Do you eat meat?

[zeroguy]

I do not. I use/consume animal products that do not require killing[1] the animal, though. I'm wondering how many at pweb fall into each camp.

This is not intended to be a thread to debate the merits or moral/ethical reasons to not eat meat, but hey, do with the thread what you will. I personally believe meat consumption is wrong, but I'm not here to preach. I don't judge people that do eat meat, and in general it's not something I like to talk about.

And I kinda avoid using the term 'vegetarian', because I just don't like it. I don't know why.

[1] Okay, technically eating meat doesn't require killing an animal, since I believe you could just eat a limb or something. But it still requires permanently (negatively) altering the creature, and as far as I know nobody eats meat by just cutting off animal parts and leaving the animal alive. So I just say 'killing' up there because it's a lot quicker than saying e.g. this whole paragraph.

[Gravity Defier]

I had chicken for dinner...so yes, I do.

I tend to eat it only when I crave it -which turns out to be once or twice a month, typically- otherwise it makes me sick to my stomach.

[Wil]

Hmm. I think I've made my beliefs clear enough in the workout thread so I won't start anything here.

Though... eggs. When you eat eggs you're not KILLING life, you're PREVENTING IT. How's that make you feel?

Oh, one thing I've always thought that's potentially not so argument-inducing: An animal that is raised to be killed to be eaten has so much better quality of life than that same animal in the wild. Out in the wild it has to work to get food with the potential of going without food and it's constantly being hunted down by predators. If it is hunted down it suffers through death, and it can starve and suffer even more. It can hurt itself and also suffer through a slow and painful death. At least in captivity, at least in the United States, we attempt (not always succeed) to maintain sanitary living conditions and make everything easy on whatever it is we are breeding to eat. We give it food, shelter, and we kill it fast and painlessly. If I was an animal with.. basic eat, poop, breed, and sleep instincts I think I'd like shelter with three a day and a painless death than the alternative.

That isn't to say we couldn't do things better. Stop feeding cow parts to cows and stop giving them growth hormones and stuff.

[mazer]

When I was 5 I did not eat meat of any kind for about a year. I have no idea why because now I could not live without meat.

[jotabe]

You know, imho, it's a lot more humane eating the animal AFTER killing it
So, yeah, i don't have problem with eating animal products that require the animal's death.

[powerfulcheese04]

Just an interesting fact from my nutrition class:

Egg is considered a "perfect" source of protein because the albumin in the yolk is essentially 100% bioavailable and is almost exactly the right proportions of essential amino acids.

[puppets]

i tried not eating meat. That lasted about 3 days.

Then I broke down and ate chicken.

I rarely eat red meat though, but *shrugs*

I love to eat meat.

Oh.

Thats so..... insinuating?

[Jayelle]

Though... eggs. When you eat eggs you're not KILLING life, you're PREVENTING IT. How's that make you feel?

Wil, your ignorance abounds. Is a woman preventing life every single month she doesn't get pregnant? Eggs aren't all meant to be fertilized.

[locke]

yes, everyday, about two or three times (plus eggs at least four times a week). My parents were raised on farms, I've gathered eggs and helped slaughter chickens, hunted small game, helped dress out and process larger game and have fished all my life and been cleaning fish since I was eight or nine. We don't hunt or fish for sport. we don't necessarily need the meat (in the sense that we would starve) but it is something we enjoy and a nice relief from buying meat. so I'm from a culture that has absolutely no qualms about naming a critter and later eating it. in my family we've done this most often with cattle (called T-Bone) and swine (called Pork and Chop). This is fairly typical of farm folk in my opinion. animals are not people, cats almost are people, but then cats aren't kosher to eat... so I draw the line at cats.

I have a great deal of respect for eating meat and understand completely the life that it requires to bring sustenance to my life. That said i don't engage in any sort of animistic, "thanking" of the animal. Eat or be eaten is part of the world, and I am a part of that, I don't think it makes me wrong or less human, from my perspective it's just an incidental part of being.

[Eddie Pinz]

I pretty much love all types of animal products. Red meat, chicken, fish. I don't think I could live without it, especially steak. I love a good steak. I can't actually remember my last full meal that didn't involve some type of meat.

