On forgiveness, etc

[Jayelle]

I'm sorry, but most people I know don't go around praying for serial killers.

Obviously you have not been to many Catholic churches. And I don't mean the ones that pray for serial killers to be executed.

Or any church, apparently.

Okay, you just made me think that religion is about 150% percent more f****** up than I already thought it was. Which is pretty intense. s***.

I couldn't let this go, but I'm not going to respond to it in it's current thread. So, I'm starting a new one...

I don't see how that's messed up (if you'll excuse my milder language). Christianity is about forgiveness. It's about knowing that you're screwed up and finding hope in a God who wipes it clean- it is the very core of our faith. I can't imagine how this is a surprise to you, Eriador, unless (as I've always suspected) you have very little idea what Christianity is.
Forgiveness it's what we want for everyone, including the worst of sinners (serial killers, in this example). Everyone is human, everyone deserves a second chance.

[Eaquae Legit]

And it doesn't mean excusing or accepting evil deeds. When we pray for people who do horrible things, like serial killers, we pray for their repentance and regret. We also pray for their families and friends and all the people affected by the tragedy. Christianity is not punitive, at its heart, despite what some of the noisier sects would have you believe.

[Rei]

Also, prayer does not mean asking God for success in their every endeavor. Prayer without question also includes praying that their lives will be turned around and that they will be changed people.

[Wil]

Forgiving someone for using me, or lying to me, or hurting me accidentally, or otherwise unintentionally causing me harm is one thing. Forgiving someone for trying to kill me, or forgiving someone for RAPING ME, or forgiving someone for hurting me intentionally is quite another. Do serial murders, or serial rapists, deserve forgiveness? Do pedophiles deserve forgiveness?

Forget God for a second. Do those people deserve to be forgiven by the victim? Do those people deserve to be forgiven by the family of the victim? Do those people deserve to be forgiven by the church of the victim? Do those people deserve forgiveness by mortals?

Some would argue that those people just don't know what they're doing! Or that it's simply in their nature and there is nothing they can do about it. They are not children, after all. We forgive children for throwing food, for stealing, for hitting, etc because they do not know any better. A good parent is able to teach their children morals and can forge an understanding within the child that doing these things is wrong. As they get older the child learns that killing, raping, pillaging, in this modern society is wrong, immoral, illegal.

However, these people, these monsters, these beings of negative creation are grown adults and have lived in a society where at one time or another have been shown that these acts are immoral and illegal. That taking part in these acts can lead to punishment; incarceration or even death. Do they deserve forgiveness from our kind?

Now, the exact situation is of us praying to God to forgive these people. Is this wrong? Perhaps not. But it is not truly up to us mortals to decide upon if someone should be forgiven or not, is it? In death, perhaps these sinners repent to God and are forgiven. Or perhaps they are sent to hell. I personally believe that if one is to pray to God about these immoral, sinning mortals then instead of praying for forgiveness they pray for them to be judged justly in Heaven.

[Jayelle]

If we all get what we deserve, who shall escape death?

Forgiveness is never deserved. It's also not saying "what you did was okay". What people do is wrong. We all do wrong things. People rape and murder, they also lie and cheat on thier homework and say cruel things.
Forgiveness can lead to healing - resentment and revenge does not.

Just as cruelty is part of being human, so are grace and mercy. Mercy being not getting what we deserve and grace being getting more then we deserve.

Let me tell you a story:
When I was about 20 years old, I was home for the summer and I didn't have a job yet. I was dead broke and so I stole money- $20 - from my mom's purse so I could go out with friends. It was stupid and wrong and I knew it was. To make a long story short- she found out. I felt terrible, I cried and apologized. She didn't punish me, instead she forgave me. Then she did something more. Since she knew I was strapped for cash, she gave me a gift - $50.
Mercy. Grace.

It wasn't what I deserved, but it has changed the way I live way more then any punishment ever could.

[Rei]

You cannot truly forget God in this equation. And even if you did, you would find that people who hold grudges suffer from greater stresses and it poisons their being. But the reason you absolutely *cannot* leave God out of the equation is that God is willing to forgive anyone -- absolutely *anyone* -- who turns to Him repentant. And so we must be willing to forgive anyone, no matter what they do.

Of course, that only mentions those who are repentant. Those who do not repent, though, we must still forgive. Consider the words of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those who sin against us." "Well, y'see, Lord... that guy wasn't really sorry for what he did, so I didn't forgive him. That other guy wasn't either! So about that whole forgiving me as I forgive others thing -- those guys don't count, right?"

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying their actions should be condoned remotely. I'm not saying you should not feel hurt, betrayed, shattered, or destroyed inside by what was done against you and those close to you. But I am saying that as Christians, we are required to forgive the person who has injured us, regardless of whether they are repentant or not.

It's not a question of who deserves it or not. It's a question of what God requires of us.

[Vergil]

Not only can you not forget God, but you cannot forget the person who was wronged.

The power of forgiveness does not just rest in the deed done, in someone being forgiven and knowing that, but also in the ability to shape the forgiver into a more compassionate, kind, and more human person. There are plenty of examples of this, from Holocaust victims to the Amish.

Perhaps, that is where the best power for humanity rests. "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." It's not just in the absolution of wrong or sin or whatever, but the ability to restore a system of atonement, not of vengeance or violence or reciprocal wronging. As Tevye replies to the adage, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth": "Very good. That way the whole world will be blind and toothless."

