to see what will happen.

And I'm pretty sure you're just jealous cause you didn't get called a milf. Don't worry J-Lo, you're a total milf.

[Ela]

You are such a character, Jebus.

You're a MILF, Ela, if you'll excuse my utter crudeness.

I have no idea what that means.

And your crudeness, whatever it may be, is not excused.

[Wil]

Ignorance is bliss...

[Jebus]

You are such a character, Jebus.

You're a MILF, Ela, if you'll excuse my utter crudeness.

I have no idea what that means.

And your crudeness, whatever it may be, is not excused.

It means I love you, but in a bold way.

[Luet]

Back on topic again...and I need some help from the vegetarians here.

I just finished reading two books about the sources of food and the meat industry in general: The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals and Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry. I was actually initially motivated to read them by this thread, although the first was also recommended by a friend of mine.

Now, I have never had moral or ethical problems with eating meat and I still don't if it was killed humanely. I had no idea that it *routinely* wasn't. Or maybe I did and I just didn't know the details. But whatever, I know now and I can't conscientiously keep eating meat bought from the store. I have looked into local farms that sell free range meat but I honestly can't afford that option either ($20/lb beef; $15/lb chicken). I am going to be getting some farm eggs ($4/dozen) and local bottled milk tomorrow at a farmer's market.

I honestly don't mind giving up meat and will probably still eat fish (especially when eating out) but I need some advice on how to get enough nutrition EASILY. As in, I don't cook much and I have never met a tofu/soy that I liked (plus, I've heard that soy can increase risks of breast cancer...which I already am at risk for - true?). My husband is NOT happy about this and plans on still buying store meat and cooking it for himself. Any advice would be great - thanks!

[Eaquae Legit]

Pulses are great sources of protein - chickpeas, lentils, beans, etc. Nuts are good, but fatty. Dairy products (which is a whole 'nother issue) are also good, especially to help you get your B12. Eggs. Fish, which you said you are okay with. Seitan is also pretty tasty and has a nice texture when done well, made from vital wheat gluten. You may have trouble finding it, but I have a couple recipes if you're interested.

Cutting out all soy-based products makes it tougher, to be sure. How have you had it in the past? You can turn it into tempeh, blender it up to make a killer mayo-substitute (I don't like real mayo), fry it (NEVER with olive oil - peanut or sesame are tastiest, IMO), bake it with a tangerine-rum glaze (my experiment of the week this week), blender it into a very tasty ricotta for casseroles and lasagna... there are many amazing ways to prepare it where it blends right into the background. Another thing that makes a huge difference is texture - soft silken tofu is completely different from extra-firm regular tofu.

As to it causing cancer, I decided I would rather the negative health risks of tofu than the ones from meat. Tofu isn't going to give me BSE, for example. Wikipedia, while not authoritative, doesn't seem overly concerned.

Any time you want to talk, feel free to poke me on AIM.

[Luet]

Thanks so much! I actually can't say that I remember much about the tofu that I've tried...it was awhile ago and just wasn't very good. I guess I need to give it some more tries and you have some good suggestions. I pm'd you and maybe we can talk through email because I do have more questions. Thanks!

[Wil]

As to it causing cancer, I decided I would rather the negative health risks of tofu than the ones from meat.

.... I'm not even going to comment on that. *shakes head*

ETA: Damnit, I must say something.

What "health risks" from meat? I wasn't aware there were health risks. Unless we're just going with the vague and generalizing "being fat" health risk. Or, high blood pressure? Or, heart disease? So...

As to it causing cancer, I decided I would rather get cancer than be fat or have high blood pressure or suffer from heart disease.

Is that fair? Probably not. But that's what I see when I read that. It's very noble, in a ID 10 T sort of way I guess.

As a side note, isn't Tofu an Asian thing? They probably don't get cancer because of the insane amounts of tea they drink. So, perhaps you should take up drinking tons and tons of tea. Like green tea. Stay away from the dark stuff. Then perhaps the cancer risks will be much less.

[Luet]

Wil, if you notice, I specifically asked for advice from vegetarians. And while you are welcome to comment on any topic, you might want to keep in mind how deeply you stuck your foot in your mouth earlier in this one...