[Luet]

Oh, one thing I've always thought that's potentially not so argument-inducing: An animal that is raised to be killed to be eaten has so much better quality of life than that same animal in the wild. Out in the wild it has to work to get food with the potential of going without food and it's constantly being hunted down by predators. If it is hunted down it suffers through death, and it can starve and suffer even more. It can hurt itself and also suffer through a slow and painful death. At least in captivity, at least in the United States, we attempt (not always succeed) to maintain sanitary living conditions and make everything easy on whatever it is we are breeding to eat. We give it food, shelter, and we kill it fast and painlessly. If I was an animal with.. basic eat, poop, breed, and sleep instincts I think I'd like shelter with three a day and a painless death than the alternative.

Sorry but I think you were wrong about this not being argument inducing. I don't think you would rather be an animal raised to be eaten if you were a little more informed about how they are treated. I just can't even believe someone would say what you said...wow.

Some sources to get informed if you are so inclined:
Meat Market: Animals, Ethics, and Money
Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry

[Slim]

I eat meat. I like my steak well-done, however.

My first mission companion was Vegan (no animal products), but he decided to make an exception for his mission, so he wouldn't have to burden people we have dinner with. He would use orange juice on his cereal instead of milk.

Another missionary I knew was just vegetarian, but he wouldn't eat meat because if he tries it makes him gag. It's just that gross to him.

Is eating meat wrong? I remember a story once where they decided to ban hunters from killing the poor deer on some island one year. The deer ate all the food, and so most died of starvation over the winter.

But is it wrong? Maybe. But I'm going to enjoy my steak until I someone convinces me it really is wrong.

[Oliver Dale]

No.

[Eaquae Legit]

I don't eat meat, but I'm not particularly fanatical about it. Tonight a friend had chicken korma and I took a taste of the sauce because I was curious and I don't care if it "may contain traces of meat and/or other meat products." But that's about the extent of things. I've always sort of believed that if your meals absolutely must contain a certain thing (like salt, for example), then you haven't done it right. So while I understand enjoying a steak, I can't comprehend absolutely requiring meat at every meal.

I like to think I'm fairly pragmatic about my dietary choices.

[Claire]

Oh, one thing I've always thought that's potentially not so argument-inducing: An animal that is raised to be killed to be eaten has so much better quality of life than that same animal in the wild. Out in the wild it has to work to get food with the potential of going without food and it's constantly being hunted down by predators. If it is hunted down it suffers through death, and it can starve and suffer even more. It can hurt itself and also suffer through a slow and painful death. At least in captivity, at least in the United States, we attempt (not always succeed) to maintain sanitary living conditions and make everything easy on whatever it is we are breeding to eat. We give it food, shelter, and we kill it fast and painlessly. If I was an animal with.. basic eat, poop, breed, and sleep instincts I think I'd like shelter with three a day and a painless death than the alternative.

This is just obviously not true.

[Wil]

Wil, your ignorance abounds. Is a woman preventing life every single month she doesn't get pregnant? Eggs aren't all meant to be fertilized.

Did I forget the sarcastic-marking winking face? Let me check... nope I didn't. You must have missed that. Let me throw in a few more for good measure.

Sorry but I think you were wrong about this not being argument inducing. I don't think you would rather be an animal raised to be eaten if you were a little more informed about how they are treated. I just can't even believe someone would say what you said...wow.

Hey now.. just.. hey. I didn't say we always succeed at giving the animals a good quality of life. In fact I recall saying "not always succeed". I do not approve of most meat that is sold as it is really nothing more than just lining up game to die and pumping them full of drugs. I rather like the free range organic meats and animal products. Those free rangers sure have a nice life, though.

I don't really like reading books specifically on certain subjects that don't attempt to provide both positive and negative looks or that aren't scientific in nature. It's kind of like reading a book written by a liberal about conservatives or reading a book written by a conservative about conservatives. Sort of... hmm... biased isn't it?

Also, see:

Is eating meat wrong? I remember a story once where they decided to ban hunters from killing the poor deer on some island one year. The deer ate all the food, and so most died of starvation over the winter.

Exactly. EXACTLY.

This is just obviously not true.

Obviously.


I didn't MEAN it to cause an argument. It's not argument inducing unless other people decide to argue it. I actually kind of thought many, if not most, would agree with the common knowledge that, for the most part, living in the wild is a lot tougher and more painful and slow-death causing than living in captivity. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT approve of abusing them. I'm sure it happens but it doesn't mean it happens everywhere. If you don't eat meat because you decide not to, or because you don't like meat, or because your religious or family beliefs/habits prevent it so be it. Not eating meat because of their poor treatment is just silly as you can get free range/organic meats where the animals have GLORIOUS lives.