[jotabe]

Btw, in Catholic Christianism, receiving forgiveness requires several steps:
-Conscience self-examination.
-Pain on the evil caused.
-Purpouse to make ammends.
-Acknowledging (to the priest) the evil caused.
-Fulfilling the penance.

(and lately, penance isn't about praying 5 hailmarys or so, but depending on the kind of sin, it often includes making ammends).

So, it's not about forgiving the person who did evil, just like that. The person who did evil has to be honestly repentant, seeking forgiveness, and willing to make up for what they did.

[Azarel]

Do any of you know the troubles South Africa has had with racism?

The crimes white people have committed against black people and vice versa? When Mandela got out and got in control, he pleaded with the country to not take revenge, and not harbour resentment for past offences.

He pleaded the country to be forgiving. One white policeman was in court one day, telling of how he would bully black people. One day he went into a black family's home and took out the son, put him on a roasting spit and burned the boy alive. One year later, he returned and did the same thing to the father.

The Wife and Mother of those two men was in court that day, and as the policeman sat in regret in the dock, she came up to him to hug him, and said to the court that she wanted to take him home and be a mother to him.


So, Wil, it would seem that yes, that is what you must do. As you can see from my story, which is true by the way, that it is possible.

[Wil]

First, I resent you bolding my name! It felt like you were poking me in my chest and trying to be mean!

Second, I said that they didn't DESERVE it, not that they couldn't receive it. Though, I can see I did leave that out. I left a big part out. Perhaps they can be forgiven, but perhaps only by those that they have affected. Those with no affiliation really can't forgive him for something he didn't do to them.

Hmm... I need to ponder on this more and I'll get back to you. It's not quite so simple.. but nothing really is. I still stand by that people shouldn't pray for forgiveness for others (appending: where they weren't affected), but instead should pray that they be judged justly.

[Azarel]

First, I resent you bolding my name! It felt like you were poking me in my chest and trying to be mean!

Second, I said that they didn't DESERVE it, not that they couldn't receive it. Though, I can see I did leave that out. I left a big part out. Perhaps they can be forgiven, but perhaps only by those that they have affected. Those with no affiliation really can't forgive him for something he didn't do to them.

Hmm... I need to ponder on this more and I'll get back to you. It's not quite so simple.. but nothing really is. I still stand by that people shouldn't pray for forgiveness for others (appending: where they weren't affected), but instead should pray that they be judged justly.

Sorry I did only intend the bold to grab your specific attention.

I would agree with the forgiveness coming from the people directly affected. For people unaffected directly by a crime, if they're going to pray for anything, they should pray for healing (Physical/Emotional) of the 'victims' and the repentance and perhaps even the changing of one's life in the case of the 'culprit'.

Anything else, (in my opinion) would be self-righteous, unloving, judgemental and entirely unhelpful.

[BeansBrother]

Sorry I have not read the whole thread, but here my response goes:

I had actually just responded to a previous thread I am about to quote when I saw this. Interestingly enough...

The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief.

I am not Christian, so I do not know what the doctrine is in Christianity or for that matter in any other religion other than Judaism... which does not have an specific doctrines concerning forgiveness, but I know that unbelief should be forgiveable... but for my response on why, just see that thread.

But, with the conscious of a... well, if I use the word humanist incorrectly, I will be shamed... so I will call it a... Sam-anist (by the way, my name is Sam), I say that serial killers are d*cks, and sorry for the offensive language, but, in the case of those with mental disabilities or the lack of a frontal lobe/reason, then they are not to be forgiven, but not to be condemned either.

In the end, I use my own judgement and knowledge of the brain functions to decide whether I think someone should be punished or not (not that I have any influence on any of those things, but I hope to someday to be able to judge, because I believe I deal fairly).

[Slim]

I would say that there is a huge difference between you giving forgiveness and God (or alternatively, the Justice system) giving forgiveness.

I believe that we should forgive everyone. We need to move on, and the bitterness of holding on to it will only bring us down.

However, that doesn't mean the sinners get off free. They must still face the consequences of their actions, whatever they may be.

[MaryOutside]

In terms of human forgiveness (that is, the kind that doesn't involve deities), it is the ACT of forgiving that is most important. Whether or not the "perpetrator" ever knows what you think about him/her, it is inside ourselves that forgiveness has the greatest power. Changing our own mental and emotional processes becomes the issue. It takes a lot of inner movement to transform your opinion toward someone's worthiness, and I think it's one of our best traits as humans to be able to produce a feeling of forgiveness. I'm having trouble getting this thought out correctly. It's a VERB, not a NOUN, this morphing of emotion. You don't offer someone forgiveness like a fruit basket, you forgive them, constantly and thoroughly, and it is one of the most difficult things in the world to do.

[UnnDunn]

I think it's important to make a distinction between "holding a grudge" against someone and simply letting the negative event inform you more about that person.

Let's say your roommate/sibling/etc. steals money from you, you find out and you forgive that person... you would start putting your money in a lockbox or something, to prevent that person from stealing from you again. Does this mean you haven't forgiven them? of course not, it means you've learned that person is capable of stealing, so you must do something about that to protect yourself.

I always forgive people. Life is too short to hold grudges and time heals all wounds. But I think it'd be foolish to forget what happened or pretend as if it never did.

I'm also an atheist... or a humanist, if you prefer. Sometimes militantly so.