[mr_thebrain]

i like-a the meat.

seriously i eat meat practically every day.

i also have no qualms about taking a life or preventing a life. especially when it comes to food.

i would totally make a good cannibal.




best not come near me when it's time to feed. just to be sure.

[Oliver Dale]

Is eating meat wrong? I remember a story once where they decided to ban hunters from killing the poor deer on some island one year. The deer ate all the food, and so most died of starvation over the winter.

I don't mean to argue, but animal cruelty is not the only reason why eating meat may be considered 'wrong.' There are other moral issues at stake: health, religious, environmental, humanitarian, etc.

Even so, your above anecdote is directly due to human interference. If left to their own devices, the deer population would quite likely readjust itself in tune with the local biospheric wildlife ratio and mortality rates would return to normal by the next season.

[Luet]

I don't really like reading books specifically on certain subjects that don't attempt to provide both positive and negative looks or that aren't scientific in nature. It's kind of like reading a book written by a liberal about conservatives or reading a book written by a conservative about conservatives. Sort of... hmm... biased isn't it?

I agree, except that the only people who seem to care enough to research the topic and write books about it are those with a strong motivation - in this case, vegetarians.

I'm actually not a vegetarian, only because I don't care that much one way or another and I'm not disciplined enough to get my nutrients from other places. But I'm not deluded enough to think that my food is coming from happy-fun land, or rich enough to always buy free-range, organic meat. The VAST majority of food industry animals in this country are kept and processed in pretty horrid conditions.

What you said was:

"An animal that is raised to be killed to be eaten has so much better quality of life than that same animal in the wild."

And when Claire said that was obviously not true, you said "Obviously." If you know that it is not true, why state it as if you believed it wholeheartedly? You seem confused.

[powerfulcheese04]

I eat meat, but I don't particularly care either way.

I eat meat because it's easier for me. Honestly, I'm not very good at planning meals (because I just really don't have the time for that) so being a vegetarian would be bad for me right now because I wouldn't manage to get all the right nutrients.

I did, however, eat as a vegetarian for the 2 months I was in Africa. I just can't handle it when my food still looks like the animal it came from. I thank everything good when I have a boneless, skinless chicken breast now. (As opposed to a feathered random 1/8th of a chicken.) Also, the vegetables were of significantly higher quality than the meat in Africa.

[Wil]

I agree, except that the only people who seem to care enough to research the topic and write books about it are those with a strong motivation - in this case, vegetarians.

Vegetarian propaganda. Just as bad as political propaganda. >.>

I'm actually not a vegetarian, only because I don't care that much one way or another and I'm not disciplined enough to get my nutrients from other places. But I'm not deluded enough to think that my food is coming from happy-fun land, or rich enough to always buy free-range, organic meat. The VAST majority of food industry animals in this country are kept and processed in pretty horrid conditions.

I never said anything about happy-fun land. It's just I highly, HIGHLY doubt the majority of animals are in "pretty horrid conditions". It is about the money, and it's not financially feasible to let the cows live in bad conditions as it hurts the bottom line. The worse the conditions the worse the stock the worse the output the worse the quality the worse the consumer base.

I already said we shouldn't pump cows full of drugs and feed cow brains to cows. The vast majority don't let their animals wade around in their own poo or keep them dirty. The vast majority don't harm the cows until they kill them. Not only because of government regulations but ALSO because, again, it's not financially feasible.

Organic meat isn't THAT much more expensive. Up to half, perhaps, but it doesn't always have to be that much unless you live out in the middle of nowhere. A pound of organic hamburger meat costs between $4.99 and $8.99 depending on how many blind monks massaged the cows. Not that much worse depending on what quality of meat you normally buy that isn't organic.

What you said was:

"An animal that is raised to be killed to be eaten has so much better quality of life than that same animal in the wild."

And when Claire said that was obviously not true, you said "Obviously." If you know that it is not true, why state it as if you believed it wholeheartedly? You seem confused.

Actually I said "Obviously. ". Again, silly internet for not transporting sarcasm correctly.

Constant danger, being eaten alive, falling and dieing slowly, and starvation. Or, getting solid meals and water with a quick and painless death. Perhaps not as good as BEING FREE, but I don't see the cows complaining, and it's definitely an easier life free of pain and suffering.

[puppets]

Brain, you always cracked me up.

And anyways, what do you mean you would make a good cannibal?

I thought you were one?

But then again, you don't consider a fetus as a person, do you?

[Claire]

This is just obviously not true.

Obviously.


I didn't MEAN it to cause an argument. It's not argument inducing unless other people decide to argue it. I actually kind of thought many, if not most, would agree with the common knowledge that, for the most part, living in the wild is a lot tougher and more painful and slow-death causing than living in captivity. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT approve of abusing them. I'm sure it happens but it doesn't mean it happens everywhere. If you don't eat meat because you decide not to, or because you don't like meat, or because your religious or family beliefs/habits prevent it so be it. Not eating meat because of their poor treatment is just silly as you can get free range/organic meats where the animals have GLORIOUS lives.

I don't eat meat because of the poor treatment of animals in meat producing factories. I would eat free range/organic meat if I could travel to the farm and make sure that the animals were being killed humanely but even though most of the meat sold at places like Trader Joe's and Whole Foods is "organic", that doesn't necessarily mean that the animals were treated well OR had "glorious" lives. So because I am a poor college student and can't afford to travel to the source, or have my own farm to ensure that the animals are treated the way I would like them to be treated, I do not eat meat at all. Perhaps when I am older and can ensure my meat comes from local farmers and not from a slaughterhouse I will switch back to being a carnivore. If I had any gumption I wouldn't eat any animal products because milk cows and egg chickens aren't treated any better than those raised for slaughter, but I guess I don't care enough to completely sware off those products, and I do worry about my own health. But to say that the meat factories would make more money by treating the animals humanely is not true. The people who want high quality meat buy it for increased prices from local farms, but most people don't need their meat to be the highest quality, and so they buy it from places that crowd their animals in poor conditioned areas with no room to roam, and feed the on the unsellable remains of previously killed animals.

[locke]

I didn't MEAN it to cause an argument.

actually, I think you did.

The VAST majority of food industry animals in this country are kept and processed in pretty horrid conditions.

This is true.

and it's not financially feasible to let the cows live in bad conditions as it hurts the bottom line. The worse the conditions the worse the stock the worse the output the worse the quality the worse the consumer base.

trying to decide if I should type up a lecture. Demand for lower prices, low quality feed and a short life span of beef cattle determine the quality of their conditions. Since the cattle will be shipped to a slaughtering plant and mixed in with everything else the farmer will get a per pound flat rate for the 'hanging weight' of their cattle. small farmers across the country may raise anywhere from 100-1000 cattle here and there, but most of the meat you see in your local top-valu mart will be from massive factory farms that raise 10,000 to 100,000 cattle at a time. these are not treated properly, the treatment they undergo is downright sickening. Federal regulations about the health impacts of this encourage the factory farms and discourage the small farmer (see NSAIDS) due to the immense lobbying power and wealth of the factory farms. the only effective health regulations made in recent times that caused reforms in factory farms was due to pressure from mcdonalds demanding a certain quality/safety in their meat after consumer pressure and fear of a Jack in the Box esque incident. Wal Mart has also done much in this regard. meanwhile, the federal government has for the most part pursued a policy of deregulation that makes it easier for animals to be treated more poorly with less accountability. Be thankful McDonalds is more afraid of lawsuits and classaction cases than the factory farms are of a recall because that corporate fear is whats keeping some health standards in place.

[Rei]

While I enjoy eating meat, be it wild or farmed, red meat, poultry, or fish, I rarely do. Part of it is that meat is expensive and I am attempting to be more frugal. I also am lazy and don't feel like putting the effort into prepping the meat nicely, often. And in general I feel no need to have it all that often. Usually my meat consumption is limited to when I eat out, right now.

[Luet]

Wil, why do you insist on acting like you are an authority on topics when you obviously don't know what you're talking about? You are being contradicted by numerous people who have read/experienced/learned more about this than you have. Keep in mind what locke posted earlier about his background, growing up on a farm and in the middle of farming country, so I would guess that he knows more about this topic than the average person.

[Wil]

Topic. Singular. It's also how I learn. You're not an authority on it either, really. Locke is probably the closest to be an "authority" simply because he has had first hand experience with it. What you were doing was more like spitting out animal-abuse fliers and what I was doing was being like the ignorant recipient and enacting my human right to discuss and question. No offense intended, of course.

actually, I think you did.

Don't go telling me what you think I meant, now. I didn't MEAN it to cause an argument or get others panties in wads. It's not my fault many of you guys are just naturally argumentative people and no longer have cowpoodle to spit on.

[locke]

I didn't grow up on a farm (unless you count long lazy summers where weeks stretched out like months but were over all too fast, so awesome) but both of my parents did. but yeah I've spent a lot of times on farms and have a lot of relatives that still live on farms, though none are able to make a go of it in today's market anymore, other than raising a handful of beef cattle for themselves and selling off hay for some christmas cash.

[locke]

to generalize, making an antagonistic 'claim' for one side of a topic which is asking people to delineate themselves as one or another is pretty much how a lot of arguments start. It appeared you were trying to goad a response/discussion, even if that was not your conscious intent you were pressing buttons on this issue that generate a response.

[Wil]

Probably, yeah. Even though the summation of what I said was: If an animal was affected by the stress, pressure, and pain/suffering it endures out in the wild then living in captivity should be easier on it because it gets to eat and die quickly and easily. I also stated that we TRY and NOT ALWAYS SUCCEED at making animals meant to die have an easy life. I finished up by remarking at how it's disgusting that we feed cow to cow and we pump them full of drugs.

It's not exactly like I just out right and blatantly made a completely biased and unsupported comment on one side of the fence while hitting you with a stick. I attempted to make it as two-sided as I could and I felt like I achieved that while being minimally rude and loud.

Besides, nobody has really said WHAT the animals go through yet. What are these HORRIBLE LIVING CONDITIONS that everyone seems to know that happens IN THE VAST MAJORITY of farms? The way you guys talk it makes it sound like the cows are chained and hung from the ceiling, are fed via stomach tubes, and are regularly used as punching bags.

I'd really appreciate it if someone could perhaps tell me this and then link me to some sources that back up these claims that aren't vegetarian propaganda and seemingly biased books. The less "Slaughterhouse" in the title the better.

<-- See this smiley? It is my attempt at placing a friendly cover on the arguments that seem to naturally appear. I do not wish to argue, I wish to discuss. I wish to understand. I wish that, if you believe me wrong, you would discuss what I am missing with me without all the "your ignorance abounds", "you should be more informed", "that's just obviously not true", and what essentially amounts to 'I'm right, shut up' with the occasional insult thrown in attitude. Not all discussions are arguments guys. Not everyone is trying or even wishes to argue. You guys all need vacations or something because everything someone says counter what you believe is either insulted or treated like an outsider and an idiot.

Kind of funny how all the most well liked and friendliest ones here are the ones that never say anything against anyone else or say it in a completely jesting attitude. You all have your "cliques", and within these "cliques" everyone agrees. So obviously there will be multiple people arguing against the sole person to counter.

[puppets]

In a way I kinda agree with the last thing Wil said. Most livestock raised and bred to feed aren't abused. There are cases where they are, but for the most part they aren't, not in The U.S. at least. Mainly cause in every state, there is some form of legislature protecting livestock I believe.

Now don't get me started on Australia or the Middle East, or most of Eastern Europe, because they have no animal protection rights.

Then again, America makes most of its money through exports and imports, so I wouldn't be surprised if we imported meat from out of country, in which case it is more than likely abused animals, and I wouldn't be surprised if we exported the majority of the meat from America, to turn a much better profit.

Now I have no proof of my claims, but judging from standard American enterprising, that would be my guess.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure there are certain guidelines that are set for livestock bred to be packaged for our consmption.

[Syphon the Sun]

The way you guys talk it makes it sound like the cows are chained and hung from the ceiling, are fed via stomach tubes, and are regularly used as punching bags.

Only in Philadelphia, where the Italian Stallion reigns supreme.

[Wil]

Only in Philadelphia, where the Italian Stallion reigns supreme.

LOL! That was in the back of my mind when writing that. >.>

[zeroguy]

Not all discussions are arguments guys. Not everyone is trying or even wishes to argue.

You could prove you're not trying to argue by not responding to what people say to you.

I also want to congratulate Ollie on having the best post in this thread.

[Dr. Mobius]

Yes.

Considering how much processed junk I eat, I doubt I'd have the right to complain about the little bit of supposedly real food in my diet if I wanted to, anyway.